The Last of Us: The Show!

[NecroMorrius]

3 hours ago, Capwn said:

Season2 - LO2 spoilers - How I would spread it.

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 I don't quite understand the doubts about fitting everything into one season. Just needs a few extended episodes I think. I think after the success they will be able to justify an extra episode too, making it a 10 episode season.

 

Episode 1 - Two hour premiere = ends with the Joel getting golfed and HBO execs having a panic attack.

Episode 2 - 5  = Seattle, Ellie going after Abby, flashbacks (brining relief to HBO execs "Oh we can still have Pedro?, oh ok") . Episode 5 closes with Abby storming the cinema after Ellie kills Mel/Owen.

Episode 6 - 9 = Abby. Flashbacks. Scars/Lev etc.

Episode 10 = 2 hour finale. Farm house, Ellie tracking down Abby, final confrontation. 

 

if you watch the cutscenes from the first game back to back they’re about three to five hours depending how many contextual gameplay moments you add in, the second game is 12. 

[makkuwata]

@JPL FEDRA were cracking down on Fireflies in Boston. Joel was even warned by the guy he sells drugs to. Marlene planned to leave with Ellie herself but was bleeding out and they were against the clock. Then from the capitol building they’re a needle in a haystack. 
 

If they hadn’t run into trouble in KC they would have made it from Bill to Tommy in days not months. Presumably once Marlene recovered she had a longer stretch in a vehicle than Joel and Ellie.

[JPL]

Maybe the timescales are more apparent in the game then, as their journey in the show really didn’t get that across.

[AI]

8 minutes ago, JPL said:

One other weird thing I thought, which I never really noticed in the game for some reason, was Marlene being at the hospital before Joel & Ellie got there. If they were going there anyway, why didn't they just take Ellie themselves or at least travel together with Joel as muscle?

 

I had the exact same thought when I watched it yesterday. The reason it's not an issue in the game is because a year has passed (and feels like it) whereas in the TV show it feels like a fortnight.

[makkuwata]

The Tommy episode literally opens with 3 Months later. Actually it opens with a replaying of Henry shooting himself and a close up on Ellie’s face. Then a cut to black and three months later. Just as it does in the game.

[AI]

53 minutes ago, makkuwata said:

The Tommy episode literally opens with 3 Months later. Actually it opens with a replaying of Henry shooting himself and a close up on Ellie’s face. Then a cut to black and three months later. Just as it does in the game.

 

I'm not saying they haven't had time skips and '3 months later' inserts, etc . I'm saying in the game it feels like a much longer journey than the TV show. I'm not sure how you resolve that from a 25 hour game to an approx. 6 hour TV show. But the game covers a year and feels like it, the TV show covers a year and feels like a fortnight. If only they had the budget for 12 episodes, it might have worked better (for me at least). it's still a very good adaptation though.

[Shimmyhill]

4 hours ago, JPL said:

Why do you (anyone in this thread) think this has done so well?

 

Yes, it’s got great production values, superb acting and a decent enough story, but it’s still full of issues and it’s based on a video game, which usually turns a lot of people off.

 

For me it’s been mid-tier telly. I’ve enjoyed my time with it, but I don’t think it’s a patch on the game, never mind a lot of other shows out there.

 

Good on them, and I’m looking forward to seeing what they do with the next season, but I do wonder why it’s gained such high praise.

 

It’s a story as old as time, looks decent and has some great actors - thats a decent start. I do think its been hyped up way too much, its a step below top tier stuff like GOT, Breaking Bad et al but maybe the fast pace appeals to more people - personally I prefer stuff like Breaking bad where they spent more time on a fly than this entire series did on the relationship between Joel and Ellie!

 

 

[teddymeow]

Missus not sure she wants to continue with this after the first episode. Think the setting is a bit bleak for her.

 

Once again, at "that" moment in the first episode (just like in the game) I'm a blubbering, snotty mess!!

 

I wonder how many more episodes I can get through tonight before I have to go to sleep. I don't have a busy day at work tomorrow so... I wonder... 🤔

[Darren]

That was fantastic. A perfect end to a brilliant series.

 

Once again I wonder how everyone complaining how there wasn’t time for characters and relationships to develop gets on with films that are done and dusted in three 30-40 minute acts. There was loads of time, and they used it really well!

[NecroMorrius]

It's because they have the game for comparison. That said, my wife has seen little bits of the game here and there but never played it or watched at any length. She thought parts of the relationship and the last episode in particular felt rushed.

[Cheeko]

8 hours ago, JPL said:

Why do you (anyone in this thread) think this has done so well?

Episode 3. 

It’s absolutely that in my mind, because it was so great, and powerful, and reached way beyond the genre box this season was meant to be in. Then everyone, like me, after talking to people about that episode, has continued to watch in the hope of that quality returning, luckily there’s just enough budget and spectacle to keep us going.

 

Having seen the whole season now, I think the problem with it is that, on the whole, it’s too closely based on the game which has (ironically) two dimensional characters that aren’t fully realised to be able to hold up a TV series. There was plenty of time to make  it work, but it didn’t happen.

 

I would guess most people who are saying the finale was so great and awesome are ones who played the game and have that experience to fill in the blanks of the experience.
 

Otherwise it’s Pedro saving the ass of a boring lead character, and Bella doing her best to fill time when, even in the last episode, after everything they’ve been through, no matter how many people close to her die, she continues to be an annoying dick. (Throwing a ladder down, almost on Joel’s head and then running off squealing).

[Fry Crayola]

5 hours ago, JPL said:

One other weird thing I thought, which I never really noticed in the game for some reason, was Marlene being at the hospital before Joel & Ellie got there. If they were going there anyway, why didn't they just take Ellie themselves or at least travel together with Joel as muscle?

 

Remember the original intention wasn't to get Ellie to Salt Lake City. It was to get her from the Boston Quarantine Zone, to a Firefly base in the same city. It was a job that was intended to take a day or two, tops, and Marlene intended to do it herself until she got shot.

[Chadruharazzeb]

6 hours ago, Fry Crayola said:

 

Remember the original intention wasn't to get Ellie to Salt Lake City. It was to get her from the Boston Quarantine Zone, to a Firefly base in the same city. It was a job that was intended to take a day or two, tops, and Marlene intended to do it herself until she got shot.

 

Good point but I wonder how Marlene knew Joel was taking Ellie to Salt Lake City? She can't possibly have known that they found a voice recorder with the new location on it, yet there she was with a fully-prepped medical team ready to go at a moments notice. 

 

EDIT - wasn't a voice recorder in the show but same principal. 

[BossSaru]

1 hour ago, Chadruharazzeb said:

Good point but I wonder how Marlene knew Joel was taking Ellie to Salt Lake City? She can't possibly have known that they found a voice recorder with the new location on it, yet there she was with a fully-prepped medical team ready to go at a moments notice. 

 

EDIT - wasn't a voice recorder in the show but same principal. 

 

She didn't - as far as Marlene was concerned Ellie was MIA after sending her off with Joel, and (in the game) she starts hearing rumours of a guy travelling across the country with a girl. But there was no instruction or expectation that Joel and Ellie would show up in SLC. It was pure luck that Joel and Ellie saw the map in the university showing a move there, and decided to follow them.

 

It makes sense that if you are in a hospital with one of the few remaining surgeons you would have things prepared in case someone gets injured, just as they also clearly had vehicles ready to go if needed. And in the game there is a suggestion that a bit more time passes than a couple of hours between Joel's arrival and the surgery.

[JamesC]

I thought the final episode was pretty good but the 

Spoiler

massacre in the hostpital felt very, very videogamey and seemed faintly ridiculous in a TV show (which feels at odds with the show's serious tone).

I still think Joel and Ellie are the least interesting characters in the show but we're starting to get somewhere now and I'm interested to see how their relationship develops next season.
My girflfriend isn't sure she wants to continue with Season 2. Partly because of the grim tone and partly because she's seen it all before.
I think that's certainly a weakness in the story. There isn't an original thought in the whole thing.

[JPL]

31 minutes ago, BossSaru said:

 

She didn't - as far as Marlene was concerned Ellie was MIA after sending her off with Joel, and (in the game) she starts hearing rumours of a guy travelling across the country with a girl. But there was no instruction or expectation that Joel and Ellie would show up in SLC. It was pure luck that Joel and Ellie saw the map in the university showing a move there, and decided to follow them.

 

It makes sense that if you are in a hospital with one of the few remaining surgeons you would have things prepared in case someone gets injured, just as they also clearly had vehicles ready to go if needed. And in the game there is a suggestion that a bit more time passes than a couple of hours between Joel's arrival and the surgery.

The way you’ve put it there as a guy travelling across the country with a girl immediately evokes a better sense of scale and time than the show managed. I know the journey because I’ve played the game, but in the show it felt like they’d crossed a couple of towns in a few weeks at most. They totally failed to give any sense of distance or how much time had passed.

 

It got me thinking about Lord of The Rings and how in probably a similar runtime, they managed to show the unimaginable distances covered through pans across a map, lingering shots of huge vistas and characters visibly deteriorating. I’m not saying TLoU should have copied those devices wholesale, but surely they could have come up with something to help sell the journey.

 

I actually enjoyed the show, for what it is, but the more I think about it, the more it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

[Majora]

1 hour ago, JamesC said:

I thought the final episode was pretty good but the 

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massacre in the hostpital felt very, very videogamey and seemed faintly ridiculous in a TV show (which feels at odds with the show's serious tone).

I still think Joel and Ellie are the least interesting characters in the show but we're starting to get somewhere now and I'm interested to see how their relationship develops next season.
My girflfriend isn't sure she wants to continue with Season 2. Partly because of the grim tone and partly because she's seen it all before.
I think that's certainly a weakness in the story. There isn't an original thought in the whole thing.

 

Part 2 is a lot more original/ambitious than Part 1. It's also significantly grimmer and at times even gruelling so it'll be interesting to see if they tone that down a little in the adaptation. If they don't, I can imagine some of the more casual audience bouncing off it as it's a lot less easy to digest.

 

[BossSaru]

45 minutes ago, JPL said:

The way you’ve put it there as a guy travelling across the country with a girl immediately evokes a better sense of scale and time than the show managed. I know the journey because I’ve played the game, but in the show it felt like they’d crossed a couple of towns in a few weeks at most. They totally failed to give any sense of distance or how much time had passed.

 

It got me thinking about Lord of The Rings and how in probably a similar runtime, they managed to show the unimaginable distances covered through pans across a map, lingering shots of huge vistas and characters visibly deteriorating. I’m not saying TLoU should have copied those devices wholesale, but surely they could have come up with something to help sell the journey.

 

I actually enjoyed the show, for what it is, but the more I think about it, the more it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

 

The show does benefit from an understanding of US geography, sure, although I think it does a decent job of conveying distance. The 'three months later' point does suggest that quite a lot of ground was covered. But, yes, the game does a better job in this regard given the clearly signposted (and displayed) changing of seasons.

 

I really enjoyed the show, but from my perspective aside from the parts where they expanded on the game I did not see anything that made it much better than the version on my PS3 years ago. Unlike a book adaptation where writers, directors, and producers would need to interpret the text (with Shakespeare being an example where the text only provides dialogue and basic stage instruction, allowing adaptations to use a lot of imagination and leading to a fantastic range of interpretations of settings, characters, and emphasis), the game pretty much had everything there already to recreate as already shown, and it is a shame that the writers chose to replicate the cutscenes for the most part. It is very telling that the bits people seem to really pick up on in this thread relate to where the show did its own thing, such as Joel's account of his survivor guilt.

 

One advantage of gaming is, of course, that it puts you more into the first person and thus can convey peril, risk, and reward better. Hence 'my' Joel's experience felt more compelling than Pedro's. Of course, one aim of the show was to bring the story to a different audience and in that it has seemingly succeeded. Given that the popular peak of the show was the episode which strayed the most from the source material, I hope that the writers take this on board for season 2, and rely on the game as inspiration rather than as a list of instructions. There is plenty of ground between the first and second game that can be 'filled in' if they were to choose to go there.

[Mogster]

I really enjoyed the show, and felt the ending was just as perfect as it is in the game, but it did suffer a bit from being relatively compressed. The game's sheer length means that you spend a lot longer with Joel and Ellie, who have much longer to bond as a result. It also gives the story a little more time to breathe, which helps.

[Fry Crayola]

56 minutes ago, BossSaru said:

But, yes, the game does a better job in this regard given the clearly signposted (and displayed) changing of seasons

 

I think that's the biggest impact. The game clearly runs you through four explicitly titled seasons, appearing on a black screen with white writing. You can't miss them, and all four are present. I don't think the actual runtime of the game or anything outside of those four black screens does anything to convey the duration of the journey, but those four titles do it all by themselves.

[makkuwata]

I haven’t started the podcasts yet but just had a thought I haven’t seen mentioned.

 

The moment in the first episode where Marlene made Ellie swear not to tell anyone was cut short before she actually laid it out. At the time it seemed like a cheesy and unnecessary tease for Ellie’s immunity - the cuffs were enough - but that was before they added Ellie’s birth and the explanation for her immunity in for the show. That puts Marlene in a position to be the only person on Earth able to put together that the mother being bitten before cutting the cord can lead to immunity. Presumably Marlene wanted to tell Ellie about her mum and how brave a fighter she was. Now Ellie knows. Let’s try not to think about the implications of that and hope the stray thought is ignored. This journey is dark enough.

[Fry Crayola]

Marlene didn't know Anna was bitten before cutting the cord, and indeed Anna was very insistent that the cord was cut first. So the theory only holds if you buy that Marlene doesn't believe her.

[makkuwata]

Anna’s daughter shows up bit and she decides to tie her up instead of putting her down quick and cold like we know she’s capable of and Ellie’s alive and well 3 weeks later. She then planned to move her entire team west, a team which had been Boston based for at least 14 years.

 

I reckon she put two and two together.

[Wallpaper]

Sorry but this is a masterpiece as far as I’m concerned and the fact that it has come from a videogame, at times shot for shot, is testament to our medium that has always been seen as the silly little distraction compared to the others like film and theatre that are accepted as landmarks of culture.  this story will introduce people, show you their vulnerabilities, make you start to judge them before making you understand why they did what they did and then take them away, because this is a world that does not reward acts of naive goodness, you have to grit your teeth and be ready to fucking fight the worst of what the human race can do just to see the next day where you’re a bit hungrier and a bit smellier.

I can only see this through my eyes, as a parent, so don’t want to say it’s not as powerful otherwise, but the moments where it hits, god damn…

”joel I can’t do this without you” fuck does that remind you of the sun you are to their universe.  And when they take off their wolf mask and you just hope that you did enough of a good job to hope that it’s ok, because you would walk through razor wire to help them but you can’t you have to let the world hit them like a wave and trust that you’ve taught them to swim enough that it doesn’t pull them under.

then there’s the grief, Ellie’s is young and raw and while hopefully toned down we probably all dealt with something that resonates but Joel’s is hard, it’s the guilt of not stopping when the world should have, you can’t go on, you can’t imagine how you realign after your whole world, your reason for being is gone.  I’ve never lost a child that was brought to term but I’ve lost near borns and had a perfect family dynamic ripped away overnight that has been years repairing and far from the finish line that I see the little signs that are in this, the reluctance to want to feel, anything, the inability to cut off your emotions no matter how much you try, the hope that if you don’t look in loves direction it won’t notice you and you won’t have to feel the pain that only it can cause.

 

I was never able to play part two because I didn’t have the strength to see past where part one took me but this show has me playing through part one and part two is sat waiting to go straight after.  So hopefully this will show a few people that didn’t already get the memo about how far games have come but if just taken on it’s own as a tv series, like I said, masterpiece.

[Cheeko]

It’s amazing you got so much from it, it’s nice to hear that. I don’t think you are able to assess it just as a tv show though as you have said there’s so much you associate with this material already.

 

Out of interest, using Pedro as the comparison, of the people who found this series to be so amazing, have you watched Narcos? How does that compare for you?

 

For me Narcos is on another level completely for quality.

[IcEBuRN]

Well, that's the best TV I've watched since Westworld Season 1. Binged the whole thing over a few days. I've not played the game, so have no context outside the TV show, but it worked perfectly. Everything about it was excellent. Sure, you can levy some criticisms at it, like anything, but they are minor...Maybe not quite enough action, and everyone seems to get bitten the moment an infected pops up, even though it doesn't seem they should have from what is shown, and there's a few stupid decisions by the characters, but not much else really.

 

I'm sad now, as there is no more to watch. It was nice to be so engaged by a show. 

[Garibaldi]

There’s something I was wondering about. Marlene says in the first episode that they’ve made no progress against the military in twenty years. However, we come to learn that quite a few QZs have fallen, and the Fireflies are usually mentioned as a factor. Is she one of those leaders who’s grown impatient/jaded by the cause and is now just seeking one big victory over years more of slowly eroding the military’s hold? 

[mash]

Good first season. Last episode was a tad abrupt. Also;

 

Spoiler

Was it me or did the Fireflies come straight out of an 80s action film? As in they were fucking useless. One guy with a gun can mow down fucking truck loads of them without even a scratch. And these guys fought a war against trained FEDRA soldiers? 

[Alan Stock]

Spoiler

Yeah you have to suspend your disbelief, although they did make a point of showing how deadly Joel can be earlier in the season. Of course in the game it's no cakewalk, you get absolutely mobbed by soldiers and they have body armour making it even harder. But in the show Joel can't get hurt or killed and respawn. That's why I thought he might use grenades or something in the show to make it a bit more realistic.

 

As for Garibaldi's question, it's not covered in the games either why Marlene's Firefly faction isn't very effective. Maybe they don't get as much support as in other QZs. In fact in the game Marlene is injured at the start by Fedra who are clearly on the verge of defeating the Fireflies in Boston altogether. Ellie lands in Marlene's lap at just the right time for Marlene to see one final redemption arc for her crew. And the show I think emphasises the Fireflies strength elsewhere in the world much more than the games do.

 

Part 2 spoilers:

Spoiler

In Part 2 it's indicated that the events in the hospital were the beginning of the end of the Fireflies, it's kind of implied people lost their belief in them because of what happened in Part 1. Weirdly Marlene is made out to be a much more central leader of the Fireflies and losing her and the cure is some kind of deathblow for them. Though at the end, Abby does find an enclave of Fireflies who are regrouping (only a few hundred of them though).

 

 

[Pob]

Yeah, I think the bigging up of the Fireflies and their lack of impact in the actual game is a bit of a weakness. It's one of the ways the show could have expanded on the game. Perhaps we could've seen them actually doing something effective in Boston and maybe seen a FEDRA operation where they get totally routed and the plan for Ellie has to change. Boston is the weakest part of the game but the TV version could've really expanded on life in a QZ. How does it work in practice? What's life like Why would anyone want to join the Fireflies? That stuff is there but there's not much of it. That little extra bit in military school in the Left Behind episode was nice bit of world building.

 

I hope we get to see more of the workings of the post-apocalyptic societies in the next season. There's plenty of scope in Jackson and Seattle.