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Formula One - 2020


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To be fair @Freeman it’s pretty easy to not like Ferrari given the unfair advantage they are given by the operators let alone their vito, cheating and lack of penalty when they get caught cheating...

 

I have Italian blood, drive an Italian car,  love all things to do with Italy often buying brands from Italy other others and even like Ferrari as a road car (my car is a Ferrari colour) but I can’t get behind the F1 team in any way while they have both financial doping and rule changing power / toys out of pram threats!!

 

Hamilton is a living legend, surely it’s stranger to not like him than be a fan in the same way it’s stranger to not like Roger Federer than love him so you would expect the majority to back him in general let alone a thread about the sport he partakes in?

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I've been a Hamilton fan from day one, but these day I take more from seeing others doing well. I am happy for him and want him to get the 7th and 8th over with but like yesterday I really wanted that Hulk podium. I was gutted when they pitted him. There are so many good guys on the grid now, it's just nice to see more of them do well.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Shimmyhill said:

Hamilton is a living legend, surely it’s stranger to not like him than be a fan in the same way it’s stranger to not like Roger Federer than love him so you would expect the majority to back him in general let alone a thread about the sport he partakes in?


Perhaps the difference between me and someone else then, is my opinion of the driver doesn’t cloud my personal analysis of the facts. I don’t disagree with that description of him. 

But I wouldn’t “back” a driver regardless. That just leaves your future analyses open to easy dismissal. 



Or is this a Hamilton echo chamber, where any criticism of him is expected to release an allowance of passive aggressive mockery. 

 

(I’m over it btw. I’m simply using those words in an accurate, descriptive sense. Not in a poor fucking me; I’m so hurt by it all sense.)

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15 minutes ago, marsh said:

@kiroquaiI wonder if Adrian Newey designed it? seems like putting a 'full action picture on the reverse' is the kind of screwball shit for a puzzle only he could come up with...

It's not aerodynamic enough

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16 minutes ago, marsh said:

@kiroquaiI wonder if Adrian Newey designed it? seems like putting a 'full action picture on the reverse' is the kind of screwball shit for a puzzle only he could come up with...


That’s exactly what I was going to ask before I turned the page and saw you’d already done it!

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Just now, NexivRed said:


Perhaps the difference between me and someone else then, is my opinion of the driver doesn’t cloud my personal analysis of the facts. 

I wouldn’t “back” a driver regardless.
Or is this a Hamilton echo chamber, where any criticism of him is expected to release an allowance of passive aggressive mockery. 

 

(I’m over it btw. I’m simply using those words in an accurate, descriptive sense. Not in a poor fucking me; I’m so hurt by it all sense.)

It can be a bit of a Hamilton echo chamber. I'm similar, I don't favour any driver over another, even Verstappen, I can see just how good he is and see him as the pantomime villain due to his temperament. 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, marsh said:

@kiroquaiI wonder if Adrian Newey designed it? seems like putting a 'full action picture on the reverse' is the kind of screwball shit for a puzzle only he could come up with...

 

Hah, indeed! He did design the car after all :sherlock:

 

Worth noting, of course, that he designed those March/Leyton Houses to be 100% optimal for aero. There's a curious line in the BBC season preview magazine for 1990 that states the 1989 car was generating so much aero that their front wings kept breaking at Imola which is... interesting.

 

Also worth noting that Newey's design vision didn't extend to making a cockpit of sufficient dimensions to stop the drivers losing circulation to their legs at times and having to retire from the odd race with cramp!

 

Still, they were rather lovely to look at, especially when combined with Gugelmin's helmet design.

 

mauricio_gugelmin__portugal_1991__by_f1_

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12 minutes ago, wev said:

It can be a bit of a Hamilton echo chamber. I'm similar, I don't favour any driver over another, even Verstappen, I can see just how good he is and see him as the pantomime villain due to his temperament. 

 

 

 

I feel the same really. Ultimately I just want to see a competitive championship and Hamilton/Mercedes winning everything is massively boring for me, especially after so many seasons of it. 

 

I also don't subscribe to the whole driver winning is great and everyone else is shit thing that seems quite prevalent here. All these drivers are excellent (maybe not Stroll) and being a few tenths behind a Hamilton or a Verstappen does not make a driver shit.

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17 minutes ago, NexivRed said:

Or is this a Hamilton echo chamber, where any criticism of him is expected to release an allowance of passive aggressive mockery. 

There has been plenty of valid and warranted criticism of Hamilton in this thread. Even recently with his very ill judged Instagram posts. I dont think insinuating that he knew he was going to get a better strategy than Bottas when it was already known that Mercedes has seen that there was life left in Bottas tyres was it though. We have seen Hamilton time and time again attack and then move back to keep his tyres fresher than the one in front. It's the very tactic he used last year, making Bottas burn his tyres up.

 

I could have certainly said it better, so for that I will apologise.

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4 minutes ago, SharkyOB said:

 

I feel the same really. Ultimately I just want to see a competitive championship and Hamilton/Mercedes winning everything is massively boring for me, especially after so many seasons of it. 

 

I also don't subscribe to the whole driver winning is great and everyone else is shit thing that seems quite prevalent here. All these drivers are excellent (maybe not Stroll) and being a few tenths behind a Hamilton or a Verstappen does not make a driver shit.

 

I don't think Stroll is as bad as is made out. He's most certainly where is because of Daddy and he's not getting the most from that car (I think it's also telling that the Pink MerCDes struggled yesterday) but he's been better than some of the other drivers on the grid, particularly in the wet and I think he'd do a better job at Alfa or Haas than any of their current drivers are doing and is definitely far better than the majority of paid drivers we've had in the sport.

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Bottas also tried the same tactic last weekend and Hamilton made the point that Bottas was pushing him all the way it’s just that this year the chasing car had tyre issues before the lead car. 
 

Hamilton gets his achievements takes down because he’s in the best car but you only have to look at Alonso’s career to see what happens when a driver is bad for team morale no one will touch them no matter how good they are. Ferrari have broken Vettel, next year whether he has a drive or not cannot come quick enough for him.

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On the subject of Vettel, since I like a good conspiracy theory, what are the chances that Ferrari aren’t sabotaging him to put him down, but to elevate Leclerc, make him look awesome, and give him a massive confidence boost, “look how he destroyed a 4x WDC”

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I just read on Twitter that Ross Brawn said he would have signed Hulkenberg to Merc if Hamilton hadn’t switched from McLaren back then. That guy cannot catch a break!

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4 hours ago, kiroquai said:

New week, new backmarker :sherlock:

 

Cd2UuLzXEAAE1EJ.jpg

 

Nice wheels, shame about the everything else with that team.

 

1 hour ago, kiroquai said:

I should point out that yesterday I felt overall was one of the days where Bottas had Lewis' number for the majority of the race. It's difficult to tell because the dirty air and the current tyres do mean that sometimes the car behind will just chill out a few seconds back despite being quicker, but I felt like Bottas had things under control and was looking after his tyres in those first few stints as well as Lewis was. Bottas does have his days, for sure. Russia 2017, Hockenheim 2018, Suzuka, Melbourne and USA last year... I think in time, people will look back and recognise that on his day he could beat the very best in the same equipment.

 

 

I said it at the time and I stand behind Lewis had one of his fairly rare but still regular "Drive like he doesn't give a shit" days.  He only beat Bottas because the team used Bottas as a tyre test dummy.

 

Bottas will never, ever beat Lewis over a season, he's Nico only less quick and unable to get into Lewis's head.  And even Nico knew lightening was not going to strike twice.

 

And this was one of those times that Lewis's rare "Kimi" days coincided with one of Bottas' equally rare world class driver days.  He was very unlucky.

 

25 minutes ago, kiroquai said:

Worth noting, of course, that he designed those March/Leyton Houses to be 100% optimal for aero. There's a curious line in the BBC season preview magazine for 1990 that states the 1989 car was generating so much aero that their front wings kept breaking at Imola which is... interesting.

 

To give everyone an idea about just how stupidly aero dependant the 1990 March was.  At bumpy Mexico City, neither car qualified. They were 28th and 29th quickest out of 30 and even Roberto Moreno's actual Eurobrun being disqualified ahead of them didn't get them in the race from 4.3 and 4.4 seconds slower than Berger's pole sitting McLaren.

 

2 weeks later we went to Paul Ricard in France, a perfectly smooth surface.  They qualified 7th and 10th, Capelli within a second of pole.  In the race they were unstoppable and ran 1-2 for most of it.  It was only engine problems for both cars that stopped it finishing that way, Gugelmin's blowing almost as soon as Prost's Ferrari passed him and Capelli having to drive carefully with a rapidly dying unit and only being passed for the lead with a couple of laps to go, finishing 2nd.

 

The team only scored 1 more point all year, a 6th for Gugelmin at the equally aero-y Spa.  They had 4 more DNQs.

 

To tl;dr.  At a bumpy circuit, they were twice as far off the lead as Williams are right now.  The exact same car was a Mercedes 2 weeks later on a smooth one.

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7 minutes ago, GwiDan said:

On the subject of Vettel, since I like a good conspiracy theory, what are the chances that Ferrari aren’t sabotaging him to put him down, but to elevate Leclerc, make him look awesome, and give him a massive confidence boost, “look how he destroyed a 4x WDC”

I think you're giving Ferrari a little too much credit there :lol:

 

though apparently Vettel is considering changing chassis for Spain

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Ah see, Rial Racing are a pretty interesting team given what's going on this year. Gustav Brunner designed the 1987 Ferrari, which pretty much got used with a few tweaks in 1988. It looked like this.

 

24754092-1-22.jpg&width=960

 

The 1988 Rial was also designed by Gustav Brunner, and looked like this :sherlock:

 

ff6e62dfa31bfe9cb84a4f55f15b43b1.jpg

 

I highly recommend reading this article about Rial (and previously ATS) founder Gunther Schmid as he was... quite the character. An exerpt:

 

Quote

“In Argentina, we had a new wing which we thought was a lot better. It was designed by Gustav Brunner, and he has proved since that he is a good engineer. But the real engineer in this team was Gunther Schmid. He saw the wing and said ‘I don’t like it. I don’t want this on my car.’ But we’d tested at Silverstone, and it worked better.

 

“Anyway, we put the wing on, and he came to the track in the late morning. We’d just made a back-to-back test. He got upset that we’d tested this wing without his permission, that he jumped on it and destroyed it! I said it looked like an angry child was destroying his toys. Of course the press took that quote and I had a big problem.”

 

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46 minutes ago, GwiDan said:

On the subject of Vettel, since I like a good conspiracy theory, what are the chances that Ferrari aren’t sabotaging him to put him down, but to elevate Leclerc, make him look awesome, and give him a massive confidence boost, “look how he destroyed a 4x WDC”

 

It's not that far fetched imo.

 

Do I think they are putting lead weights in the car? No.

 

Do I think they are giving him the support they give Legreg? No way. And they are not hiding it either.

 

I get the feeling they are subtly and not so subtly (strat on sun) letting him know they don't gaf and they just want him gone. I think he is a sensitive character and they are playing with him. Why? I do not know. Something pretty bad has happened behind the scenes imo. I don't think we'll ever know as Seb is not the type to spill the beans. I don't like it. Ferrari have form when it comes to treating drivers badly so this isn't a shock but it still makes me sad.

 

He has not just forgotten how to drive imo. If he gets another seat I think you'll see a massive turnaround. 

 

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11 minutes ago, mexos said:

That 87 Ferrari is an all time classic. Love it. So simple. And it has the black wings. All Ferrari's should have black wings. :blah: 

 

Indeed! The other Ferrari Gustav Brunner designed was quite a looker, too :sherlock:, although in a neat link to earlier chat here, Adrian Newey was offered the design gig for this first and declined!

 

image-asset.jpeg

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Ah the Indycar. Classic Ferrari spit the dummy taken to the extremes. It's a lovely looking thing.  Wonder if it actually ran or if it's just a rolling chassis. (This I think).

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Imagine what a higher profile Indy would have now if teams like Ferrari ran in it. Is it likely that we’ll see some of this with the F1 budget cap, so the bigger teams have something for their excess staff to do, or will they just lay them off?

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I am not entirely sure if it ever turned a wheel. Michele Alboreto did some testing for the project, but used a (rather chunky) March 1985 IndyCar chassis for this:

 

image-asset.jpeg?format=750w

 

The thing with the 637 is that, whilst it was primarily a pawn to get the FIA to agree to allowing V12 engines when F1 went normally aspirated in 1989 (they were originally going to mandate V8s), it was still something that Enzo was quite keen on running as they'd spent a shitload of money on it. Unfortunately when John Barnard rocked up in late 1986 he took at look at how badly the F1 team were doing and expressed in no uncertain terms to his new boss that Ferrari should just be focussing on F1 and nothing else.

 

With regards to @wev's excellent point, Ferrari are indeed suggesting that IndyCar could be an avenue to employ staff when the budget cap hits. I think their statement about this got slightly misconstrued as classic Ferrari politicking but it makes a lot of sense. It would potentially drive budgets and standards in IndyCar to levels that might risk pissing off some of the smaller teams, mind.

 

EDIT: Worth pointing out that Ferrari did compete in the Indy 500 of course :sherlock:, way back in 1952. No less of a man that soon-to-beWorld Champion Alberto Ascari was the driver!

 

Ascari52Indyvi-vi.jpg

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9 minutes ago, kiroquai said:

 

Indeed! The other Ferrari Gustav Brunner designed was quite a looker, too :sherlock:, although in a neat link to earlier chat here, Adrian Newey was offered the design gig for this first and declined!

 

image-asset.jpeg

The back end on that looks incredibly tight.

 

Of course it's no 412T2

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2 minutes ago, kiroquai said:

I am not entirely sure if it ever turned a wheel. Michele Alboreto did some testing for the project, but used a (rather chunky) March 1985 IndyCar chassis for this:

 

image-asset.jpeg?format=750w

 

The thing with the 637 is that, whilst it was primarily a pawn to get the FIA to agree to allowing V12 engines when F1 went normally aspirated in 1989 (they were originally going to mandate V8s), it was still something that Enzo was quite keen on running as they'd spent a shitload of money on it. Unfortunately when John Barnard rocked up in late 1986 he took at look at how badly the F1 team were doing and expressed in no uncertain terms to his new boss that Ferrari should just be focussing on F1 and nothing else.

 

With regards to @wev's excellent point, Ferrari are indeed suggesting that IndyCar could be an avenue to employ staff when the budget cap hits. I think their statement about this got slightly misconstrued as classic Ferrari politicking but it makes a lot of sense. It would potentially drive budgets and standards in IndyCar to levels that might risk pissing off some of the smaller teams, mind.

 

EDIT: Worth pointing out that Ferrari did compete in the Indy 500 of course :sherlock:, way back in 1953. No less of a man that then-World Champion Alberto Ascari was the driver!

 

Ascari52Indyvi-vi.jpg

That was @GwiDan, I haven't caught up on the IndyCar talk yet

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1 hour ago, Dudley said:

 

 He only beat Bottas because the team used Bottas as a tyre test dummy 

 

 


I thought it was just their usual “leading driver gets the pre-determined optimal strategy, and the other guy can’t pit until after he does” and this was one of the rare occasions the other side of the garage had the opportunity to do something a bit different that worked, in this case by pitting a lot later, cos it turned out Bottas Effectively came in too early.

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  • Mr Tony changed the title to Formula One - 2020

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