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“SPOILER THREAD” - The Last Of Us Part 2


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Indeed. Henry, Sam, Tess and co dying can't be for nothing. But Ellie isn't told she will die. Joel didn't know until the very end. She is never given the choice. She knows Joel is lying at the end but she doesn't want to face the truth. So she accepts his version of it because she is unsure what to do. 

 

The doubt in her was massive. She isn't stupid, nor is she afraid to face Joel, or any difficult situations. But she knows, she knew why Joel took her out of there. 

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Yeah i'm not disagreeing that she doesn't know what's really going on, just the fact that posters are saying she didn't want to die at the firefly base when there is evidence to the contrary .

52 minutes ago, nakamura said:

she ultimately doesn't want to die.

 

 

She's already resigned herself to the fact she was going to die in the ending to the first game but it never came.

 

"Back when I was bitten, I wasn't alone. My best friend was there. And she got bit too. We didn't know what to do. So...She says, "Let's just wait it out. Y'know, we can be all poetic and just lose our minds together". I'm still waiting for my turn..."

 

 

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10 minutes ago, nakamura said:

Indeed. Henry, Sam, Tess and co dying can't be for nothing. But Ellie isn't told she will die. Joel didn't know until the very end. She is never given the choice. She knows Joel is lying at the end but she doesn't want to face the truth. So she accepts his version of it because she is unsure what to do. 

 

The doubt in her was massive. She isn't stupid, nor is she afraid to face Joel, or any difficult situations. But she knows, she knew why Joel took her out of there. 

 

She is unconscious from the point the Fireflies find Joel and her in the sewer until she wakes up in the back of the car. How the fuck does she know why Joel took her out of there?

 

There is no disputing that Ellie has doubts over what Joel tells her but its not because she has some hidden knowledge that she doesn't reveal to Joel.

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1 minute ago, MardiganX said:

 

She is unconscious from the point the Fireflies find Joel and her in the sewer until she wakes up in the back of the car. How the fuck does she why Joel took her out of there?

 

There is no disputing that Ellie has doubts over what Joel tells her but its not because she has some hidden knowledge that she doesn't reveal to Joel.

Calm down. 

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I'll go further. I'll step out, because this started with a discussion around Ellie apparently being robbed of the 'choice' she wanted around what to do with her immunity and is now whatever suits you to justify further replies.

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1 minute ago, nakamura said:

That doesn't mean she is ready for it. That doesn't mean she actually accepts it either. Especially as at that moment, she chose not to press it. 

 

Well the beauty of it is it's ambiguous, neither of us know for certain. There's plenty of hints in the script and her actions that she is prepared to die.

 

Even Marlene comments that she can't believe they made it alive across the US. It was an impossible suicide mission.

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Just now, Down by Law said:

 

Well the beauty of it is it's ambiguous, neither of us know for certain. There's plenty of hints in the script and her actions that she is prepared to die.

 

Even Marlene comments that she can't believe they made it alive across the US. It was an impossible suicide mission.

Agreed don't get me wrong. I'm not at all saying you're wrong. But for me, she knows.

 

When she is suddenly outside with Joel, if everything was ok and a cure was easy to procure, why would she not wake up in the hospital, safely? That's why I feel she knows. And she, at that particular moment, felt unsure because she had become so used to surviving, and grown to care for Joel too. And so on. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Peb Kacharach said:

I read Ellie’s reaction in the original ending how nakamura explained it and it’s why I struggle with the way it is addressed in the flashback scenes in the sequel.

 

I could buy Ellie realising, contemplating and resenting Joel, even growing distant and angry, but I thought the way those conversations played out in flashbacks were a weak link. Especially her travelling back to the hospital.

 

Why were they a weak link?

 

Surely the way they played out certainly shows that what you thought of the ending was not in line with what the writers meant? 

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16 hours ago, Strafe said:

The biggest spoiler of Last of Us 2 is it spoiling other games because, whilst it isn’t the perfect game, the things it does well is streets ahead of anything else.

 

Yeah, feel the same way about Dark Souls melee combat. It seems to have ruined all other action rpg combat for me. I've been trying to force myself through the Witcher 3 (because lockdown) and the combat is just "meh" compared to DS.

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2 hours ago, Tomdominer said:

 

Yeah, feel the same way about Dark Souls melee combat. It seems to have ruined all other action rpg combat for me. I've been trying to force myself through the Witcher 3 (because lockdown) and the combat is just "meh" compared to DS.


yeah I went straight from my first run through of Dark Souls to The Witcher 3. 
 

the woolly combat - after DS - eventually saw my throw in the towel after about 20 hours or so. I’d been doing some missions in a main city. . . .

 

i still feel I should revisit at some point. 

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9 hours ago, Tomdominer said:

 

Yeah, feel the same way about Dark Souls melee combat. It seems to have ruined all other action rpg combat for me. I've been trying to force myself through the Witcher 3 (because lockdown) and the combat is just "meh" compared to DS.


I can’t say I fell for Dark Souls charms but Sekiro cast a similar spell on me. Ghost of Tushima had decent enough combat but nothing compared to the glory of the one armed wolf.

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10 hours ago, Peb Kacharach said:


They were flat and unconvincing in the way they were written, framed and directed - compared to the rest of the game. I specifically mentioned twice that I did not like the scene with Ellie returning to the hospital because not only was it implausible (and the journey would make a game in itself) but the subsequent scene with Joel outside was too on-the-nose as Ellie could’ve deduced what happened whilst in Jackson... and that is disregarding my feelings about consistency with regards Ellie’s reaction and my interpretation of the original ending.


While I think I agree with the journey back to the hospital (although I’m not sure about the distances), it doesn’t ruin the game or the flashbacks in general. How could it? I feel they played an important part in the game and they were beautiful and emotionally strong.
 

The problem was not Ellie deducing what happened. The problem was finding proof because she had deduced that something was wrong and there was no way she would believe Joel. Ellie decided to go to the hospital because she simply couldn’t trust Joel anymore. She wanted proof.
 

When she finds out that Joel saved her instead of letting her die in order to create the vaccine she almost goes into shock. She needed to know, deducing was not enough.

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4 hours ago, Peb Kacharach said:


It’s absolutely ok for us both to feel differently about this because it’s a work of art that will provoke different reactions. You do veer here into talking with certainty about how the character would feel and act, which explains why you respond to those scenes in this way, but we can interpret the game differently and disagree on this. Personally, whilst a lot of it was gripping and landed emotionally, those scenes felt to me like they’d been handled with less care. Ellie returning to the hospital for “proof” was a simplistic solution, when nuanced dialogue and facial capture proved more effective elsewhere. 
It’s a sequence I would cut.


I don’t argue with that, of course we can interpret things differently. The point is that when a character has a reasonable motive to do something then we have a basis to talk about good storytelling or not. Imo you are generalizing about Ellie needing proof by saying “it was simplistic”, which is a personal take. While I have no issue with that it certainly doesn’t help the conversation much.
 

By disregarding the character’s motive any story can be twisted into anything and progress or intent make no difference to discussing the art of storytelling. It would be much better to present an argument about why the character is doing something and not about the process you would prefer it being done, because that is something so objective there is really no argument against that. In other words, if you are just saying you didn’t like that, it’s perfectly acceptable.
 

Ellie going to the hospital is necessary in order to obtain proof since her trust in Joel is shuttered. That is a logical choice for her based on the story at that point. You can argue that they should have done that another way but you must provide an alternative which suits the character. Simply saying that they should use dialogue like other places doesn’t really engage with her inability to trust Joel.
 

Dialogue doesn’t work at that point, Ellie needs proof and proof doesn’t come from words anymore because trust doesn’t exist.

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22 minutes ago, Peb Kacharach said:


OK, well off the top of my head:

 

Ellie grows distant and distrustful of Joel as she gets older. Joel confides in Tommy about what happened to Ellie. Tommy lets details slip during a scrape on a patrol with either Ellie herself or a peripheral character. Ellie confronts Joel in Jackson. 
 

Your argument is the decisions taken by the devs are unquestionable, regardless of how they landed with other players. 
 

It’s stretching plausibility that Ellie would even locate and find proof on returning to the hospital a year or two later, assuming she survived the journey.


I can understand that better for sure. Now it comes down if this would be better for dramatic purposes. Having Tommy revealing the truth by accident after swearing he would take the secret to his grave is one of the most tiring storytelling tropes and certainly the easy way out for the writers imo. I have a feeling people would ”bury” Druckmann if the most important moment in the game happened that way.
 

Ellie confronting Joel in front of the hospital where everything happened is a much better culmination of her lack of trust, more dramatic and more natural for her emotional state. It resonates with the player and it brings the people he or she loves the most in an ultimate confrontation. Not every one will like it but I have rarely seen people complaining about the scene. 


There are rules on storytelling, how sequences follow each other, ways it can evoke emotion, etc. I don’t claim the devs choices are unquestionable, but on this level they certainly don’t simply do what they feel like. 

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32 minutes ago, Peb Kacharach said:

 

But however it gets out, Joel admitting it is as good as her finding proof. And if there relationship grows distant, it's something Joel might have spoken out about. Her pilgrimage back to the operating room, a place she was never consciously aware of, is superfluous.

 

I might have accepted the scene outside had it been shot and acted differently, for want of better terms. Joel riding up on horseback and then this awkward conversation taking place with them both stood about. I'd have to watch it back to fully analyse, but compared to the domestic scenes there wasn't much emoting or tension going on in the scene.

 

Yeah, I can see that. The fact that Joel admitted what he had done in front of the hospital was a dramatic choice for Druckmann, to make the scene even more tense, though I can understand if the appearance of him felt a bit rushed to some. 

 

I personally did not have serious issues with the scene because playing as an older Ellie in the hospital where everything happened felt proper for what she needed. It was the perfect way to know the truth because she was asleep last time she was there. Walking in the corridors and exploring the rooms of the aftermath felt like Ellie digging inside Joel's mind for the truth, a great metaphor in discovering his deepest secret.  Seeing him arrive and confronting him was a great culmination and also shows her willingness to believe him, which is so beautifully tragic. Even with the proof she needs him to say it. She doesn't want it to be true. 

 

There would be no way to have this emotional complexity in my opinion if she didn't go there.

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The revelation outside the hospital was a great scene . And perfectly in line with the tension built up behind Ellie suspecting and wanting to discover the truth because she knew she wasn’t going to get it from Joel .

 

Now , can we move on ffs?

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On 05/08/2020 at 09:56, Vemsie said:

Really interesting and very well researched article from someone who experienced trauma herself.
https://www.sofistake.com/blogs/understanding-ellies-trauma

I've seen and read so many interesting things about this game already and it probably won't be the last. As some of us said earlier, it's so rare for a game to achieve that, let alone a massive AAA one.

 

This is actually very well written, thanks for posting it. 

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2 hours ago, Thor said:

Heh, these past several pages have been an absolute shit shower of nonsense from some posters. :lol:

The posts were a lot more interesting than this one, that's for sure. 

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