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Football Thread 2019/2020

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Much as fans who attend games should be considered, I don't think the sport is reserved exclusively for them.

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and what is interesting is the view that is emerging that sport is something people are happy to pay subscriptions for, but don't watch much.

 

premier league games get very small global live audiences, but do drive much larger numbers of ongoing subscriptions.

 

the appeal is glamour, the sales pitch of the best biggest league (yes with full grounds, that helps) - but those subs aren't driven off watching Burnley v Bournemouth on a Monday night.

 

the proposed CL discussions are all about adding to that glamour and attempting to get rid of the teams that the people who will pay subs don't want to see, harsh but logical.

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We're also seeing the NBA trend where players are bigger than clubs.  Ronaldo and Messi are obviously at the forefront of that, but also the likes of Pogba, Neymar, Zlatan. It will be interesting to see if we get that sort of closed shop where the biggest names can force a move whenever they want.

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14 minutes ago, Fry Crayola said:

Much as fans who attend games should be considered, I don't think the sport is reserved exclusively for them.

I agree to a point, but we’re bearly considered at all at the moment to the extent that the governing body is considering removing the competition from a sport to keep TV spectators happy. 

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19 minutes ago, Gotters said:

 

It is clearly the main concern of the game, sure clubs pay lip service to their fans but look at the % of revenue for most clubs that comes from TV, you simply don't get to take the cash and not answer to the paymaster.

 

 

It’s throwing the baby out with the bath water though, we’re saying that to please the paymaster we’ll all just agree to a yearly precession and watch the big clubs win. 
 

The paymasters can fuck off.  Would it really be a worse sport without Sky cameras?

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8 minutes ago, dr_manhattan^ said:

I agree to a point, but we’re bearly considered at all at the moment to the extent that the governing body is considering removing the competition from a sport to keep TV spectators happy. 

 

Indeed, I was about to edit my post to clarify that I think the closed shop proposals are a bag of shite, but my phone was playing up. The bastard.

 

Really, though, the issue isn't restricted to match goers. It's any fan of a club outside the current elite who suffer a glass ceiling being placed above them, regardless of what format they choose to take in the game.

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13 minutes ago, Fry Crayola said:

 

Indeed, I was about to edit my post to clarify that I think the closed shop proposals are a bag of shite, but my phone was playing up. The bastard.

 

Really, though, the issue isn't restricted to match goers. It's any fan of a club outside the current elite who suffer a glass ceiling being placed above them, regardless of what format they choose to take in the game.


Completely agree. 

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Points per game is bollocks if it allows some teams to have played more games. As you can see in the decision between Sheffield United and Manchester United. 

 

Halfway point seems fairest as everyone played equal games and equal teams. However, Watford for sure would be able to argue the point they sorted themselves out in the second half of the season. 

 

As I said before... legal mess no matter what decision is made. 

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Yeah there's going to be someone not happy. I think Lyon are considering action in France. 

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Points per game is the most accurate because it includes the most available data.

 

That is far more fair than "cancelling" the season.

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Points per game is fairest method imo.  It does not matter if some teams have played fewer games as it is calculated by by dividing their total points in the table by the number of games they have played.  So if for instance you have 2 teams on 30 points and one of them has played 30 games then they are averaging 1 point per game, but the other team has only played 29 games then they are averaging about 1.04 points per game and so would finish higher.  Not perfect I know as the game less might have been away at Liverpool, but there is not going to be a perfect way to close out the season.  

 

Finishing the table at halfway point would be my least favoured option, as it renders meaningless games played in the second half of the season.  Also there are bound to be issues with some teams in and around the relegation spots having played more of the big boys away from home than others.

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Although I think other leagues will end up incomplete because football is clearly a disparate mix of federations pulling in different directions, I'm still not sure why disruption to next season is being discounted or not mentioned in the on-going media discussions. Even a 'minor' outbreak could see another extended lockdown period so until the majority of Europe is vaccinated, the rush to make decisions now is strange. Next season has literally nothing riding on it too. Bring back the season when it is safe to do so, even if that's in the autumn or whenever.

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28 minutes ago, Ryan said:

Points per game is the most accurate because it includes the most available data.

 

That is far more fair than "cancelling" the season.

 

It's not the most accurate because it doesn't take into account the problem that someone could have played the bottom 4 or 5 clubs twice whilst a close rival didn't.

 

That's why, in my opinion, the half way point would be preferable.

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A relegated team might have played the top 6 away from home in the first half of the season, compared to the team finishing 17th who played them all at home and managed a couple of draws and a win.  Extreme example I know, but there is no perfect solution other than concluding the season once it is safe for football to return.

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31 minutes ago, Adrock said:

 

It's not the most accurate because it doesn't take into account the problem that someone could have played the bottom 4 or 5 clubs twice whilst a close rival didn't.

 

That's why, in my opinion, the half way point would be preferable.


This is a good point, we had a relatively easy run in for the last nine games, and based on our ppg against the bottom six this season we could reasonably have expected our overall ppg to rise before the end of the season. 
 

Im currently watching moneyball which may be affecting my thinking :) 

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1 hour ago, Mike1812 said:

795916426_Screenshot_20200430-2052052.thumb.jpg.ef873d03c5b74deb7e9fdb5a7ffc06e7.jpg

 

The table for option 3 is flawed because it takes the table after 19 games which is not when each team had played each other once 

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2 hours ago, Mike1812 said:

795916426_Screenshot_20200430-2052052.thumb.jpg.ef873d03c5b74deb7e9fdb5a7ffc06e7.jpg

I don't like any of these options as they all have something about them that isn't fair. You can argue all day about which one is fairer than the other but really all you're doing is arguing who to screw over.

 

And the simple fact is, a league is a single competition, comprised of lots of smaller competitions, all agreed and understood in advance. You can't change the rules part way through and claim the competition has been completed, it hasn't.

 

You can't stop a marathon with three miles left to go and declare that the person in the lead at the half way mark has won the marathon. They haven't because the marathon hasn't been completed.

 

The premier league season is 38 games for each team, playing each opponent home and away. If you can't finish the league then you can't claim it's been won.

 

1 hour ago, glb said:

Although I think other leagues will end up incomplete because football is clearly a disparate mix of federations pulling in different directions, I'm still not sure why disruption to next season is being discounted or not mentioned in the on-going media discussions. Even a 'minor' outbreak could see another extended lockdown period so until the majority of Europe is vaccinated, the rush to make decisions now is strange. Next season has literally nothing riding on it too. Bring back the season when it is safe to do so, even if that's in the autumn or whenever.

Exactly this. 'Cancelling' this season also sets a precedent for the next season if/when that gets put on hold. Take things as they come for now, try to finish the season off when possible and then see where we are.

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Finishing the season is the only fair way that will result in no arguments/legal proceedings, but the more other countries bin off the season, the more likely it becomes that we will too. Then it's choosing the best shit option. 

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The longer it goes on, the more my preference grows for giving Liverpool the trophy and voiding the rest of the season. Award every team an equal portion of the prize money pool. 

 

Promote two from the Championship, relegate nobody, adjust the format, drop the cups, do whatever it takes for a season to get back to normal, and then move on. 

 

In five years time people are going to look back and say "fuck, remember that time only an act of God could have stopped Liverpool winning the league, and then somebody held God's pint?", and that's about it.

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Personally, I think in five years time we'll be marvelling at our naivety in assuming that we would ever again be able to complete a full sporting season. 

 

There is no guarantee that there will be a vaccine, and no guarantee that contracting covid-19 confers immunity. There's not even much evidence to suggest that either is likely. Humanity has never developed a vaccination for a coronavirus, and there are already reports of people catching covid-19, recovering, and catching it again. We might be living with this permanently now. 

 

Lockdown will end, but some form of social distancing may just be how we live from now on. Big events with big crowds could possibly be a thing of the past. 

 

But then, it's 2am and I'm still awake, staring into the abyss. That could have something to do with my feelings on the matter. 

 

By the way, stopping the season at the halfway point? Fuck off we were about twelfth. 

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31 minutes ago, feltmonkey said:

Personally, I think in five years time we'll be marvelling at our naivety in assuming that we would ever again be able to complete a full sporting season. 

 

There is no guarantee that there will be a vaccine, and no guarantee that contracting covid-19 confers immunity. There's not even much evidence to suggest that either is likely. Humanity has never developed a vaccination for a coronavirus, and there are already reports of people catching covid-19, recovering, and catching it again. We might be living with this permanently now. 

 

Lockdown will end, but some form of social distancing may just be how we live from now on. Big events with big crowds could possibly be a thing of the past. 

 

But then, it's 2am and I'm still awake, staring into the abyss. That could have something to do with my feelings on the matter. 

 

By the way, stopping the season at the halfway point? Fuck off we were about twelfth. 


If it does end up being endemic with no plausible treatment then our perception of risk will change, and the priority we give to training nurses and having larger ICUs will change. We’ll end up with mandatory quarantine on international travel etc.

 

But we will end up, amongst those restrictions, accepting the risk. Outside of outbreaks, sport will resume. It isn’t like we didn’t have sports fixtures for five years following (or even during) previous pandemics.

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12 hours ago, Gotters said:

 

It is clearly the main concern of the game, sure clubs pay lip service to their fans but look at the % of revenue for most clubs that comes from TV, you simply don't get to take the cash and not answer to the paymaster.

 

 

 

£430k and £645k for League 2 and 1 clubs.

Both of those leagues rely upon a lot more than the money from the Premier League.

 

You're right about the top flight but a club like Exeter City for example rely upon ticket sales, player sales, sponsorship etc. and ticket sales dwarf that money from the Premier League.

 

 

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2 hours ago, neoELITE said:

 

£430k and £645k for League 2 and 1 clubs.

Both of those leagues rely upon a lot more than the money from the Premier League.

 

You're right about the top flight but a club like Exeter City for example rely upon ticket sales, player sales, sponsorship etc. and ticket sales dwarf that money from the Premier League.

 

 

 

fair points, at the lower levels you're bang on that its less about TV and more about crowds/sponsorship - which is of course all fucked too unless the crowds before were so small they all were able to socially distance anyway. 

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I talked about a crowd 'laugh track' before in this thread, CGI fans takes that to a whole new level, it'll be just like FIFA with the same group of 20 people copy and pasted and looping thru their 3 frames of animation.

 

I can see how it works for a single camera but will be much harder for when the camera changes, which happens a lot. Wonder if they'll green screen up the stands (which may also push to only a few stadia being used)

 

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league-project-restart-sky-bt-sport-tv-crowds-cgi-behind-closed-doors-2608326

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Not sure it’ll be that hard to cope with camera changes. Don’t they already do this with CG ad hoardings and sometimes displaying stuff “painted” on the actual pitch?

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6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Not sure it’ll be that hard to cope with camera changes. Don’t they already do this with CG ad hoardings and sometimes displaying stuff “painted” on the actual pitch?

 

maybe not that hard to just paint in a flat looking 2D crowd panel, but it'll be hard to not make it look shit and quite jarring I suspect, especially when you go to player close ups at set pieces etc, long shots will be OK.

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I'd rather watch the action in an empty stadium as is than have superimposed fans in some vain attempt at generating an atmosphere for the home viewer.

 

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I think one of the German clubs fans have paid for cardboard cutouts of themselves to be put up in the stadium when/if pay resumes. 

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I don't think from a technical standpoint adding fake fans in would be a massive challenge. Close-ups and celebrations near the touchline would be a bit dicey, but wide shots would be fine. I don't think it would be good though – I vaguely remember an England game where green screen hoardings were being used so that advertising could be customised for different markets and it gave the nation a collective migraine. 

 

It's the same argument as adding fan noise though. What's the point? It's technically feasible, but once fixtures become events that need to be grimly fulfilled then we may as well not bother. Try your best to finish this season as best we can so that it's been contractually completed, and if we still can't have fans then pause indefinitely. The clamour to press on in empty grounds for TV audiences is a can of worms that will kill whatever vestiges of the community based sport it once was forever. 

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