DS to have touchscreen?

[Venice Cull]

We are talking about a 3" screen here John... don't you think that hands and fingers will get in the way of the (limited) 'play area'? Not particularly good for precision movement of game characters is it? (moving your finger a tiny bit would send the player half way across the screen).

I see your concepts working better on lap top sized screens, and with games like 'Black and White' (motioning instructions using your fingers on the screen instead of a mouse).

I can see 'Wario Ware' type games working well on a touchscreen DS (you have a fraction of a second to touch the correct area of the screen when a 'badger' pops out of a hole, bit like those Arcade hammer bashing games).

[Bojangle]

All my information is genuinely made up.

Ah, I get it! All this info is true what your telling us, but due to NDA's you can't actually admit it because it'd put your job at risk. Don't worry, you never told us a thing.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

We are talking about a 3" screen here John... don't you think that hands and fingers will get in the way of the (limited) 'play area'? Not particularly good for precision movement of game characters is it? (moving your finger a tiny bit would send the player half way across the screen).

Touchpads on laptops are even smaller. It's amazing what you can do with good precision and VISUAL feedback. Its the same with he tilting mechanism, the system only needs to be tilted a few degrees.

I remember a tech\programmers demo for th PS2 analogue face buttons. You know, the ones with NO movement in them at all. The demo was nothing more than a bar which lengthened according the pressure. It was amazing how precisely you could control it with that visual feedback.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

I can see 'Wario Ware' type games working well on a touchscreen DS (you have a fraction of a second to touch the correct area of the screen when a 'badger' pops out of a hole, bit like those Arcade hammer bashing games).

Yes I think those games would work, but that would be terribly mundane use of the tech. The whole point is to stimulate different (hopefully original) types of gameplay.

There's nothing stopping developers from simply mapping a d-pad + buttons onto the lower screen and having the game run on the top one. But that wouldn't be very interesting.

[Venice Cull]

Touchpads on laptops are even smaller. It's amazing what you can do with good precision and VISUAL feedback. Its the same with he tilting mechanism, the system only needs to be tilted a few degrees.

So using one of the screens as the touchpad?

Then surely we're back to just ONE screen and a (fairly limited) controller system? A bit like a laptop with a small screen?

Won't that negate the whole 'duel screen' concept? or am I not quite grasping your concept?

[JPickford (retired mod)]

So using one of the screens as the touchpad?

Then surely we're back to just ONE screen and a (fairly limited) controller system? A bit like a laptop with a small screen?

Won't the negate the whole 'duel screen' concept? or am I not quite grasping your concept?

No you use both screens. I see your point but manipulating objects on a 3inch screen is perfectly fine. We are all perfectly capable of manipulating small objects, coins, matches etc.

[Venice Cull]

We are all perfectly capable of manipulating small objects, coins, matches etc.

Ahhhh, but only because we get sensory feedback. If you couldn't 'feel' a coin you were trying to manipulate (say, your nervous system was knackered) then you simply couldn't do it.

Like when you've been to the dentist, you can't speak because the novacane deprives you of 'feeling' in your mouth, so you keep biting your tounge, dribbling and are rendered incapable of speaking properly. Or when you wake up having slept on your arm - try picking a coin up then.

No you use both screens. I see your point but manipulating objects on a 3inch screen is perfectly fine.

But what happens when the character/object/whatever is in the top left of one of the screens? Your entire hand will be covering the viewable play area....

Maybe a 'pointer' device could work, like you get with 'Palm Pilots'?

[Cyhwuhx]

.::: Just using your fingers won't work though, not precise enough. Whenever I don't have a stylus for my PDA I use my nail instead. Never my finger. I'd imagine I will use a touchscreen DS in the same way.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Ahhhh, but only because we get sensory feedback. If you couldn't 'feel' a coin you were trying to manipulate (say, your nervous system was knackered) then you simply couldn't do it.

Yes but VISUAL feedback is very powerful.

We do stuff like this all the time with mouse games. My example with the PS2 controller shows how visual feedback gives you a lot more precision than you think.

But what happens when the character/object/whatever is in the top left of one of the screens? Your entire hand will be covering the viewable play area....

Your hand doesn't need to obscure anything. This is a handheld system everything is moveable.

Maybe a 'pointer' device could work, like you get with 'Palm Pilots'?

Nope. That would reduce you to a single point of input. No better than a mouse.

[Venice Cull]

VISUAL feedback is very powerful.

You still couldn't manipulate a coin or match just by 'looking' at your 'numb' hand though..

We do stuff like this all the time with mouse games.

On something slightly larger than a 3" screen, and using a device away from the screen (mouse/pointer on screen).

Your hand doesn't need to obscure anything. This is a handheld system everything is moveable.

Not really, I mean grab hold of your GBA now and try to get to all angles of the playing area without obscuring it. For a start your right hand you can only cover 180 degrees round the right of the screen, not the left (unless you twist your wrists - Steven Hawkings stylee).

Still, its all interesting hypothetical stuff.

[scottcr]

personally.. I think a touch screen opens up some excellent opportunities... think about it, currently, we're confined in console land to a set amount of buttons that developers must make use of. Press A to jump, press B to fire, press Y for inventory etc etc. With touchscreen and the ability to make the controls displayed context sensitive, there's so much possibilities to making games more "intuitive" and accessible. Think about it, how many times have you passed a controller to a non gamer, or even a relatively casual gamer, and they've asked "how do I jump/fire/open the door"... a programmable touchscreen could remove these issues.

I think it sounds ace.

[Venice Cull]

personally.. I think a touch screen opens up some excellent opportunities... think about it, currently, we're confined in console land to a set amount of buttons that developers must make use of.  Press A to jump, press B to fire, press Y for inventory etc etc.  With touchscreen and the ability to make the controls displayed context sensitive, there's so much possibilities to making games more "intuitive" and accessible. 

I think it sounds ace.

So we're back to one screen again.

Like a GBA, but with a customisable button layout? Not really going bring any new gaming innovations would it?

I'm sure the whole point of the DS is the new concepts that BOTH screens together will throw out.

Think about it, how many times have you passed a controller to a non gamer, or even a relatively casual gamer, and they've asked "how do I jump/fire/open the door"... a programmable touchscreen could remove these issues.

They'd now say "How do I program this touch screen?"

[JPickford (retired mod)]

K0ut VISUAL feedback is very powerful.

You still couldn't manipulate a coin or match just by 'looking' at your 'numb' hand though..

On something slightly larger than a 3" screen, and using a device away from the screen (mouse/pointer on screen).

Not really, I mean grab hold of your GBA now and try to get to all angles of the playing area without obscuring it. For a start your right hand you can only cover 180 degrees round the right of the screen, not the left (unless you twist your wrists - Steven Hawkings stylee).

Still, its all interesting hypothetical stuff.

Well we can debate these individual stream-of-conciousness little ideas till we are blue in the face. The point I'm making is that by creating genuinely different hardware with (in particular) different new control methods then almost any idea will be original and fresh. I think this is what Nintendo are getting at with DS.

There is the initial temptation to work out how to implement existing ideas using the new tech (and this is perhaps why Nintendo have stated that people will not be impressed when they hear about the new machine), but once those thoughts are banished, any remaining idea is original by default. This is why the early days of video games seem so rich in creativity compared to now. Back then there were no rules or reference points, designers had no alternative but to invent.

[Venice Cull]

Well we can debate these individual stream-of-conciousness little ideas till we are blue in the face.

It's fun though!

The point I'm making is that by creating genuinely different hardware with (in particular) different new control methods then almost any idea will be original and fresh. I think this is what Nintendo are getting at with DS.

Even more fun trying to guess. But I think the originality will come from the utilisation of the two screens, and not the control method (I'm predicting a standard D-pad configuration).

There is the initial temptation to work out how to implement existing ideas using the new tech (and this is perhaps why Nintendo have stated that people will not be impressed when they hear about the new machine), but once those thoughts are banished, any idea is original by default. This is why the early days of video games seem so rich in creativity compared to now. Back then there were no rules or reference points, designers had no alternative but to invent.

Yeah, lets just hope they CAN pull it off, and duel screens CAN create a gaming concepts the likes of which the world has never seen.

Roll on May.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Even more fun trying to guess. But I think the originality will come from the utilisation of the two screens, and not the control method (I'm predicting a standard D-pad configuration).

We'll see. Personally I can't see a single thing that Dual screens alone will provide in that direction. We've always been able to split screens in two and provide two viewpoints.

I think Nintendo are playing with us so far.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

Both screens will run an instant of Mario 64, and added up it'll be the mysterious Mario 128. Twice as fun, twice as good!

[Dude Ranch]

Isn't there supposed to be an announcement in Japan tomorrow, or the day after? To kind of demystify DS?

Personally I can't wait. If you asked me now to decide between a PSP and a DS (I had to choose just one on gut feeling) I'd have to say DS.

John, your idea about lifting something on your finger and moving it from one screen to another is superb. Not a sheep though, that would be stupid .

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Yes. Camels would be better.

[Sng]

I dunno, their comment where they basically said the DS won't appeal to many people kinda makes me not really give a shit about it right now.

I'd like to be proved wrong, of course.

[Luke]

I think the lack of physical feedback would even prevent the touch screen being used as a standard d-pad.

Although we all assume we can hit the right button because we know where it is, I bet it would actually be bloody difficult if we couldn't also feel where it was. Plus, if action is on the other screen, then at the time you won't have the chance to see where it is.

Also, without the physical feedback of a button actually being pressed it's very hard to tell if you've actually pressed it or not. Have you ever tried typing on a touch sensitive keyboard where the keys don't actually move? - it's a bloody nightmare!

[Jack]

Mechamels?

[Dude Ranch]

I dunno, their comment where they basically said the DS won't appeal to many people kinda makes me not really give a shit about it right now.

Possibly a dig at the utter shit people are buying these days? I can't believe that Nintendo would release something they don't think will sell.

And regarding touch screen controls, feedback, buttons and how a d-pad would translate (or not) when you can't see or feel it, I think this misses the point and JP has it right. Why include a second, touch sensitive screen just to replicate a d-pad? The games will be totally different. Totally.

That is if touch sensitivity is included. Has it been confirmed outside of JPs mischievous little mind?

[Xevious]

(I'm predicting a standard D-pad configuration).

I predict the control will be ... well ...

Pick up your mouse, and point the bottom of it towards you. Imagine that the left mouse button is a control pad, the right is a button. There's a thumb button too.

Imagine you have a seperate mouse in your other hand, with the same control.

Imagine the bottom of the mouse is the screen.

Imagine that you hold your hand up, and the screen shows you what would be there as if the screen were a window to another dimension. You can look all around by moving the screens around.

OK, not a prediction, because it's probably not technically possible. But it would be fun.

[Sng]

How many times...

[Graham S]

JPickford. You, sir, are a genius. However, I think at this point in your idea you may have crossed into the border area between genius, insanity and hallucingoenics....

In a later section you actually have to let a 'sheep' climb onto your finger (or it looks like that) and lift it to the second screen (very carefully so it doesn't fall off).  A bit like moving a budgie between different perches.

If Nintendo can't implement the touchscreen idea and insted show us a split screen I will now be very disappointed. Obviously we have no idea if this is implementable with current technology: the touch screen on my palm pilot is a bit rubbish.

But I think we should come up with a few more game ideas just in case. Any amateur game designers want to see if they can show up the professional?

[kamrantaz]

It will be incredibly useful. There won't be any face buttons at all, so the whole point it to introduce new control methods which leads to totally different game concepts.

It'll lead to shit game concepts though.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

It'll lead to shit game concepts though.

Says the defender of rotational control.

[kamrantaz]

But all the ideas you have given are very simplistic.

Would you pay 40 quid for a game of marbles?

[Sprite Machine]

But all the ideas you have given are very simplistic.

The simple games are the most addictive.

Would you pay 40 quid for a game of marbles?

Only if it's bump-mapped!!

40 quid though? Why would they cost 40 quid?

[JPickford (retired mod)]

But all the ideas you have given are very simplistic.

Would you pay 40 quid for a game of marbles?

Use a bit of imagination man.. I've described some silly little control ideas. Not full games.

All good games are built around simple control mechanisms. The point being, genuinely different controls = genuinely different games.

And yes I would pay £40 for simple game that was engaging. I love simple games. I'd rather pay £20 though.