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Football Thread 2020/2021


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I think it’s obvious now to most people that for clubs such as Liverpool local fans are nothing more than a marketing tool, used to make “future fans” feel like they belong to something. The whole image of the club is based on this.They play on the connection between the club and the locality and the strong bond while not giving a flying one about the local area or the people. 
 

As much as some people will not like it, the current owners are the club. Their ethos is now the football clubs ethos. We Coventry fans learned that the hard way. 

 


 

 

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6 hours ago, deerokus said:

Perez went on Spanish TV and gave a car crash interview where he stated flat out that it's a desperate play to stop Real (and probably Barcelona) going bankrupt.

Perez is one of the architects of the financial woes that Madrid find themselves under. That seemingly intelligent (and greedy) owners are being lead by him and Agnelli is mind boggling. Highlights that the priority for the owners is now financial growth over sporting success. The English teams will be directly helping their competitors by alleviating their debt. I can understand the need for Arsenal and Spurs to sign up to this but United, City and Chelsea seem as financially stable as a club could be at the moment. Press home the advantage. 
 


 

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You don’t need a worldwide football cap on wages, a localised cap in England would do. At the moment China and Qatar are willing to pay whatever anyone wants, but no one wants to move there.

 

If the PL put a cap on wages, good players would still want to play in England. 

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9 hours ago, Pockets said:

Where is the money supposed to be coming from for this league? That’s what I don’t get. They say it’s about chasing money but what money? From where?

 

No sponsor or TV company will want to touch it - it’s toxic. So where? Doesn’t seem like the fans are keen? Where’s the money supposed to come from?

 

I think they’ve fucked it already. It won’t happen because there’s no money there. 

 

9 hours ago, Pants McSkill said:

 

JP Morgan have confirmed they are the primary backers.

 

9 hours ago, Stigweard said:

 

JP Morgan are investing something stupid like £3bn into it and I honestly don't think corporate sponsors/TV companies will give a fuck, just like they won't for Qatar 2022. They'll jump right on this.

 

I think at the end of the day it's the fans that need to show the most backbone and restraint. Don't go to the games etc. Nothing says "Elite League" more than games with half empty stands.

 

Abroad.  The "legacy fans" don't contribute enough, but if they go to China, Japan, basically anywhere in Asia they'll make silly money, that's where the money is.  Sponsors and TV companies will be all over this, because there'll be eyeballs all over it, whether it's in Europe or Asia.

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I've seen the term 'comfort league' used ot describe this idea, and I think it fits pretty well.

 

One reason that I never really got into any of the sport in Australia, despite living here17 years, are that there are no divisions, nor anything beyond the top spot and coming first in the league. There's essentially nothing to play for but pride each season. The opposite in fact, as the draft system in the AFL means the team that comes last gets all kinds of bonuses the next season to give them a leg up, so you get teams at the lower end of the league really trying not to be too obvious in trying to lose so they can come dead last.

 

 

This league would seem to fit that mould. 

 

I hope it's a play to try and get more money from the leagues / EUFA / FIFA because I would hate the be one of the fans of these clubs if they piss off to do their own think expecting their fans to just follow blindly.

 

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Along with such now-empty slogans as "This means more", "Pride in Battle" (Man City's slogan) and "Victory grows out of harmony" (laughably Arsenal's official motto), your reminder that Barca' motto is 'mes que un club'.

Why? In their own words:

"More than a club because we feel that such VALUES as humility, ambition, effort, teamwork and respect are just as important a part of the way we play as winning."

 

 

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So what are people going to do at an individual level - this really isn't the time for any sort of 'I support the club not the owners' bollocks which is used to justify still lining their pockets.

 

Personally I'm done with going to games and will be relinquishing my season tickets for Arsenal when they come up for renewal. Doubt it will achieve anything with such a long waiting list for them, even if 10,000 people do likewise.

 

I can't quite bring myself yet to not watch on TV as I subscribe to sports channels for a whole range of stuff, and whilst I can watch the odd game on a snide stream I won't do that for everything I want to see. IF (big IF) Superleague ever happens on a service like DAZN or some bespoke service I will not pay for it to watch.

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Why don’t they just buy clubs in Asia or America and sign whoever they want. Leave us here with our legacy clubs. 
 

Premier league is as much to blame as these owners. They let the leeches in and the only reason they blocked the Saudis was because they pirated football and not because they had a man killed in the Turkish embassy. 
 

Champions league in the last few years has been good to watch. Some of the groups can be boring, but there are other groups that can be entertaining. We had two of the founder clubs, Dortmund and Shakhtar in one  group. Inter finished last. The Man United, PSG and Leipzig group was good too. I just don’t get this urge to change it. Yeah you going to get a few teams that are not going to be as competitive, so what you going to do? Throw them out or something. They got in the tournament by right. The knockouts have always been good. 
 

This super league is just meaningless friendlies with no consequences. How will that be entertaining? Klopps right that nobody wants to watch Madrid vs Liverpool every year. The fixture loses its spark. Plus how many times is Man United vs Liverpool going to happen in a season as a result of this or Barca vs Madrid. 

 

I also don’t think some of these clubs have thought about the impact of their brand with this super league. A lot of these clubs besides Spurs have won stuff. Some of these clubs will be laughing stocks in a Super league. Man Uniteds brand got bigger because they kept winning. In the premier league they are going to win most their games. In a super league that won’t be guaranteed. How is that going to generate new fans or even sponsors? I know United have been shite in recent years, but in the premier league they still are favourites for majority of games, where as in the super league they could be potential whipping boys for the rest. That goes for Arsenal and Spurs too. 

 

This is driven by two Spanish clubs that have been jealous of the prem money. One that needs to fund a new stadium and the other that has been mismanaged for a decade, somehow managed to waste £200m that they received from PSG. Looks like the government isn’t bailing them out, so they looking to this for the solution. 

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45 minutes ago, the_debaser said:

You don’t need a worldwide football cap on wages, a localised cap in England would do. At the moment China and Qatar are willing to pay whatever anyone wants, but no one wants to move there.

 

If the PL put a cap on wages, good players would still want to play in England. 

 

Nope. It needs to be worldwide. Players’ agents would immediately get them on the plane to the Spanish or Italian leagues if only the PL introduced a cap.

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9 hours ago, hauk said:

I love the Champions League and TBH the new format is going make it even worse, so I can see why the big clubs are not happy about it.

 

The big clubs have no issues whatsoever about the new Champions League format. Guaranteed places? More games? Less chance of being eliminated? Ticks almost all the boxes.

 

They just don't get a big enough piece of the money pie for their liking.

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Salary caps have always been a non starter, leagues have always vied for top dog status so don't want to hamstring their ability to make themselves attractive in the players on show, plus its a legal minefield in terms of EU law, its the next Bosman waiting to happen the second somebody tries it. 

 

In theory FFP was meant to be something to help control the spiralling wages and encourage infrastructure spending but we all know how that turned out (and no it was never meant to be a measure to stop nouveau riche clubs, just look at what happened with Chelsea, City, PSG - not exactly stopped them has it ?)

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55 minutes ago, the_debaser said:

If the PL put a cap on wages, good players would still want to play in England.

 

I have to disagree - the Premier League's attraction is a cycle of money and talent, and the money came first.

 

A salary cap in England alone would reduce its financial clout, lead to an exodus of the top talent, and thus reduce the attractiveness of the league for future transfers. While this would probably greatly improve the situation in England in isolation - a more competitive league without a small handful of elite clubs - it would do absolutely nothing to address the problem at the highest level.

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Not a big fan of salary caps because it just means more money for these greedy owners. These owners would love that to happen. The best solution would be the German 50+1 model. Give the fans back control of their clubs. 
 

Premier league football lost its touch years ago. The ticket prices are a joke compared to Germany. You would think with how much teams make with the TV money that they would lower the ticket prices, but nope they just keep increasing them.

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20 minutes ago, Shevchenko said:

I also don’t think some of these clubs have thought about the impact of their brand with this super league. A lot of these clubs besides Spurs have won stuff. Some of these clubs will be laughing stocks in a Super league. Man Uniteds brand got bigger because they kept winning. In the premier league they are going to win most their games. In a super league that won’t be guaranteed. How is that going to generate new fans or even sponsors? I know United have been shite in recent years, but in the premier league they still are favourites for majority of games, where as in the super league they could be potential whipping boys for the rest. That goes for Arsenal and Spurs too. 

 

Of course they haven't.  Like in politics, the people who want to implement this are looking at it short term and want to make as much money as they can now, the moment it falls away when everyone is bored of Madrid v Man U they'll sell their shares and buy into the next "big thing", leaving football as a husk of what it once was.  It's not about continued sustainment, it's about make as much money as possible right now for the shareholders while we can.

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But, but, but Perez said this is about saving all of football, why would he be lying to us?! 

 

Ignoring all the rubbish spouted, one thing that he did mention - and a BBC Q&A thing also picked up on, was that younger people aren't as keen on watching games these days and tend to follow players rather than clubs. I'd be interested in any studies done on that, anyone know of any? 

 

The point about attracting new fans is likely to be valid though, just like any other aspect of the entertainment industry there are so many things competing for our time.

 

This super league idea is in no way the answer though, considering that your teams involvement in it could essentially be over within about 3/4 games if you lose them all, and then everything becomes a dead-rubber. If Perez thinks people are bored with matches at the moment, wait until you have three-quarters of teams in this mini league with nothing to play for.

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8 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Ignoring all the rubbish spouted, one thing that he did mention - and a BBC Q&A thing also picked up on, was that younger people aren't as keen on watching games these days and tend to follow players rather than clubs. I'd be interested in any studies done on that, anyone know of any?

 

There has definitely been an attempt by some players (Cristiano Ronaldo for one) to build their brand to be bigger than the club in the same ways as the very best NBA players have become bigger than their teams and effectively, mercenaries for one or two year rent.  That's not a criticism of them, by the way, but the NBA is now a very player-driven league - or shall we say, a very small number of players driven league.

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52 minutes ago, Gotters said:

So what are people going to do at an individual level - this really isn't the time for any sort of 'I support the club not the owners' bollocks which is used to justify still lining their pockets.

 

Personally I'm done with going to games and will be relinquishing my season tickets for Arsenal when they come up for renewal. Doubt it will achieve anything with such a long waiting list for them, even if 10,000 people do likewise.

 

I can't quite bring myself yet to not watch on TV as I subscribe to sports channels for a whole range of stuff, and whilst I can watch the odd game on a snide stream I won't do that for everything I want to see. IF (big IF) Superleague ever happens on a service like DAZN or some bespoke service I will not pay for it to watch.


Will you give up your ticket if this all blows over and doesn’t go ahead?

 

I’d like to say I canned sky last year but the reality is I moved out and when we move I’ll be back onto a sub, getting by on a sky go sub at the moment and I miss watching football - the season going into the pandemic I went to more love games at Spurs and Norwich than I have for years and applied for a Norwich season ticket (not had one in decades) again I’d like to say I won’t give Spurs season ticket money but I’m 67k on the waiting list.....

 

Weird time for Spurs as looking forward to the managerial rumours while also being disgusted by the club, I’d like to think Levy is cunning enough to back away from this ASAP but you wonder what kinda contract they have signed up for...

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8 minutes ago, Shimmyhill said:


Will you give up your ticket if this all blows over and doesn’t go ahead?

 

Nope, I can't with any good conscience stick over £2.5k into the pockets of the Kroenke's to run the club the way they currently see fit - it's not just this, its the gradual erosion over time of any pretence at caring for the people sat in the stadium, too many games kicking off at weird times for tv, bent transfer dealings. It all adds up.

 

It's not a huff we're now crap, though that of course doesn't help matters.

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12 minutes ago, Fry Crayola said:

Have there been any significant assenting voices other than the mouthpieces of the very clubs breaking away?

None.

 

Given the BBC can dredge up a Flat-earther, or an anti-vaxxer, or a 5G-causes-Corona-cos-the-government-are-giving-it-to-us-on-purpose mouthpiece with about 20 minutes notice, that's quite the thing.

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36 minutes ago, Gabe said:

But, but, but Perez said this is about saving all of football, why would he be lying to us?! 

 

Ignoring all the rubbish spouted, one thing that he did mention - and a BBC Q&A thing also picked up on, was that younger people aren't as keen on watching games these days and tend to follow players rather than clubs. I'd be interested in any studies done on that, anyone know of any? 

 

The point about attracting new fans is likely to be valid though, just like any other aspect of the entertainment industry there are so many things competing for our time.

 

This super league idea is in no way the answer though, considering that your teams involvement in it could essentially be over within about 3/4 games if you lose them all, and then everything becomes a dead-rubber. If Perez thinks people are bored with matches at the moment, wait until you have three-quarters of teams in this mini league with nothing to play for.

 

Not just if you lose them all, but you'll have teams racing ahead and qualifying for the knockouts and, as much as they might try to big it up, no-one is going to give a shit who 'wins' each group of 10 in the same way no-one cares who wins the groups of 4 just who is going through.

 

I wonder how they plan on deciding the groups each year - will the permanent clubs always stay in the same group so they can ensure Real vs Barca happens at least twice a season (they are always in group A). Could it mean, if the clubs get chucked out of their domestic leagues, that Arsenal never play Spurs again unless they both qualify for the knockouts and get drawn together as they always in seperate groups.

 

If they randomise it they run the risk that Barca vs Real might not happen for years if they always end up in seperate groups and never draw each other.

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1 hour ago, Fry Crayola said:

The big clubs have no issues whatsoever about the new Champions League format. Guaranteed places? More games? Less chance of being eliminated? Ticks almost all the boxes.

 

They just don't get a big enough piece of the money pie for their liking.

 

Why would they want more games? Besides more match revenue. Managers of top clubs complain enough about the busy schedule as it is. What's the point of more games between top sides if the overplayed best players we want to see are injured and absent? 

 

There should be a decided maximum number of games a club and players can potentially play in a season. I thought we were at the limit already. I like the champions league as it is, the group stage, 2 leg knockout, that teams that finish 4th, 3rd in their league earn the chance. Only thing i don't like is the away goal rule. I know the arguments for it, i still don't think it's fair. Maybe a better compromise would be something like if it's a draw with one team having more away goals, extra time is played and if it's still a draw the team with more away goals wins. 

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49 minutes ago, Fry Crayola said:

Have there been any significant assenting voices other than the mouthpieces of the very clubs breaking away?

 

There's some American politics journalists (etc) who apparently felt compelled to have an opinion, and that to them it sounds like a league of the superest teams sounds great! This does stretch 'significant' too far, I know, sorry.

e.g:

 

that went well.

 

 

and then, aha.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Ork1927 said:

 

Not just if you lose them all, but you'll have teams racing ahead and qualifying for the knockouts and, as much as they might try to big it up, no-one is going to give a shit who 'wins' each group of 10 in the same way no-one cares who wins the groups of 4 just who is going through.

 

I wonder how they plan on deciding the groups each year - will the permanent clubs always stay in the same group so they can ensure Real vs Barca happens at least twice a season (they are always in group A). Could it mean, if the clubs get chucked out of their domestic leagues, that Arsenal never play Spurs again unless they both qualify for the knockouts and get drawn together as they always in seperate groups.

 

If they randomise it they run the risk that Barca vs Real might not happen for years if they always end up in seperate groups and never draw each other.

 

That's a very good point and show how they really have not thought this through. Perhaps a convoluted system of random combined with 'pairs'. So if Bar ca gets picked for League 1 then Real automatically comes along for the side too. 

 

As a casual football fan, I am not automatically opposed to new leagues or ideas, I just really can't stand the closed shop idea and without the possibility of relegation and new teams coming in the whole competition aspect just seems a bit of a shoulder shrug. 

 

I'd be openminded to a new Europe super league where the top three teams of say England, Spain, Germany, Italy, and France play in instead of their national leagues. If you do well in the Premier League then the next year you wouldn't play in the Premier League you'd be playing in the Europe league. If you do badly in the Europe league you drop back down to your national league the following year. Of course, even as I write this some obvious issues present themselves - what happens if the bottom three teams in the Europe league are the three French teams, does that mean the Premier League winner doesn't get promoted? 

 

I just think they have miscalculated over the closed shop approach. Very few people think Uefa or Fifa are bastions of morals, most of us probably think they are pretty corrupt organisations in any event. So a new format which bypasses them is not automatically bad in my book but no one was ever going to support the closed shop principle. I've also no idea how these 5 bonus teams will work or be selected. And what happens if one of the bonus teams wins, do they still get dropped for the next year anyway? 

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