Controversial Retro Opinions

[Protocol Penguin]

7 hours ago, beakbeak said:

 

 

While those games are indeed amazing, I don’t know if you can say they are the most influential games on any system. I mean PlayStation has final fantasy VII, gran turismo and tekken to name just 3 games that defined those genres.

A JRPG, a driving game and a fighting game/arcade conversion. Not exactly an innovative range of software...

[Wiper]

I mean, by that logic a platformer, a first-person-shooter and a less French version of Little Big Adventure 2 don't sound all that innovative either

[Protocol Penguin]

1 hour ago, Wiper said:

 

As someone who definitely contributes to the negative side of the spectrum, that's a fair point. It's certainly more attention-grabbing to beat down a sacred cow, but it's also generally less productive than raising up the ignored/misinderstood. I'll try to redress the balance a little with some out of character positivity: 

 

Despite an awful lot of modern-day criticism, Myst offered a genuinely progressive approach to world-building and storytelling, and was absolutely worthy of its commercial successive. 

 

The Mega CD, for all its flaws, had enough gems in its library that it deserves to be remembered more fondly. Dark Wizard, Eye of the Beholder, Keio Flying Squadron, Lunar: The Silver Star, Shining Force CD, Sonic CD, and of course the unavoidable Snatcher, all make it a worthwhile machine. 

I don’t disagree with that. The Mega CD has been flanderised as the system that was dominated by awful American FMV games, but it was always much more than that.

[ScouserInExile]

Since we're aiming to be positive and controversial:

Jersey Devil is a really good 3D platformer that is seriously underrated. One of my favourites, in fact.

 

I also really like Gex on the PS1. 

 

The Fighters History series is really underrated as well. 

 

 

[Alexlotl]

The EGA version of Monkey Island 1, with the animated Steve Purcell character portraits and MT-32 music, is the best version. It looks like hell without dithering though, so either play it on a CRT or use a dithering scaler for RetroArch.

[Wiper]

Yep, it's not quite as stark as Loom, but at that period Lucasarts' artists had mastered EGA and MT-32 MIDI, and the later VGA, CD audio versions were a real step down.

 

It's funny, in a tragic kind of way, that the quality of the entire Monkey Island series's aesthetic and the level of technology and production values invested in said games appear to be inversely correlated, LeChuck's Revenge excepted. 

[Droo]

My eye sees almost no difference between pal and NTSC games. 
 

more controversially, I don’t think RGB is all that much better than Composite or RF. 

[beakbeak]

12 minutes ago, Droo said:

My eye sees almost no difference between pal and NTSC games. 
 

more controversially, I don’t think RGB is all that much better than Composite or RF. 

 

You definitely need glasses 

[beakbeak]

4 hours ago, Protocol Penguin said:

A JRPG, a driving game and a fighting game/arcade conversion. Not exactly an innovative range of software...

 

They were all incredibly innovative at the time and practically all games in those genres, 23 years on, owe everytning to those games. 

 

Also, don’t get me started on final fantasy tactics, parappa, einhander, vagrant story, metal gear and wipeout 

[Droo]

21 minutes ago, beakbeak said:

 

You definitely need glasses 

who said that?

[spanky debrest]

Super Mario Kart is the greatest piece of software Nintendo have ever released.

 

Yu Suzuki is the world's greatest video game designer in spite of Shenmue.

 

The HD era and electronics conglomerates muscling their way into the industry have stripped the soul out of the hobby.

[beakbeak]

Despite starting it 5 times (including the 3ds version a few weeks ago) I have never enjoyed ocarina of time. I’ve gotten to the water temple so I reckon I’ve given it a good shot. 

 

I cant work out why I don’t like it because I’ve completed and thoroughly enjoyed all the 2D zeldas numerous times and I loved wind waker and breath of the wild and even enjoyed Majora’s  mask. 

[Camel]

11 hours ago, Alexlotl said:

The DKC games are decidedly average, home-micro affairs dressed up in then-shiny clothing which has aged awfully, exposing their ugly bones.

 

No.

[Protocol Penguin]

I don’t think you can objectively compare the Donkey Kong Country series to the typical Europlatformers of the era and say that they’re of the same quality. I mean, the DKC series definitely aren’t top-tier 16-bit platformers, but they’re definitely above a huge step above the rubbish you’d get on the Amiga in 1994, and are superior most of the western-developed platformers available on the Super NES and Mega Drive. (Also, DKC2 is definitely one of those sequels that palpably improves on its predecessor.)

[Camel]

It's not even a controversial opinion - loads of wrong people have spouted that nonsense.

 

[ScouserInExile]

12 hours ago, Droo said:

My eye sees almost no difference between pal and NTSC games. 
 

more controversially, I don’t think RGB is all that much better than Composite or RF. 

o/

 

When it came to the PS360 generation, there was a marked difference between scart whatever and HDMI but, prior to that, I could never really see a difference between rgb and composite, or any other video standard. I have what was a relatively expensive CRT that handles basically everything you throw at it. A few times, people have said "it'll look miles better if you use a x cabke, instead of the y one you're currently using". I've then bought an x cable and gone "can't see the difference.

 

And the only time I've really noticed a difference between PAL and NTSC is when there's massive borders.

 

I can't help thinking there's often more than a hint of emperor's new clothes around graphics, frame rates and graphics standards. The one that always sticks in mind is Resident Evil 4 - I saw a post, possibly on here, deriding the awful PS2 graphics and lauding the amazing GameCube version. This was supported by screenshots from both and was followed by lots of beard stroking agreements. I looked at the two sets of images and could barely see any difference...

[ulala]

45 minutes ago, ScouserInExile said:

And the only time I've really noticed a difference between PAL and NTSC is when there's massive borders.

 

I can't help thinking there's often more than a hint of emperor's new clothes around graphics, frame rates and graphics standards. 

 

It depends on the system and the game.

 

When pal retro games were optimized (or designed) to run on pal 50 (and not just the music) then there will be minimal difference.

 

See DKC on the PAL snes as a game thats very much optimized for PAL,. there will be no difference to that and its NTSC counterpart.

 

But look at Fzero pal SNES, blimey, its running in treacle compared to the NTSC version. Same with Sonic 1.

 

 

 

[Nick R]

Going back to Mario Kart games: in Mario Kart Super Circuit, I thought the 3-lap Super Circuit tracks were much more interesting than the unlockable 5-lap SNES ones. I barely played the original SNES Super Mario Kart, so I have no nostalgia for the original tracks.

 

 

An even more controversial GBA one: I preferred the GBA to the GBA SP, because the more comfortable hand position - especially for Mario Kart - outweighed the need to play it directly underneath a desk lamp in order to see anything.

 

I originally had a GBA, then traded it in to GameStation for an GBA SP because everyone said it was better thanks to the backlight. But I found I couldn't get used to the cramped hand position (plus I think there was some annoying wear and tear on the second-hand one I happened to get; squeaky buttons I think), so I returned it - and never sought out a replacement of any kind (original, SP or Micro).

[phresh]

Part of the problem with RGB versus composite is that people may have bought an RGB cable but it's entirely possible their TV didn't support it, or the port they plugged it into didn't support it. Or the console itself didn't support it. I've seen (and experienced) this a few times.

 

I think most people would agree that the entire N64 library has aged badly (Sin & Punishment and WWF No Mercy aside for me) but it's more how it developed 3D gameplay. A lot of 3D PS1 games are really 2.5D and even now I can remember my mind being utterly blown playing Super Mario 64 for the first time in a way that no PS1 game ever came close to.

 

EDIT : Should throw an actual opinion in - Gran Turismo is the most boring racing series ever created.

[Dudley]

Gran Turismo certainly suffered from completely losing sight it was supposed to be a game at some point, GT1 is actually pretty tight in its structure.

 

Like, remake GT1 but give it 24 car fields and GT Sport's car line up and no other changes and you've probably got the best GT by country mile.

[ulala]

grinding to unlock newer faster cars is very very boring

[Colonel Panic]

I dunno how people couldn’t notice the awful dot crawl you get from composite. 

[partious]

On the topic of rgb, I have an xrgb mini but have been connecting my consoles via s-video (because I already had some and the others were dirt cheap compared to the rgb route) for a few years and I'm content with that. If you mentioned that in an xrgb discussion people would act like you're commiting a sin. There's a perfectionist/obsessive streak in the "retro community" that makes out like anything other than rgb is awful but in reality it's perfectly fine. I got the xrgb mini because without it my old consoles had unplayable amounts of lag and looked like puke on my modern tv.

 

Alongside that, I've also been playing snes/megadrive via composite and famicom via rf on a Sharp CRT for years and don't feel the need to get a Trinitron or BVM at all. I'm sure there's an improvement, but in a way it would feel less authentic to me than just a bog standard consumer CRT.

[Revival]

2 hours ago, ScouserInExile said:

o/

 

When it came to the PS360 generation, there was a marked difference between scart whatever and HDMI but, prior to that, I could never really see a difference between rgb and composite, or any other video standard. I have what was a relatively expensive CRT that handles basically everything you throw at it. A few times, people have said "it'll look miles better if you use a x cabke, instead of the y one you're currently using". I've then bought an x cable and gone "can't see the difference.

 

Nah, If you go back to the late eighties and threw some coins in a Playchoice 10 at an arcade and then went back home to your fuzzy RF NES there was a night and day difference.

[PaB]

I remember buying a RGB SCART for my Dreamcast and it was lke night and day

[Revival]

5 minutes ago, partious said:

Alongside that, I've also been playing snes/megadrive via composite and famicom via rf on a Sharp CRT for years and don't feel the need to get a Trinitron or BMV at all. I'm sure there's an improvement, but in a way it would feel less authentic to me than just a bog standard consumer CRT.

 

That's a totally different reason though. Most of the people investing in a retro setup now don't want an 'authentic' experience because it was either flawed or limited by what your parents could afford/showed interest in/didn't care and bought any old crap.

 

When you watch TV now I'm guessing you don't do it via a 14" Sanyo CRT for that 'authentic' experience?

[partious]

15 minutes ago, Revival said:

 

That's a totally different reason though. Most of the people investing in a retro setup now don't want an 'authentic' experience because it was either flawed or limited by what your parents could afford/showed interest in/didn't care and bought any old crap.

 

When you watch TV now I'm guessing you don't do it via a 14" Sanyo CRT for that 'authentic' experience?

 

Well clearly there's an element of backwards rationalisation to my crt comment If someone rolled up to my door tomorrow and offered to trade for a BVM I wouldn't say no. I just mean there's a tendency to think that you either have the one acceptable solution or dogshit, when in reality there's "the best" and then a lot of options that are perfectly acceptable.

 

When I bought the xrgb mini I had intended on going all rgb like the guides said but I hooked up my Saturn with the s-video cable I had lying around and thought "good enough". I'm sure rgb is better.

[Colonel Panic]

S-Video often is good enough, IMO. I used it with my NTSC GameCube up until the point where I got a modded component cable that could output VGA. 

[Qazimod]

On 14/02/2020 at 10:44, ScouserInExile said:

Yesterday, I played right through both Streets of Rage 2 and Final Fight 3. Both are excellent, excellent games. However, I am aware of the fact that SoR2 is generally considered to be the pinnacle of the genre but I actually think Final Fight is the better game. It's hard to quantify exactly why I think this, since they're both brilliant, but Final Fight just felt better. It felt more like an arcade game on a console - minus the coin stealing difficulty - where SoR2 feels like a console game, if that makes sense? I just thought it was a more enjoyable experience overall.

Something I found with FF1 and SoR2 is that Final Fight’s world and characters are much more iconic to me - not just the characters you control, but El Gato, J, Roxy, Poison, Belger, Holly Wood, Andore and Andore Jr, P. Signal etc. I might have mistyped some names as I’m going from memory, but I’d have a much harder time naming anyone from Streets outside of the playable characters...

[Dudley]

2 hours ago, ulala said:

grinding to unlock newer faster cars is very very boring

 

Well now you're debating the whole concept of games, why does GT then have any car at all other than the TVR Speed 12?

 

* Grinding to get the best abilities in Borderlands is boring.

* Grinding to get to the last level in Mario in boring.

 

etc.

 

GT1 doesn't have a lot of that and has a managable number of races.

 

It also had a largely set opposing field, rather than the curse of the modern ones where you can't manage the difficulty level by choosing a different car because it'll just choose the same ones.

 

We spent months working out what the slowest car you could win the Normal Car Cup was, you just don't get that in the new ones just a barrel load of near identikit cups that you'll only ever play once and forget and that you need to complete a billion of to "win".