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39 minutes ago, dr_manhattan^ said:

There's absolutely bias, it's human nature, it won't be conscious but it's there.  VAR should be helping to smooth it out.

 

Why would there "obviously" be bias?  The bias is yours - you've decided that the big clubs get all the decisions, and every time one does you point it out.  Every time a big club gets a contentious one go against them, you remain mysteriously quiet.  A subsection of fans from every club are convinced that there is a conspiracy against their team.  They're always wrong.

 

Edit - incidentally, this is what I said at the time of the offside goal in the United thread - 

Quote

Is his toe offside?  This should be a goal.  Fucking stupid VAR, I'd be furious if I was a Palace fan, with that and the penalty.  We've been so lucky.

 

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1 minute ago, feltmonkey said:

 

Why would there "obviously" be bias?  The bias is yours - you've decided that the big clubs get all the decisions, and every time one does you point it out.  Every time a big club gets a contentious one go against them, you remain mysteriously quiet.  A subsection of fans from every club are convinced that there is a conspiracy against their team.  They're always wrong.

 

I think I said the Liverpool goal at Villa should have stood.  I can't remember many more because there are fewer of them.  Oh the Sheffield United goal at Villa park too.

 

There is bias in every decision we make, of course it's not intentional, but it would be naive to think otherwise and of course an official only gets one chance to see an incident from one angle which may not be ideal, VAR should be helping but it's making it worse.  Plus it's worse for people in the stadium.

 

And yes, we have been treated worse than most this season by the officials, as have Sheffield United.

 

Doesn't feel like a level playing field this season, I've been going to watch Wolves for over 26 years now and this is the only season I've felt like this.

 

They've fucked the sport this season, and I realise it's probably less obvious if you happen to be on the other side of it.

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47 minutes ago, spork said:

 

Firstly, where were you when Romeu didn't get sent off for that tackle on Greenwood on Monday?


The honourable gentleman is doing a stand up job of avoiding this tricky question. VAR is shit, but it’s shit for everyone. Get over it.

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1 minute ago, ckny said:


The honourable gentleman is doing a stand up job of avoiding this tricky question. VAR is shit, but it’s shit for everyone. Get over it.

Sorry I'm going to have to go full on Wenger here, I can't remember who that was against now.  I think I heard the player should have gone for sure.

 

As I say, the shit isn't evenly spread.

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17 minutes ago, dr_manhattan^ said:

 

There is bias in every decision we make, of course it's not intentional, but it would be naive to think otherwise 

 

 

You've said nothing to provide any evidence that there would be a bias towards the big clubs.  Just making vague statements like this actually harm your argument, as they point towards your own bias.  There is a very obvious reason why you would be biased in the way you see things - you support a team competing with Man Utd for the Champion's League spots.  

 

We've had plenty of VAR  decisions go against us this season as well.  The non red card for Romeu in the last match, a last-minute equaliser for Sheff Utd that was controlled with the arm, the penalty given when the ball hit Bailly's shoulder, and quite a few "how was that not a penalty?" moments.  For the most part they have been in games that we've ended up winning anyway, so they don't get brought up.  We've also had some really lucky ones go for us, obviously.  VAR is shit.  There is no conspiracy.

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26 minutes ago, feltmonkey said:

 

You've said nothing to provide any evidence that there would be a bias towards the big clubs.  Just making vague statements like this actually harm your argument, as they point towards your own bias.  There is a very obvious reason why you would be biased in the way you see things - you support a team competing with Man Utd for the Champion's League spots.  

 

We've had plenty of VAR  decisions go against us this season as well.  The non red card for Romeu in the last match, a last-minute equaliser for Sheff Utd that was controlled with the arm, the penalty given when the ball hit Bailly's shoulder, and quite a few "how was that not a penalty?" moments.  For the most part they have been in games that we've ended up winning anyway, so they don't get brought up.  We've also had some really lucky ones go for us, obviously.  VAR is shit.  There is no conspiracy.


In your totally unbiased opinion this is 100% not a handball:

 

4470DE39-A8B6-476F-87DF-EA5271F774D9.thumb.jpeg.ba2b1d319fce3e635548891eb10f890b.jpeg

 

But this 100% is:

 

6E8D10A1-1D64-4285-948F-2BDE1F6A91F1.jpeg.5c3a745df3f85234ee4dbab750a6bd7d.jpeg
 

Ok.

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2 minutes ago, dizogg said:


I picked the 2 examples of handballs from the post I quoted. Keep up mate.

 

And you're suggesting the picture where the ball is clearly touching the Sheffield United players arm isn't 100% a handball?

 

Not really worth keeping up with that sort of analysis is it mate.

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22 hours ago, dizogg said:


In your totally unbiased opinion this is 100% not a handball:

 

4470DE39-A8B6-476F-87DF-EA5271F774D9.thumb.jpeg.ba2b1d319fce3e635548891eb10f890b.jpeg

 

But this 100% is:

 

6E8D10A1-1D64-4285-948F-2BDE1F6A91F1.jpeg.5c3a745df3f85234ee4dbab750a6bd7d.jpeg
 

Ok.

 

No, I am biased, that's part of my point.  I don't know why I would expect you to understand nuance, so I should have realised I'd have to explain.  Fans of every club think decisions go against them.  We all see marginal decisions that go against our club (or towards a club we have an irrational hatred of if you're that kind of person) as wrong even though in reality in most cases it's a subjective decision that's down to the interpretation of the individual.  Genuine miscarriages of justice in sport are relatively rare, that's why we all remember things like Maradonna's handball against England, or Henry's handball against Ireland, or the Lampard goal against Germany.  Both those handballs in the photos above could have gone either way, really.  Both the decisions in the United - Palace match were marginal.  We all remember these marginal decisions that go against our clubs as points of frustration.  Many fans will remember these as great injustices, and forget the ones that go in their favour, which creates a narrative of having been hard done by by the officials, whether that's onfield referees or VAR.  There are Man Utd fans who will say we never get any decisions, even though lots of people in here think there's a conspiracy to give United all the penalties and disallow all goals scored against us.  Both groups are exhibiting their bias, and both are wrong.  The idea of a conspiracy either for or against any club is ludicrous.

 

In this forum, the majority of posters dislike either Man Utd or Liverpool, or both.  As a result there is a group bias when discussing decisions concerning either of these clubs.  You get a really 50-50 decision being called as stonewall and obvious in either direction by the different factions.  Very few posters are neutral when talking about these two clubs in particular, and I certainly don't claim to be one of them.  So for example if you hate Liverpool, you might start to think that they get all the decisions, so there must be a shady cabal hellbent on ensuring their success, or some kind of specious logical reason why unconscious bias would cause officials to give them the decisions.  It's quite funny how this used to be put down to the crowds, and now that there are no crowds, the same people are having to perform more complicated mental gymnastics to explain why this is supposedly still happening.  People will always feed their own narrative and never stop to consider whether it is in fact themselves who is biased or wrong.  

 

My point is not that United have been done over by VAR, I recognise that it's been kind to us on several close decisions this season (that Chelsea game - hooo boy) my point is that to start claiming that there is a conspiracy is silly.  You must have been rolling your eyes at the LiVARpool nonsense earlier in the season, right?  I don't know why I'm bothering with this to be honest as you'll probably just respond with an obnoxious remark.  I don't know how you're even still being allowed to post here after wishing a career-ending injury on a player the other day, frankly.  

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I'd rather all apparent infringements were ignored by officials unless they're substantial, in which case opposition players will usually create a fuss. Clearly Henry playing basketball is deliberate, a ball brushing the falling arm of a defender isn't. 

 

I think people are overthinking everything, like saying 'you can't arbitrarily state a margin of acceptable advantage because what if one time it falls out of that by 1 millimetre?' How often does that actually happen? Because it seems like half the games being played now have millimetre offsides, they're rarely a body or half a body over. Footballers are mostly good at judging runs, we've spent the whole season punishing them and skewing the table. 

 

I don't think 90% of handballs should be penalties, I think it should be really obvious like Scholes raising his hand once or Suarez diving in the world cup. Barry Glendenning is probably right and Mane did intend to kick the ball up at the hand of the defender to win a penalty in the last champions league final. The 'denying a goal scoring opportunity' bit always annoys me. A one on one is an opportunity, the forward expected to score and criticized if he misses. A cross is putting the ball into a dangerous area. At most an indirect free kick. No one in the world will squeal that the referee is against them if the ball being blasted at a defender's hand does not equal a penalty for them. 

 

We should accept that little accidents occassionĺy happen in games and not be militant dullards about trying for absolute supposed fairness and going too far in the process, reversing the fairness intended in the first place. We've had 2 recent cup finals, world and champions league decided by it.

 

People don't seem to agree with this, neither the indirect free kicks nor the ball hitting arms. I can't even determine if the tackles you see where a knee gently clashes or stud catches an ankle should result in a penalty. And I'll never figure out if the handball in the last world cup final was deliberate. No one can. It should be like beyond reasonable doubt. Unless it's so obvious it's funny, let it go. 

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8 hours ago, feltmonkey said:

 

You've said nothing to provide any evidence that there would be a bias towards the big clubs.  Just making vague statements like this actually harm your argument, as they point towards your own bias.  There is a very obvious reason why you would be biased in the way you see things - you support a team competing with Man Utd for the Champion's League spots.  

 

We've had plenty of VAR  decisions go against us this season as well.  The non red card for Romeu in the last match, a last-minute equaliser for Sheff Utd that was controlled with the arm, the penalty given when the ball hit Bailly's shoulder, and quite a few "how was that not a penalty?" moments.  For the most part they have been in games that we've ended up winning anyway, so they don't get brought up.  We've also had some really lucky ones go for us, obviously.  VAR is shit.  There is no conspiracy.

 

I don't think it's conscious bias, but I do think it exists in the same way as you get homer refs.

 

I don't think there is a conspiracy, I think the system of officiating  games and the rule changes this season are absolute dogshit and some clubs have suffered much worse than others.  Pointing out that sometimes it has gone against Sky six teams is fine, but it's the overall effect that is the problem over the course of the season, not one off incidents.

 

I realise I don't have the room, I understand why people want to think it's fair, I'm just not convinced it has been.

 

I'll shut up about it now.

 

Good luck to City this weekend! (I think we might need Europa League to go down to 7th)

 

Edit:- I don't think there is a conspiracy with VAR, but there is a wider set of changes to the game that are designed to appease the biggest clubs.

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it will never be fair in terms of every team gets the same number of good/bad decisions - by the nature of how teams play the top teams will get more dodgy pens as spend longer in the opponents box, and goals scored against them or pens given will be less seeing as teams spend less time attacking them and when they do will be straining to their very limits to score from  fewer opportunities (more pulling, handballs in build ups, marginal offside as journeyman strikes struggle to get past £80m defenders etc)

 

I don't think there is some conspiracy at play here - just shit implementation of VAR by the PL and some very unhelpful laws in offside and handball that are forcing them to look like cunts.

 

What is now considered contact and a foul/pen is all about our refs and not the law, its far too soft now with players routinely throwing themselves to the floor hoping it can cast some doubt on a goal being scored.

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7 hours ago, feltmonkey said:

 

No, I am biased, that's part of my point.  I don't know why I would expect you to understand nuance, so I should have realised I'd have to explain.  Fans of every club think decisions go against them.  We all see marginal decisions that go against our club (or towards a club we have an irrational hatred of if you're that kind of person) as wrong even though in reality in most cases it's a subjective decision that's down to the interpretation of the individual.  Genuine miscarriages of justice in sport are relatively rare, that's why we all remember things like Maradonna's handball against England, or Henry's handball against Ireland, or the Lampard goal against Germany.  Both those handballs could have gone either way, really.  Both the decisions in the United - Palace match were marginal.  We all remember these marginal decisions that go against our clubs as points of frustration.  Many fans will remember these as great injustices, and forget the ones that go in their favour, which creates a narrative of having been hard done by by the officials, whether that's onfield referees or VAR.  There are Man Utd fans who will say we never get any decisions, even though lots of people in here think there's a conspiracy to give United all the penalties and disallow all goals scored against us.  Both groups are exhibiting their bias, and both are wrong.  The idea of a conspiracy either for or against any club is ludicrous.

 

In this forum, the majority of posters dislike either Man Utd or Liverpool, or both.  As a result there is a group bias when discussing decisions concerning either of these clubs.  You get a really 50-50 decision being called as stonewall and obvious in either direction by the different factions.  Very few posters are neutral when talking about these two clubs in particular, and I certainly don't claim to be one of them.  So for example if you hate Liverpool, you might start to think that they get all the decisions, so there must be a shady cabal hellbent on ensuring their success, or some kind of specious logical reason why unconscious bias would cause officials to give them the decisions.  It's quite funny how this used to be put down to the crowds, and now that there are no crowds, the same people are having to perform more complicated mental gymnastics to explain why this is supposedly still happening.  People will always feed their own narrative and never stop to consider whether it is in fact themselves who is biased or wrong.  

 

My point is not that United have been done over by VAR, I recognise that it's been kind to us on several close decisions this season (that Chelsea game - hooo boy) my point is that to start claiming that there is a conspiracy is silly.  You must have been rolling your eyes at the LiVARpool nonsense earlier in the season, right?  I don't know why I'm bothering with this to be honest as you'll probably just respond with an obnoxious remark.  I don't know how you're even still being allowed to post here after wishing a career-ending injury on a player the other day, frankly.  

tl;dr

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Whether there's an unconscious bias at play or not (and TBH it's very very hard to look at this without my Wolves-tinted specs on, because some of the decisions that have fucked us over this season have been absolutely appalling) the biggest issue for me is that we have VAR, incidents are looked at in forensic detail which detracts from the game and STILL we are getting two completely unforgivable outcomes:

 

1.  Decisions are simply not consistent

2.  Some decisions are INCORRECT, and the morons in charge of VAR are having to admit so.

 

How can this be happening when the whole point of VAR was to eradicate incorrect or inconsistent decisions?  This whole mess isn't the fault of the big clubs who seem to have an alarming amount of good fortune when it comes to VAR calls (yes, yes I know - specs at the ready), but the fucking idiots who are implementing it.  It has ruined the season and will literally cost some clubs millions with wrong calls etc.  STILL we see the big talking points being incorrect or incredibly forensic VAR calls which would never ever be spotted without checking footage for several minutes to see a stud on the boot of a player not interfering with play is 0.1 cm offside.  Fans shouldn't be walking out of stadiums bemoaning the performance of VAR when the whole point of it is to clear up any indecision.  It's just completely fucked by the incompetent, clueless morons in charge of it.

 

VAR can work, but in the same way that a SpaceX rocket can work, I wouldn't expect it to if you gave the controls to my nan.  

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Just on the Dyche thing. (Apologies for lateness, yesterday was a hell of a day.)

 

1. Dyche is the highest paid person at the club by quite a distance.

2. The chairman is not "looking to sell".  He is looking for investment.  However, there are a number of things in the way the board is deliberately constituted that makes attracting outside investment difficult.  The first is that the chairman doesn't own a majority.  The second is that each director is not very rich by PL club director standards - the richest is worth around £40m, I think.  The third is that no directors are paid - any loans they make will be paid back at a low level of interest from club profits after all other expenses have been paid off.  So if you are looking for investment, then the ask is basically £lots with not much return over a long amount of time with a minimal amount of say.  Coming in as Billy Big Bags of Cash isn't going to get you very far.

3. If Dyche decides to leave, there is little better out there in terms of pay, security or control.  West Ham and Palace are the ones always touted, but he would be swapping at least one of those three things for effectively the same goal

4. He'll play attractive football if he can.  He's done it numerous times at Turf Moor.  He's not a Pulis.  Style comparisons with Allardyce are apt, because I remember that Bolton team with Jay Jay Okocha and Ivan Campo and they were great to watch.

5. He hasn't "fallen out" with the board a la Benitez.  Dyche knows he has a friendly press and he's using it as leverage to extract a bigger transfer budget, especially in the light of losing a crucial player in Jeff Hendrick and some important contract renewals coming up.  The club did have a rainy day fund but the chairman made noises about Covid wiping that out.  He's basically looking to be allowed to stretch and gamble a little bit given that the club is seemingly secure in the Premier League nowadays.

 

I now return you to your VAR chat.

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4 minutes ago, Plissken said:

Just on the Dyche thing. (Apologies for lateness, yesterday was a hell of a day.)

 

1. Dyche is the highest paid person at the club by quite a distance.

2. The chairman is not "looking to sell".  He is looking for investment.  However, there are a number of things in the way the board is deliberately constituted that makes attracting outside investment difficult.  The first is that the chairman doesn't own a majority.  The second is that each director is not very rich by PL club director standards - the richest is worth around £40m, I think.  The third is that no directors are paid - any loans they make will be paid back at a low level of interest from club profits after all other expenses have been paid off.  So if you are looking for investment, then the ask is basically £lots with not much return over a long amount of time with a minimal amount of say.  Coming in as Billy Big Bags of Cash isn't going to get you very far.

3. If Dyche decides to leave, there is little better out there in terms of pay, security or control.  West Ham and Palace are the ones always touted, but he would be swapping at least one of those three things for effectively the same goal

4. He'll play attractive football if he can.  He's done it numerous times at Turf Moor.  He's not a Pulis.  Style comparisons with Allardyce are apt, because I remember that Bolton team with Jay Jay Okocha and Ivan Campo and they were great to watch.

5. He hasn't "fallen out" with the board a la Benitez.  Dyche knows he has a friendly press and he's using it as leverage to extract a bigger transfer budget, especially in the light of losing a crucial player in Jeff Hendrick and some important contract renewals coming up.  The club did have a rainy day fund but the chairman made noises about Covid wiping that out.  He's basically looking to be allowed to stretch and gamble a little bit given that the club is seemingly secure in the Premier League nowadays.

 

I now return you to your VAR chat.

 

Good post.

 

As a Burnley fan, what would you think is the next step up and what would you need to get there?

 

I guess it would be European qualification again or a good stab at the cups, or am I wrong?

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Like many industries football is not often creative in it’s recruitment - Dyche is seen in that camp of dour managers who plays that style come what may by fans and people who appointment coaches, little consideration of what he is actually achieving.

 

Those Europa league type team fans (Arsenal included) would be up in arms if he got appointed, and why on earth would he trade Burnley for say Palace or Brighton.

 

He deserves a fallen giant with budget type club I suspect, but doubt he’d top many recruitment lists.

 

He’s in a well paid but odd spot at present, much like latter day Moyes at Everton

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I think that any set of fans who will reject him on style are idiots who haven't actually watched how his teams play.  He would take an existing Everton or Arsenal side and still improve them while playing attractive football.  Even four years after promotion, Burnley have just two players that they bought from Premier League sides.  Yet, they are unbeaten at Old Trafford in four years (scoring six times in the process), took a point at Anfield, regularly score against Chelsea.  Yes, the Wolves game was a bit hoofball, but they are a team running on fumes against a very energetic pressing side.  Needs must.

 

Dyches comments were clearly annoyance at being given a budget that yet again was predicated on finishing 17th and exiting the cups at the first attempt.

 

As for ambition, I don't think a domestic cup run is on the cards.  However, I do think that the new Europa 2 is something that everyone has been eyeing up.  Despite what the pundits will tell you, the EL run excited people inside and outside the club.  Plus we faced two of the current last 16, beating one and we should have beaten the other, except for Sam Vokes' radar being off and the half time in the away leg where the Olympiakos directors, um, reminded the officials of their responsibilities.  I think we got a taste for it and the least of the European competitions would be an interesting proposition.

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If Dyche leaves the fortunes of both Dyche and Burnley will be worse.

 

13 hours ago, Stopharage said:

The problem with VAR is that it’s over-turning ridiculously marginal calls when it’s remit is to overturn clear and obvious errors. If it takes more than 10 seconds to decide that an original decision is incorrect then it’s not a clear and obvious error. 

 

It's worth restating again that the remit for offside is NOT clear and obvious error.

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Yeah, offside is the only thing that can be judged as either being right or wrong - there shouldn't be anything subjective there. Everything else though? The inconsistencies are there for all to still debate.

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4 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Yeah, offside is the only thing that can be judged as either being right or wrong - there shouldn't be anything subjective there. Everything else though? The inconsistencies are there for all to still debate.

Is this actually the case though?  Is it possible to determine exactly when the ball leaves the player's foot?

 

I don't believe it is, and that would leave a big area open to interpretation when looking frame by frame to try to work out which frame is being chosen.

 

Plus, the system would need multiple cameras to build a 3D representation, but those frames can't be perfectly synced.

 

On top of that, the rule was developed at a time when these kinds of questions would never have been thought about, the offside rule is implicitly supposed to be judged by a human.  There is no way the people who developed it could ever have been considering frame rates and virtual slide rules.

 

They just didn't want strikers to goal hang any more.

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I don't think it helps when incidents are replayed in super slow motion, or clipped to the millisecond of contact in a robust tackle without context. When you're watching the VAR replay being edited in real-time before your eyes you can see how easy it is to manipulate things to look pretty much how you want them to. I don't think it's on purpose at all, I just don't think a couple of middle aged blokes mucking about with an edit suite is a very good way of deciding things.

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