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If you’ve already paid to see/own a film... (Endgame topic spin-off)

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22 hours ago, kerraig UK said:

Everybody who worked on my films wants you to watch them. They don't want your money. They want connection. We do this because we love telling stories. We don't want your money.

 

This sounds worryingly similar to "I can't afford to pay you but you'll get great exposure."

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2 hours ago, Mugman said:

 

Horse shit.

 

Piracy is illegal and there are more people involved in the making/release of a movie than the creatives directly involved. I'm sorry that's the case but it's true. All the shit you talk about blockbusters being the devil and stopping people seeing certain types of movies, and then you just go straight out and advocate piracy once people have spent that initial tenner? Film marketing is so key in people ever, ever, seeing your movies. Obviously. And the market is currently fucked. If everything was free on the front page of Amazon, sorry mate, ain't nobody watching your five movies unless they've been told about them. And there's less money for people to be told about them if there's no money to go into marketing. HE budgets are being slashed left right and center, so if you like a film enough that you want to watch it again, hey, buy the Blu Ray!

 

I might mean that you and the catering people on Kerraig's films don't have the connection they so crave when you've grabbed it for free but it keeps me in a job and you get something nice to keep/remember and you get to know you could be in some way funding future cool shit from people you like!

 

We should probably start a film piracy thread, rather than clog this one up...

 

 

No no no. You pay your ten pounds to own the film. You should own the film. You shouldn't own a format. A piece of plastic with a file on it. You should own the film.

I bought Lady & The Tramp on VHS for £18.99 in about 1995. I should own that film for that £18.99. I shouldn't own a useless piece of plastic. 

Its a con.

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11 minutes ago, kerraig UK said:


No i doesn't you fool. I've never made a film where crew went unpaid. Crew don't get equity.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you weren't paying your employees. It was a bit flippant of me to use the phrase "worryingly similar"; I don't mean to conflate filmmakers not being paid for their work during production, with people not paying to watch the released film.

 

The reason I said it was that your phrase "they don't want your money" seemed to characterise the people working on those films as working for the love of the job, and caring more about whether their work is seen by an audience than how many people in that audience pay to see it. Your post's focus on artists/craftsmen caring more about being seen than being paid is what made me think of all those commission horror stories.

 

8 minutes ago, kerraig UK said:

 

No no no. You pay your ten pounds to own the film. You should own the film. You shouldn't own a format. A piece of plastic with a file on it. You should own the film.

I bought Lady & The Tramp on VHS for £18.99 in about 1995. I should own that film for that £18.99. I shouldn't own a useless piece of plastic. 

Its a con.

 

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're advocating here.

 

Are you saying that once you've paid to see a film once (either in the cinema or on one home format), that payment should also entitle you to all subsequent editions of the film? (i.e. Your purchase of a Lady & the Tramp VHS should carry forward, and either Disney should send you a free copy of its most recent Blu-Ray release, or you should be able to download a pirated rip of it, guilt-free?)

 

Or are you arguing that once you have paid to see a film, you should be considered an "owner" of the film in the sense of being recognised as having contributed to its finances? (The way that Patreon contributors to YouTube channels get their names in the credits of each video?)

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8 hours ago, Nick R said:

Are you saying that once you've paid to see a film once (either in the cinema or on one home format), that payment should also entitle you to all subsequent editions of the film? (i.e. Your purchase of a Lady & the Tramp VHS should carry forward, and either Disney should send you a free copy of its most recent Blu-Ray release, or you should be able to download a pirated rip of it, guilt-free?)

 

Whilst this isn't the point that is being discussed, might there be mileage in this idea to safeguard the movie going experience in theatres. 

 

You take a family of 4 to see a movie, that's around £40.  Imagine if that also then gave you access later down the line to download a digital copy of the movie or stream a digital copy of the movie? It might be people more willing to spend money going to the Cinema, I can't be the only one who sometimes says they will wait for the Blu Ray but forgets about the Blu Ray and eventually just catches the film for free on Netflix on similar. 

 

It is probably unworkable but a 'movie ticket + streaming' combo might be an attractive proposition, particular if linked to a family cinema ticket or something. Maybe you pay a slightly higher price and in return you unlock the digital copy when released. 

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9 hours ago, Nick R said:

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you weren't paying your employees. It was a bit flippant of me to use the phrase "worryingly similar"; I don't mean to conflate filmmakers not being paid for their work during production, with people not paying to watch the released film.

 

The reason I said it was that your phrase "they don't want your money" seemed to characterise the people working on those films as working for the love of the job, and caring more about whether their work is seen by an audience than how many people in that audience pay to see it. Your post's focus on artists/craftsmen caring more about being seen than being paid is what made me think of all those commission horror stories.

 

 

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're advocating here.

 

Are you saying that once you've paid to see a film once (either in the cinema or on one home format), that payment should also entitle you to all subsequent editions of the film? (i.e. Your purchase of a Lady & the Tramp VHS should carry forward, and either Disney should send you a free copy of its most recent Blu-Ray release, or you should be able to download a pirated rip of it, guilt-free?)

 

Or are you arguing that once you have paid to see a film, you should be considered an "owner" of the film in the sense of being recognised as having contributed to its finances? (The way that Patreon contributors to YouTube channels get their names in the credits of each video?)

 

I'm saying that if you've contributed a tenner to the film at any point you should feel no guilt in watching a pirate copy if the format you contributed with is now redundant 

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10 hours ago, kerraig UK said:

 

No no no. You pay your ten pounds to own the film. You should own the film. You shouldn't own a format. A piece of plastic with a file on it. You should own the film.

I bought Lady & The Tramp on VHS for £18.99 in about 1995. I should own that film for that £18.99. I shouldn't own a useless piece of plastic. 

Its a con.

What are you talking about? You've paid £10 to see the film. Once. That's the contract you've entered into. If you want to own the film to watch forever in the format you are buying it on, there is a separate cost for that. 

 

"I paid a pound for a loaf of bread ten years ago! Now I will have bread forever thank you very very much!"

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1 hour ago, Mugman said:

What are you talking about? You've paid £10 to see the film. Once. That's the contract you've entered into. If you want to own the film to watch forever in the format you are buying it on, there is a separate cost for that. 

 

"I paid a pound for a loaf of bread ten years ago! Now I will have bread forever thank you very very much!"

 

Nope. Not the same at all. That would be "I bought one DVD, now I want as many DVD's as possible". If you paid your £10 you've fulfilled your contract with the film makers. By constantly expecting you to repay for new formats they are abusing their side of the bargain. You've just bought into the capitalist lie. 

 

Film production companies should expect to double their money on a film, they shouldnt expect a 1000% return. That is capitalism out of control.

 

I've made 10 feature films. With any one of them, if you've paid me a tenner to watch it once I dont want any more money from you for that film ever again. Pirate away.

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I'm with Kerraig on this, as someone who's paid to see this film and has the 3D blu preordered. I think if I fancied watching it tonight I would do it via the high seas, and do it guilt free. 

 

It fucks me off so much when I'm  forced to other methods to watch media I'd happily pay for right now as there's no other way. 

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57 minutes ago, cassidy said:

It fucks me off so much when I'm  forced to other methods to watch media I'd happily pay for right now as there's no other way. 

I’ve always wondered why that is? Why does the film industry artificially extend release dates for Blu-rays? Not being able to pay for something because it simply isn’t available is totally encouraging pirating. I can understand them not wanting to screw cinemas, but once its run is over it should be immediately available for home viewing.

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Cinema owners throw a wobbly every time there is mention of reducing the time to home release and threaten not to show such movies in their cinemas.

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8 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Cinema owners throw a wobbly every time there is mention of reducing the time to home release and threaten not to show such movies in their cinemas.

But it hasn't been on at the cinema for ages now, so how is it a problem?

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1 minute ago, JPL said:

But it hasn't been on at the cinema for ages now, so how is it a problem?

They fear too many people won't bother seeing movies in the cinema if there is a shorter delay. That they would be happy to wait through a short delay.

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2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

They fear too many people won't bother seeing movies in the cinema if there is a shorter delay. That they would be happy to wait through a short delay.

Bit of a weird balancing act though, as I reckon it makes a lot of people grab a pirate copy. I guess they've run the numbers though and it works out more profitable for them this way. Still stupid as fuck though.

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1 hour ago, JPL said:

I’ve always wondered why that is? Why does the film industry artificially extend release dates for Blu-rays? Not being able to pay for something because it simply isn’t available is totally encouraging pirating. I can understand them not wanting to screw cinemas, but once its run is over it should be immediately available for home viewing.

It's not just films though. There's no reason for any delay anymore other than greed as Kerraig says. 

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22 hours ago, kerraig UK said:

 

No no no. You pay your ten pounds to own the film. You should own the film. You shouldn't own a format. A piece of plastic with a file on it. You should own the film.

I bought Lady & The Tramp on VHS for £18.99 in about 1995. I should own that film for that £18.99. I shouldn't own a useless piece of plastic. 

Its a con.

 

So why should distributors invest in new technology to bring you a better experience at home? 4K re-releases are amazing. Are you saying you should get those for free if you bought the VHS in 1983?

 

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34 minutes ago, catinthehat said:

 

So why should distributors invest in new technology to bring you a better experience at home? 4K re-releases are amazing. Are you saying you should get those for free if you bought the VHS in 1983?

 

 

If you want to watch a film you've already paid for, watch the rip. If you want to own the disk buy the disk. 

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45 minutes ago, kerraig UK said:

 

If you want to watch a film you've already paid for, watch the rip. If you want to own the disk buy the disk. 

 

Nah. If you want to watch the sexy new 4K version that’s been carefully restored and remastered, you should pay for it. 

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14 minutes ago, catinthehat said:

 

Nah. If you want to watch the sexy new 4K version that’s been carefully restored and remastered, you should pay for it. 

 

Not if you paid to see it in 8k in cinemas. Or 35mm

 

I can agree that if you bought a £6 version you shouldn't get the £12 version free

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10 hours ago, catinthehat said:

 

Dude, it’s been like 3 weeks since it left the cinema. 

 

Nah, not near me. Besides, that’s not really my point. A lot of films disappear for 6 months or more before appearing on Blu-ray.

 

Maybe that’s what it is though. Are some cinemas still showing it and they’re waiting for all the stragglers before releasing the Blu-ray? Although I just read in the other Endgame thread that it’s available to stream in the US, so why not here? 

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It's still (just, admittedly) in cinemas here. I've got two showings per day in a central London cinema. Perhaps there's been a longer cinema run here? I don't know if you can still watch it in a cinema in the US.

 

But the reason for a gap between cinema and the PPV window has already been explained to you, in general. To encourage you to go to the cinema. Whether you agree with it is incidental.

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Surely we can all at least agree that if you paid for it in the cinema and you intend to buy the Blu, there's no harm in watching a pirate copy while you wait...

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21 hours ago, Thor said:

I bet mugman is a real hoot to work with/for. :coffee:

The day LeChuck has a pop at you for taking a small detail too seriously is the day you truly know you've made it...

 

The thing that annoyed me about the tone of kerraig's post was the "all of the creatives just want you to watch our films, so you should pirate them" thing. Sorry mate, it takes money to make these films in the first place, and that money comes from sales. It's not a "capitalist lie" as you put it, film's a capitalist industry. If people are going to take the time to work on a lovely new 4k version of a movie then you should absolutely pay to watch it in that format and/or own it. 

 

Maybe I take the whole thing a little too seriously, and apologies if I've been a bit blunt in some of my posts, but it pays my wages so it kinda matters to me. 

 

But yeah I can't see the danger/issue in grabbing a pirated copy while you wait for the release if you definitely are going to buy it, but a lot of people obviously wont do this. 

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