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“SPOILER THREAD” - The Last Of Us Part 2


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10 minutes ago, nakamura said:

That doesn't take away from the fact there is no sign she was prepared to do it if given the choice. 

 

There are many signs and we have shown them to you. Plus, she says so herself and that is the only proof you have about her feelings and what she wanted to happen. Actually, she wanted it so much that she couldn't even have a normal relationship with the one who saved her after he told her what he had done. There is no bigger sign than that. '

 

You are just trying to argue something now because you simply don't want to change your mind about how you feel about the story. 

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Well the first game doesn't slap you over the face and tell you Ellie is willing to die, but that's to its credit. Much as in real life, most people don't engage with such morbid possibilities in a direct way. At the end of the day, Joel knew Ellie well enough to know she would've wanted to go through with it. Marlene calls him out on this.

 

Ellie is essentially ashamed of the way people around her keep dying, while she survives because of her immunity. When Tess tells Joel to get her to the Fireflies, she looks like she wants to disappear into the floor. When she tells Joel the story about Riley, she emphasises "I'm still waiting for my turn". If there was a way to absolve herself of this guilt - and dying to provide a cure for mankind would certainly count - she would take it.

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7 minutes ago, Peb Kacharach said:


She says she feels that way in the sequel, after the fact. It’s indicated in the original game 13yo Ellie would commit to sacrificing herself given a clear choice, which is why Joel lies, but the choice wasn’t given and if it had been, she was a child so it‘s a moot point. 
 

The point made earlier explaining she wasn’t angry at the fireflies because they didn’t gaslight her is messed up... they were going to kill her. I don’t get how you could walk away from TLOU sympathetic to the fireflies even if you thought Joel’s actions were out of order.

 

I am not sympathetic to the Fireflies but they were right to proceed with the procedure in the chance that humanity would have a future. The fact that Ellie thinks she would have done that should be enough for you, especially when we have the signs in the first game. Ellie was ready for it and that is why she lay on that table. 

 

Also, Joel lies for his own selfish reasons, not because Ellie wasn't given a choice. What on earth are you talking about?

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18 minutes ago, Peb Kacharach said:


Strongly disagree with the bolded.

 


“It’s indicated 13yo Ellie would commit to sacrificing herself given a clear choice, which is why Joel lies” - Sorry, I don’t get what is confusing about that sentence. He lies because he knows it isn’t what Ellie would have chosen and she would resent him.


He lies because he wants Ellie alive hoping his love for her can fill the gap of his lost daughter. He acts in a selfish way out of despair and a need to escape his pain and that is what makes the whole thing so tragic.

 

Are you trolling me here? :P

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Ellie's fundamental desire is that she wants / wanted her immunity to mean something. She says this and similar things on several occasions throughout the story. The fireflies killing her to create a cure is irrelevant for her as them doing that would give her exactly what she wants / wanted. In her own words her '"life would have mattered". There are multiple and repeated signs that Ellie had already made her choice and that choice is she would be willing to do "whatever it takes" for her journey and immunity to mean something. The fact Joel took that away from her and then lied about it for years is the only thing that matters to her. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Liamness said:

Well the first game doesn't slap you over the face and tell you Ellie is willing to die, but that's to its credit. Much as in real life, most people don't engage with such morbid possibilities in a direct way. At the end of the day, Joel knew Ellie well enough to know she would've wanted to go through with it. Marlene calls him out on this.

 

Ellie is essentially ashamed of the way people around her keep dying, while she survives because of her immunity. When Tess tells Joel to get her to the Fireflies, she looks like she wants to disappear into the floor. When she tells Joel the story about Riley, she emphasises "I'm still waiting for my turn". If there was a way to absolve herself of this guilt - and dying to provide a cure for mankind would certainly count - she would take it.

Ellie has survivors guilt because her first love died and she didn't. That was the angle they went with. It's why Left Behind focused on that relationship.

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1 hour ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

There are many signs and we have shown them to you. Plus, she says so herself and that is the only proof you have about her feelings and what she wanted to happen. Actually, she wanted it so much that she couldn't even have a normal relationship with the one who saved her after he told her what he had done. There is no bigger sign than that. '

 

You are just trying to argue something now because you simply don't want to change your mind about how you feel about the story. 

She says so in the second game, after she has matured and had time to reflect. She knew he was lying at the end of the original but she chose to overlook it. Because she was torn. She hadn't made up her mind. It was too massive. There was also a chance he could have bee correct. Of all the billions in the world, only one immune? If there were more, she could have had a real chance at life. And someone else could have taken her place. 

 

But as we know if didn't happen. And she has had years to reflect on it. Thus changing her mind and changing her relationship. 

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18 minutes ago, Peb Kacharach said:

 

Yeah, I understand the ending of TLOU. 

 

But it’s more complex than what you are saying because letting Ellie die at the hands of the fireflies is no less tragic. It wasn’t a neat or happy resolution for Ellie that Joel destroyed. 


If you think that killing Ellie for a chance to save humanity is as tragic as a father who has lost his daughter and tries to escape his pain by killing people in order to protect a new girl he loves and condemning humanity in the process, I don’t know what to tell you.

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14 minutes ago, nakamura said:

She says so in the second game, after she has matured and had time to reflect. She knew he was lying at the end of the original but she chose to overlook it. Because she was torn. She hadn't made up her mind. It was too massive. There was also a chance he could have bee correct. Of all the billions in the world, only one immune? If there were more, she could have had a real chance at life. And someone else could have taken her place. 

 

But as we know if didn't happen. And she has had years to reflect on it. Thus changing her mind and changing her relationship. 


You are simply jumping to immense conclusions here just to make your point. As others have showed you as well, Ellie was ready for it. We had the signs and then she also admits it. The entire story is based on the fact that Ellie couldn’t forgive Joel for what he had done. The ending of the LoUII is based on how she is able to find a way to forgive him. I really don’t know what you are arguing here but I have no more to offer on this topic.

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8 hours ago, Peb Kacharach said:

 

Yeah, I understand the ending of TLOU. 

 

But it’s more complex than what you are saying because letting Ellie die at the hands of the fireflies is no less tragic. It wasn’t a neat or happy resolution for Ellie that Joel destroyed. 

 

What was 'destroyed' has absolutely nothing to do with the Fireflies in Ellie's mind. It has everything to do with Joel robbing Ellie of the one chance she had for her life and her immunity to matter and for it to mean something. Whether the Fireflies would have given her the choice or simply killed her does not matter to Ellie. The Fireflies, either by letting Ellie choose or by killing her before she woke were going to give Ellie what she wanted... for her life to have mattered.

 

In Ellie's mind, either as a young girl or the mature, slightly fucked up woman we meet in the sequel the Fireflies were her one chance to make a difference, to matter, to mean something, basically all the shit she says all the way through the story and Joel took that away from her. 

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9 hours ago, Talk Show Host said:


You are simply jumping to immense conclusions here just to make your point. As others have showed you as well, Ellie was ready for it. We had the signs and then she also admits it. The entire story is based on the fact that Ellie couldn’t forgive Joel for what he had done. The ending of the LoUII is based on how she is able to find a way to forgive him. I really don’t know what you are arguing here but I have no more to offer on this topic.

You haven't really offered anything to begin with. 

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26 minutes ago, nakamura said:

You haven't really offered anything to begin with. 

 

Ah, the classic insulting comeback of someone who understands deep down that he is talking nonsense but his ego is unwilling to let go.

 

The heart of the internet. :P

 

 

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11 hours ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

You can't second guess what the character says. She says so by herself. She should have died on that table. You can't make Ellie feel what you want her to feel. 

 

No but stories aren't just characters walking around saying exactly what they feel at any given moment. It's insane to say that we have to take everything a character says at face value because they've said it and we can't know otherwise. There's emotion, subtext, internal conflict, all sorts of reasons that someone saying something isn't necessarily their true feelings. You can't make a character feel what you want but you can absolutely look for shades of grey in what they say. 

 

When Ellie says "I wanted to die on that table" sure she could be saying that she wanted to save humanity and be the hero, but she could also be saying that she wanted the choice to make that decision. Or, and for me this is most likely, that she feels guilty and responsible for what happened because she's still alive. I never got the sense that Ellie would 100% have decided to die if she'd been given the choice, but what she's cut up about is the fact that millions of people have died when it could have just been her and she doesn't know what she would have chosen. Look at the exchange with the Doctor when he's so sure killing Ellie is the right thing, then when he's asked about if it was his own daughter he goes silent. The ending from the first game isn't brilliant because we're watching Joel Break Bad, it's because of the central questions it asks and the different ways the answers play out in your head. 

 

If you asked me what I would have done being given the decision I would tell you 100 times out of 100 that I would die for humanity. But would I? I'd certainly hope so but what makes it brilliant is that it's so difficult a decision. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, BitterToad said:

 

No but stories aren't just characters walking around saying exactly what they feel at any given moment. It's insane to say that we have to take everything a character says at face value because they've said it and we can't know otherwise. There's emotion, subtext, all sorts of reasons that someone saying something isn't necessarily their true feelings. You can't make a character feel what you want but you can absolutely look for shades of grey in what they say. 

 

When Ellie says "I wanted to die on that table" sure she could be saying that she wanted to save humanity and be the hero, but she could also be saying that she wanted the choice to make that decision. Or, and for me this is most likely, that she feels guilty and responsible for what happened because she's still alive. I never got the sense that Ellie would 100% have decided to die if she'd been given the choice, but what she's cut up about is the fact that millions of people have died when it could have just been her and she doesn't know what she would have chosen. Look at the exchange with the Doctor when he's so sure killing Ellie is the right thing, then when he's asked about if it was his own daughter he goes silent. The ending from the first game isn't brilliant because we're watching Joel Break Bad, it's because of the central questions it asks and the different ways the answers play out in your head. 

 

If you asked me what I would have done being given the decision I would tell you 100 times out of 100 that I would die for humanity. But would I? I'd certainly hope so but what makes it brilliant is that it's so difficult a decision. 

 

 

 

While I certainly don't disagree that there layers and layers we can unravel in a story, at some point we need to pin down what works or not in the wider context, especially when there are signs and the main character says so. Ellie says "I was supposed to die in that table". That shows a character who has already made a decision and wants her life -her immunity- to mean something. She says so in the first game as well "she is waiting for her turn". All in all, it is safe to assume her wishes.

 

Also, we are not talking about Joel's action and if what he did was morally wrong or not or if another person would do the same or not, but why is Ellie angry at him. These are different things. Of course Joel's decision is a complex and difficult decision.

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4 minutes ago, Vemsie said:

Isn't it great that we have those discussions about a AAA game? Very few games achieve that. :)

 

Yeah, that was exactly what I was thinking right now. All points discussed are very interesting takes.

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4 hours ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

Ah, the classic insulting comeback of someone who understands deep down that he is talking nonsense but his ego is unwilling to let go.

 

The heart of the internet. :P

 

 

You've literally been insinuating I'm stupid because I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you, it's that simple. I agree with a couple of points, especially ones raised by @Liamness but ultimately I see nothing that suggests Ellie was ready at that specific moment at the end of the first game to sacrifice herself. 

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3 hours ago, BitterToad said:

 

No but stories aren't just characters walking around saying exactly what they feel at any given moment. It's insane to say that we have to take everything a character says at face value because they've said it and we can't know otherwise. There's emotion, subtext, internal conflict, all sorts of reasons that someone saying something isn't necessarily their true feelings. You can't make a character feel what you want but you can absolutely look for shades of grey in what they say. 

 

When Ellie says "I wanted to die on that table" sure she could be saying that she wanted to save humanity and be the hero, but she could also be saying that she wanted the choice to make that decision. Or, and for me this is most likely, that she feels guilty and responsible for what happened because she's still alive. I never got the sense that Ellie would 100% have decided to die if she'd been given the choice, but what she's cut up about is the fact that millions of people have died when it could have just been her and she doesn't know what she would have chosen. Look at the exchange with the Doctor when he's so sure killing Ellie is the right thing, then when he's asked about if it was his own daughter he goes silent. The ending from the first game isn't brilliant because we're watching Joel Break Bad, it's because of the central questions it asks and the different ways the answers play out in your head. 

 

If you asked me what I would have done being given the decision I would tell you 100 times out of 100 that I would die for humanity. But would I? I'd certainly hope so but what makes it brilliant is that it's so difficult a decision. 

 

 

Nailed it. 

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9 minutes ago, nakamura said:

You've literally been insinuating I'm stupid because I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you, it's that simple. I agree with a couple of points, especially ones raised by @Liamness but ultimately I see nothing that suggests Ellie was ready at that specific moment at the end of the first game to sacrifice herself. 

 

Apologies, I had no intention to come out like that. 

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17 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

Apologies, I had no intention to come out like that. 

No prob. 

 

FWIW, I thought Joel was a selfish prick first time around. Then I realised I could not consent to sacrifice someone I love even for the greater good. 

You'd have to kill me to take my daughter. 

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20 hours ago, BitterToad said:

 

No but stories aren't just characters walking around saying exactly what they feel at any given moment. It's insane to say that we have to take everything a character says at face value because they've said it and we can't know otherwise. There's emotion, subtext, internal conflict, all sorts of reasons that someone saying something isn't necessarily their true feelings. You can't make a character feel what you want but you can absolutely look for shades of grey in what they say. 

 

When Ellie says "I wanted to die on that table" sure she could be saying that she wanted to save humanity and be the hero, but she could also be saying that she wanted the choice to make that decision. Or, and for me this is most likely, that she feels guilty and responsible for what happened because she's still alive. I never got the sense that Ellie would 100% have decided to die if she'd been given the choice, but what she's cut up about is the fact that millions of people have died when it could have just been her and she doesn't know what she would have chosen. Look at the exchange with the Doctor when he's so sure killing Ellie is the right thing, then when he's asked about if it was his own daughter he goes silent. The ending from the first game isn't brilliant because we're watching Joel Break Bad, it's because of the central questions it asks and the different ways the answers play out in your head. 

 

If you asked me what I would have done being given the decision I would tell you 100 times out of 100 that I would die for humanity. But would I? I'd certainly hope so but what makes it brilliant is that it's so difficult a decision. 

 

 

 

All this speculation about what Ellie did and didn't want is irrelevant. At no point in all the conversations with Joel or anyone else does she say anything about wanting a 'choice' or having it taken away from her. If that is what she wanted (The 'choice' between dying to save humanity or saying "fuck you world" and living) why didn't she say that? I get all the points about survivors guilt and how important her immunity could have been to the world but its never portrayed as there being a 'choice' she was robbed of. Its the act of dying to save humanity and her life meaning something that she repeatedly refers to having had taken away from her, not that she lost the ultimate decision over what to do with it.

 

To say that Ellie deep down wanted a choice about what to do with her immunity suggests there is a part of her that would have told the Fireflies "thanks guys, but I'm just going to pass and carry on living a miserable existence while the world burns". The ending of the first game is so good because Joel makes that selfish choice that Ellie as a person in any stage of her life would never have made. It is what sets her apart from him as a character and what makes her almost becoming Joel in the sequel so important. @Talk Show Host and I discussed this exact thing at length before the sequel was released, that everything we have known and have seen of Ellie in the first game all but confirms that there is no 'choice' to make for her. She would simply sacrifice herself and its that fact which is fundamental to her entire journey across both games.

 

Of course, you can insinuate (and that's what it is) that as a typical human being she would question herself over what to do, but nothing about her at any point in either game suggests she would hesitate to give her life to save someone she loved, let alone the entire world.

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The biggest spoiler of Last of Us 2 is it spoiling other games because, whilst it isn’t the perfect game, the things it does well is streets ahead of anything else.

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14 hours ago, MardiganX said:

 but nothing about her at any point in either game suggests she would hesitate to give her life to save someone she loved, let alone the entire world.

 

Except of course that bit at the end when she is filled with doubt after speaking to Joel. Probably the biggest signal that she is unsure of anything. If she should live and try to be happy, or give herself up. She could have challenged him then. But she chose not to. 

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14 minutes ago, nakamura said:

 

Except of course that bit at the end when she is filled with doubt after speaking to Joel. Probably the biggest signal that she is unsure of anything. If she should live and try to be happy, or give herself up. She could have challenged him then. But she chose not to. 

 

Which is the exact thing @Talk Show Host and I had different views on, but it was never about Ellie doubting having a choice about what to do with her immunity. That bit you refer to is Ellie asking herself what she is going to do with the fact that she doesn't quite believe what Joel tells her. In the end she decides to trust him, to put her faith in him because whether she blindly believes him or chooses to ignore the doubts, the pain of confronting it at that point would be devastating to them both.

 

Plus that is a different 'choice' you are now referring to. Where before the 'choice' was about Ellie wanting to decide what to do with her immunity, as if she is the one that controls the decision. Now you are saying the 'choice' is Ellie deciding whether or not to trust Joel or to go back and giver herself up for the Fireflies. Those are two very different things.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, nakamura said:

The pain of confronting it could mean her death. More so because she doesn't know truly if he is truthful. Though she doubts it, she ultimately doesn't want to die.

 

 

If you took that from the end of the first game then fair enough. But it feels like a hell of a stretch for that moment to be Ellie running things through in her end to the point where she dies, especially when at at point she has no idea that the procedure to make a cure would in fact kill her. 

 

Again, its still a different 'choice' from what was discussed earlier where it was about her being able to choose what to do with her immunity.

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By the time Ellie and Joel reach Tommy's Dam in the original game they have narrowly escaped death numerous times and seen Tess get bitten and subsequently shot to death. She's also witnessed the demise of Henry and Sam.

 

If Ellie was truly afraid of dying surely she would have stayed in the relative safety of Tommy and Maria's settlement

 

The fact she wants to push on with Joel despite knowing how dangerous the outside world is shows me that she is willing to get to the Fireflies no matter the cost

 

"It can't be for nothing"

 

 

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