Jump to content

I May Destroy You - BBC Masterpiece


Recommended Posts

Recycling a post I made a few pages back, as it's relevant here -

 

The issue with Kwame was one of consent, wasn't it? If the girl had known he was gay beforehand, she wouldn't have slept with him. So the basis on which she provided consent was false.

 

Similar to Terry's threesome - when she found out the guys had planned it, she felt very different about it.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

So any Bi person who doesn't explicitly reveal there sexuality before having sex, or any man who tries same sex for the first time but doesn't say the have previously only had straight sex are sexually predators?

 

None of the above have applied to me, so I'm not having this discussion to defend any past behaviour, if that is any you think I'm having this discussion.

 

Although, though I identify as gay I'd be open to the idea of sex with women if the right circumstances came about (I dunno what these circumstances would be )- I've never expressed this to men before hooking up with them so I dunno where that sits?

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Dapple said:

Recycling a post I made a few pages back, as it's relevant here -

 

The issue with Kwame was one of consent, wasn't it? If the girl had known he was gay beforehand, she wouldn't have slept with him. So the basis on which she provided consent was false.

 

Similar to Terry's threesome - when she found out the guys had planned it, she felt very different about it.


I think I agree with this, although I think Terry’s situation falls into a slightly greyer area than Kwame’s. I’m not sure why, but that’s how I felt.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Dapple said:

 

The issue with Kwame was one of consent, wasn't it? If the girl had known he was gay beforehand, she wouldn't have slept with him. So the basis on which she provided consent was false.

 

 

 

For me, how I read that scene, was that Kwame was unsure of his sexuality at this point...hence why he wanted to sleep with a woman. 

 

Maybe, I miss read it, I didn't see this as a premeditated plan (like the Threesome) set to trick someone into sex but someone with genuine intentions.

 

I get that he misrepresented his past...

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Fierce Poodle said:


Sorry, I’m confused by this. In what way was she homophobic? 

 

She literally said faggot to Kwame and complained about "faggots" several times.

 

I don't know how you can defend that as not homophobic.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Isaac said:

 

She literally said faggot to Kwame and complained about "faggots" several times.

 

I don't know how you can defend that as not homophobic.

Ah, okay fair enough. I’m not defending her, I genuinely forgot about the “faggot” stuff.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Although @ZOK whilst I agree with you completely I do think the plot would have been even more interesting if it turned out that Kwame was bisexual and then kicked off at her dropping the f-bomb.

 

Would a bisexual man have to declare that they were bisexual before having sex with someone? 

 

Bit more grey.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, Isaac said:

Although @ZOK whilst I agree with you completely I do think the plot would have been even more interesting if it turned out that Kwame was bisexual and then kicked off at her dropping the f-bomb.

 

Would a bisexual man have to declare that they were bisexual before having sex with someone? 

 

Bit more grey.

 

Kwame said during that scene that sexuality is a spectrum and he wasn't sure if he was [gay] - I think he only defined himself as gay as a reaction to challenge her homophobia. 

 

I think one of her major motivators in how she reacted wasn't that he lied to her but that he said he was gay. 

 

 If not admitting your gay is sexual predictory then the same should be true for bisexuality??

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ZOK said:


NO IT FUCKING WASN’T.

 

Sweet Jesus, get a fucking clue son. This whole programme was wasted on you.

 

Calm down, @Papaya Dance is merely saying the interaction between them is more grey than accusing Kwame of being a predator, if anyone hasn't understood the that it's you by being so didactic and aggressive with your opinions. You seem to see this as such a black and white moral conundrum but it isn't, as many have mentioned here sexuality is a very fluid thing and defining yourself as one thing doesn't mean you can't in the future be another, I speak of this from experience so your aggressive shouting down of @Papaya Dance for trying to explain that is rude and comes across as someone who perhaps hasn't ever had to think in these terms. Sexuality isn't fixed like marriage, I'm pretty sure Michaela Cole was on Kwames side when she wrote this as it's the girl who come across as the total arsehole by the end of that storyline. I hope you take some time to reflect on what is being discussed and your responses to @Papaya Dance as that's the only reason I made this post.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Isaac said:

Would a bisexual man have to declare that they were bisexual before having sex with someone? 

 

Nail on head here, it's a very difficult thing to tell people, especially people you have just met/have an attraction to.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Predictably enough, I'm with Zok on this one.

 

One of the enormous points being made in this series is that certain groups (men, straight people, white people) need to stop giving their interpretation of situations and start listening. If this is a story of a woman who felt deceived and predated upon by Kwame, going 'yeah but...', is insisting on your voice being heard. Which is not exactly the point. Because nobody cares. This is not your TED Talk. 

 

I think people are being a little charitable by suggesting he didn't set out to be a predator too, since they made some pretty telling visual juxtapositions. It doesn't matter than the victim was a homophobic arsehole. That doesn't diminish her victimhood.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, schmojo said:

Predictably enough, I'm 

 

I think people are being a little charitable by suggesting he didn't set out to be a predator too, since they made some pretty telling visual juxtapositions. It doesn't matter than the victim was a homophobic arsehole. That doesn't diminish her victimhood.

 

You're right. I think I was blinded by her homophobia that I didn't properly consider how she experienced the encounter.

 

Curious, what were the visual juxtapositions?

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
 

 


He forced her into the same position he was raped in. He wanted to reassert his own control, even if it was at someone else's cost.

 
 

 

 

It doesn't diminish his own victimhood either.  One of the things I love so much about the show is the interplay between judgement, guilt, cycles of abuse and traditional perceptions of these events.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

58 minutes ago, schmojo said:
  Hide contents

 


He forced her into the same position he was raped in. He wanted to reassert his own control, even if it was at someone else's cost.

 
 

 

 

It doesn't diminish his own victimhood either.  One of the things I love so much about the show is the interplay between judgement, guilt, cycles of abuse and traditional perceptions of these events.

 

I interpreted it that he moved into that position during sex (unwittingly?) and then had flash backs of his own trauma- I didn't see it as a powerful or cathartic experience for him.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I figured he'd had the absolute intent to do it. And partially that's why he deceived a straight woman —someone he believed he could absolutely control.

 

I mean, it could have been incidental, but nothing else in the show is. And it wouldn't carry much resonance.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, schmojo said:

Predictably enough, I'm with Zok on this one.

 

One of the enormous points being made in this series is that certain groups (men, straight people, white people) need to stop giving their interpretation of situations and start listening. If this is a story of a woman who felt deceived and predated upon by Kwame, going 'yeah but...', is insisting on your voice being heard. Which is not exactly the point. Because nobody cares. This is not your TED Talk. 

 

I think people are being a little charitable by suggesting he didn't set out to be a predator too, since they made some pretty telling visual juxtapositions. It doesn't matter than the victim was a homophobic arsehole. That doesn't diminish her victimhood.

Being straight, white and male doesn't stop me having an opinion on something that may only happen to black men or gay men or white women or black women or old women any more than not being a politician doesn't stop me having an opinion on politics. I am capable of empathy and understanding emotions outside of my immediate experience. I've no Jewish relatives but that doesn't mean I'm about say 'yeah but Hitler had a point didn't he'.

 

By watching the show we HAVE listened, we're not just spouting our opinion as important straight white males thinking that we know best. The very fact that there's a debate going on about this shows that the show achieved its objectives in getting people talking about consent and sexuality in general. That doesn't mean we should all sit back and say 'well that's what happened in the show so it must be the correct interpretation of events'.

 

That said, and as I mentioned at the beginning of all this, I agree Kwame was in the wrong. But there IS a debate to be had and it fucks me off when I'm told I'm not allowed to have an opinion on something.

 

 

 

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Papaya Dance said:

By watching the show we HAVE listened

 

Based on the rest of your post, I fundamentally disagree with this statement. 

 

You're prepared to listen until it's your time to talk. But it's never your time to talk in this case.  Your hot take is not of consequence. Fuck, it's like BLM never even got going sometimes.

 

Stop waiting to talk, and just keep listening.

 

I mean, if you want to. Don't if you don't. It's not the law.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, schmojo said:

I figured he'd had the absolute intent to do it. And partially that's why he deceived a straight woman —someone he believed he could absolutely control.

 

I mean, it could have been incidental, but nothing else in the show is. And it wouldn't carry much resonance.

 

So you think that he planned it all before the date? I'm not sure...the show was pretty sympathetic towards him if that was the case.

 

I took it that his experience made him question his sexuality and he wanted to have sex with a woman - Not considering how she would feel about this and lied (by omission) to facilitate this.

 

I don't think "I can control women to reassert my dominance" was in his thinking, but that's just how I interpreted it.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Delargey said:

 

So you think that he planned it all before the date? I'm not sure...the show was pretty sympathetic towards him if that was the case.

 

I took it that his experience made him question his sexuality and he wanted to have sex with a woman - Not considering how she would feel about this and lied (by omission) to facilitate this.

 

I don't think "I can control women to reassert my dominance" was in his thinking, but that's just how I interpreted it.

 

I think he certainly had it in mind. The show is sympathetic to plenty of abusers, which is one of the interesting things it tackles so well.

 

For me, the whole thing just dovetails far too neatly with the trauma before, the action during, and the contrition afterwards to be anything else. Each character has a journey of being the abuser and the abused. I don't think he genuinely doubted his sexuality. Or at least, if that was the intent, they didn't signpost it as strongly.

 

Although...



It plays out that Kwame's active sex life essentially began with a situation that could be interpreted as assault, and could easily have set his barometer for acceptable abuse. It's possible that he was attempting to investigate whether or not the tropes of abuse were only present in the gay life he'd experienced, or outside of it too.

 

But there's always the chance it was a bit of both too, and not so clear cut.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, schmojo said:

 

Based on the rest of your post, I fundamentally disagree with this statement. 

 

You're prepared to listen until it's your time to talk. But it's never your time to talk in this case.  Your hot take is not of consequence. Fuck, it's like BLM never even got going sometimes.

 

Stop waiting to talk, and just keep listening.

 

I mean, if you want to. Don't if you don't. It's not the law.

 

 

Absolute horseshit. Sorry, but the show was clearly designed to get people talking about these issues, not to preach the gospel truth which will end the debate once and for all. The fact I'm agreeing with you about who was in the wrong but you're still insisting I've missed the point is bizarre. 

 

I'm not trying to give my 'hot take', I'm interested to see what conclusions others have formed from the show and compare them to my own. My immediate reaction was that the girl completely overreacted and Kwame had done little wrong. This thread has changed my mind on that. As a healthy debate is capable of doing. Shutting down any counter arguments with 'you're white and male so you can't have a view' is really counterproductive.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a bit of experience of this. This was years and years ago - I was 16/17 or younger maybe. I would go to my local indie club every week. For months I would get off with a guy every week.
 

I was really into him and after a while asked if he wanted to for a drink sometime and he said “sorry Laine I’m gay” Of course I didn’t know because for weeks we’ve been snogging and I thought you were into me!
 

The next week he turned up with a guy and that was that. I was actually pretty upset as I liked him a lot. I was quite hurt and bewildered why he would bother with me to just lead me on. I thought there was a connection that could have gone somewhere and there was no chance he was actually interested. I could have spent those nights after someone more available! :D

 

anyway! This is just a long ramble now but I certainly understand someone being very shocked and upset by it even though my experience is obviously a lot more innocent. The mid 90s! What a time. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Kwarme was genuine in his feelings towards her,  Schmojo has a different view (which is a testament to the complexity of the show), but after they had sex he said "I think your cool" I think if she hadn't revealed her homophobia he would have tried to continue the relationship- he said sexuality is fluid and that he wasn't sure if he was gay...obviously his previous sexual history would still be an issue if that scenario played out.

 

I don't think he expected her to react the way she did, which of course is the problem because he was only concerned with his interests at the cost of hers.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Delargey said:

I think Kwarme was genuine in his feelings towards her,  Schmojo has a different view (which is a testament to the complexity of the show), but after they had sex he said "I think your cool" I think if she hadn't revealed her homophobia he would have tried to continue the relationship- he said sexuality is fluid and that he wasn't sure if he was gay...obviously his previous sexual history would still be an issue if that scenario played out.

 

I don't think he expected her to react the way she did, which of course is the problem because he was only concerned with his interests at the cost of hers.

 

For me the 'I think you're cool' bit came at the point of realisation that he wasn't the same kind of predator, despite specifically putting himself in the physical position to find out. It was also a way of being non-committal about the fact that he didn't fancy her, giving her a sexless compliment whilst also not misleading her any further.

 

From the POV you've got, do you think he was exploring women as an option because he'd suffered abuse recently at the hands of men? Or maybe even because his depicted gay experiences had been without sentiment or romance? Or something else, obvs.

 

He mentioned sexuality being fluid, but he identifies as gay in a heartbeat, and had never slept with another woman. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, schmojo said:

 

From the POV you've got, do you think he was exploring women as an option because he'd suffered abuse recently at the hands of men? 

 

This one.

 

Quote

He mentioned sexuality being fluid, but he identifies as gay in a heartbeat, and had never slept with another woman. 

 

 

He mentions being sexually fluid to Arabella and Terry at the start of the episode so I don't think it was just as flippant comment to the woman.

 

I think he identified himself as gay as a direct challenge to her homophobia rather than, necessarily, describing his sexual identity at that moment. 

 

I think part of the show is about listening to the voices of minorities, so I don't think we should define 'who he is' based on how we perceive sexuality.

 

Kwarme tells us he is gay, then he says that sexuality is fluid and he wants to have sex with a woman, then he's gay - all of these are valid and should be believed. I don't think him not sleeping with an other woman is particularly telling - perhaps the homophobia he encountered with his first heterosexual relationship put him off? I didn't take it to read 'he was gay all along'

 

I approached from the attitude that due to his trauma Kwame wanted to explore other sexual options in an authentic way, but omitted truths about his past in order to facilitate this exploration - in away that was harmful. 

 

 

 

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.