Football Thread 2020/2021

[Fry Crayola]

1 hour ago, kensei said:

All it would take is a CL spot and it'd instantly be an important competition. 

 

I used to think so, but then I took another look at the actual results. Most teams who won it in the last ten years already finished in a CL spot. The big teams routinely get to the latter stages. When Man Utd and Arsenal both won it while finishing 5th, it showed that the effort in chasing the last remaining CL place didn't sufficiently reduce the cup's importance to them.

 

I fear that granting a CL spot would change very little. Big teams already prioritise qualification through the league so would continue to field squad players in the earlier rounds. Teams on the fringes of Europa League qualification might also consider the FA Cup. Teams fighting relegation will continue to do so because again, the money from the Premier League dwarfs that of the Champions League and they know they'll only compete there for a season.

 

There may be some knock on effect of having only three places in via the league rather than four, but I'm no longer convinced it'll be strong enough. All said though, I think giving CL places to the cup winners is still a better idea than giving it to teams who were fourth best in the league from a pure rewards perspective.

[kensei]

I disagree. The main issue with the FA Cup isn't so much the top teams - they've squads to win it anyway, and any properly bug club is serious about winning things. The issue is from the top 6 down, the Premier League clubs are preferring finishing 14th in the Premiership to actual glory. 

 

It's money, as usual. A CL spot presents a potential huge amount of money in itself, but it also means the competition itself can generate more cash. Reinstate replays and make it a properly difficult competition to win and market it accordingly. 

 

21 minutes ago, Rsdio said:

What does that even mean, though? Does it really 'deserve' it less than finishing fourth? Basically any place not handed out to the actual champions is arbitrary.

 

If it's about prestige and/or clubs taking it seriously it seems like a circular argument.

 

It's nothing to do with "deserving it". Having only three CL spots in the league makes it harder for the top teams to ring fence things. That's it, and that's all of it. 

[Smoothy]

20 hours ago, Gotters said:

but it needs to evolve to survive - every year they trot out ronnie radford highlights for round 3 when the reality now is PL teams playing their second strings and even championship teams taking the opportunity to rest players as promotion matters more, played out in half full grounds

 

if the ‘point’ is financial distribution I’d rather that was handled better thru other mechanisms than getting a lucky draw once every few years

 

in it current form the FA cup is dying a slow death of fan and club disinterest, but I believe it could be given a new lease of life with some bolder moves

 

the champions league is a different thing where the structure is driven to keep the elite teams in it and apart til the latter stages every year, what’s that got to do with the fa cup ?

 

Can't do midweek, that's exclusively for UEFA (I'm not joking either).  One offs fine, but UEFA apparently takes a very dim view of regular games on the same day as their competitions, to the point that there may be a clash next year when some of the matchweek games for the Premier League are played midweek at the same time as some Champions League games.

[Plissken]

2 hours ago, kensei said:

It's nothing to do with "deserving it". Having only three CL spots in the league makes it harder for the top teams to ring fence things. That's it, and that's all of it. 

 

The CL places are in the gift of the Premier League and not the FA, so it's never going to happen.

[Naysonymous]

2 hours ago, Rsdio said:

What does that even mean, though? Does it really 'deserve' it less than finishing fourth? Basically any place not handed out to the actual champions is arbitrary.

 

If it's about prestige and/or clubs taking it seriously it seems like a circular argument.

 

 

The Premier League is a breakaway organisation from the FA.  They aren't going to give one of their Champions League places to the FA just to beef up a competition that they don't administer and don't give a shit about.  

 

The FA Cup is what it is.  People my age and older, basically those of us who clearly remember football before the year it was invented (1992) or the year it boomed (1996) get all misty eyed about the FA Cup.  Cup final day was a big deal because it was one of the few times a year you'd get to see football on TV, the only way to recapture that magic is to scrap all other football coverage and only show the cup final. That ain't gonna happen so the FA Cup is destined to play second fiddle to the Premier League and Champions League.  The people who bemoan the loss of the magic of the cup are for the most part in their 40s or older, so they'll either get over it, lose interest in football or die and the "how do we save the FA Cup?" hand-wringing debates will just fade away.

[kensei]

20 minutes ago, Plissken said:

 

The CL places are in the gift of the Premier League and not the FA, so it's never going to happen.

 

Oh I know. I'm just saying it'd fix it. 

 

UEFA could also fix it by refashionkng European football to not concentrate on an ever smaller elite, but that's not going to happen either. 

[kensei]

The Premier League is a breakaway organisation from the Football League, not the FA. I believe the FA had to bless it at the time, which they did because they wanted to weaken the football league and strengthen the English National Team. 

 

How'd that one work out? 

[Art Vandelay]

It makes me a small man indeed, but nothing pleases me more than when someone like Moyes fields a starting XI of kids, ball boys and the groundsman in the cup to save their legs for an upcoming league game and they get knocked out and subsequently slump to a dismal 3-0 home loss to Brighton.

[Plissken]

9 minutes ago, kensei said:

The Premier League is a breakaway organisation from the Football League, not the FA. I believe the FA had to bless it at the time, which they did because they wanted to weaken the football league and strengthen the English National Team. 

 

How'd that one work out? 

They left the FA behind a few years later, too.

[Rsdio]

I think everyone here knows it's in the hands of the Premier League and it's more a thought experiment than anything else.

 

I'm not even sure if I'd be in favour of it myself these days, I just found the notion of it not being deserving a bit weird as far as arguments against go. I tend to agree with most of Fry Crayola's points that it probably wouldn't be a night and day impact but at the same time I don't think three places for the Premier League would alter things a great deal there so the benefits (however small) might outweigh the drawbacks for me. More than likely it'd end up with the same teams qualifying a lot of the time but at least more clubs would have a realistic hope that a freak year could have a transformational effect.

[Fry Crayola]

3 hours ago, kensei said:

It's money, as usual. A CL spot presents a potential huge amount of money in itself

 

I would doubt that CL participation is enough to offset the threat of relegation.

 

Participation in the Premier League is worth at least £100m, based on last season's payments. Playing in the CL nets you around £15m at least for participation in the group stage, and up to around £80m if you win the tournament. A Premier League club could reasonably expect a return of £25-£30m from the CL.

 

Those figures mean any club currently shunning the FA Cup to preserve league status is likely to do the same even with the carrot of CL participation on offer. The odds are against them winning the FA Cup in the first place, and the returns just aren't as good. Perhaps it's the teams currently safe from relegation but for whom the Europa League is a realistic target who might turn their heads, but I wouldn't call a plum cup for a 7th placed team a rejuvenated prestige tournament.

[Naysonymous]

I love a good Twitter stat: 

 

 

[Naysonymous]

4-1 to Bayern after half an hour and the score line flatters Barcelona.  This is an absolute annihilation.  

[Gotters]

2 minutes ago, Naysonymous said:

4-1 to Bayern after half an hour and the score line flatters Barcelona.  This is an absolute annihilation.  

wrong season thread - keep up

[Naysonymous]

Facepalm.jpg

 

 

[wev]

Season 2 of Mundials "Giant" podcast has started back up on Spotify with "The Ballad of Alan Shearer"

 

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2WsehiFabaA0XDxhVmAoOQ?si=Ax0H-uHnQnmRSK4md6686A

[Plissken]

Premier League dates confirmed.

 

Start 12th September

Finished 23rd May

Christmas fixtures: Sat 19th Dec, Sat 26th Dec Mon 28th Dec, Sat 2nd Jan

 

Looks like there is a "split" round - Wed 13th Jan and Weds 20th Jan.  Guessing that is the winter break.

 

Means FA Cup Round 3 is Sat 9th Jan.

 

Fixtures out no later that Friday 21st August.

[Waggo]

Not liking the suggestion that Bielsa would be an ideal fit for Barca.

[JamesTW]

He s a good manager, I looked up his career though and he hasn't really done that much, just a bit surprised as he is pretty revered 

[Plissken]

Bielsa's game is based around high pressing and lots of running.  Given the age of the current Barcelona squad, he'd would have killed them by October.

 

No manager can fix the problems they have there.  The entire squad needs a complete overhaul.

[neoELITE]

They need to offload Messi and Biscuits. They won't though as Messi seems to run the club.

[Liamness]

I don't think any club would be improved by losing Messi. Yes it is not great to have a player influencing the running of the club, but the problems run a lot deeper surely. In the past six years or so I think you can count the good signings they've made on one hand, and there is no clear plan emerging from the coaching appointments they've made either.

 

I wonder where the hell he would go if he did leave. Part of me thinks he threatens to leave in order to get the club to do what he wants, and will never actually do it, though. I can't picture him at any other club.

[JamesTW]

Go to a team like AC Milan, try and ‘do a Maradona’, might be a bit late now though

[feltmonkey]

He'll stay at Barcelona.  However, between now and him signing a new contract (after Xavi is installed as manager) he will lead Man Utd chief executive Ed Woodward a merry dance.  Trying in vain to sign Messi and allowing that to sabotage the rest of the required transfer window business would be the most late-period Man Utd thing ever.

[Plissken]

10 hours ago, Liamness said:

Yes it is not great to have a player influencing the running of the club, but the problems run a lot deeper surely. In the past six years or so I think you can count the good signings they've made on one hand, and there is no clear plan emerging from the coaching appointments they've made either.

 

I don't think that it is Messi's fault that he has so much influence in the club, or at least he doesn't strike me as someone who wants to be involved in the politics.  I think that he has ended up in that situation by default simply because the directors have has relied on him to do everything except work in the club shop.

 

It seems that everyone acknowledges that Barca are where they are despite Messi, not because of him.

[Naysonymous]

2 hours ago, feltmonkey said:

He'll stay at Barcelona.  However, between now and him signing a new contract (after Xavi is installed as manager) he will lead Man Utd chief executive Ed Woodward a merry dance.  Trying in vain to sign Messi and allowing that to sabotage the rest of the required transfer window business would be the most late-period Man Utd thing ever.

 

Xavi would be a fool to take the job at this point.   Barcelona are guilty of wasting the Neymar money on poor signings, but this ultimately means that most of their key players all got old together. Messi is 33, Suarez is 33, Pique is 33, Vidal is 33, Rakitic is 32, Busquets is 32, Alba is 31. Even the "new guy" up front Antoine Griezmann is 29. It's dads army whenever they take the pitch.  

It was poor management a few years ago when, from the outside looking in at least, they seemed reluctant to bring in younger players because those younger players weren't as good as the senior players in the first team but sometimes you've got to take the short term hit to refresh the squad, or you'll end up in a situation where everybody has got to be replaced at the same time.

Nobody wants to be the manager who has to get rid of all these ageing but incredibly popular footballers, especially when the budget to do it properly doesn't appear to be there.   It's like following Alex Ferguson, there is just too much to lose.  I wouldn't be surprised if they have another season or two with mangers who are below the quality of candidate who they need because none of the truly elite managers want to be the guy who makes the decisions to break that team up. 

[Plissken]

I think that they also - ironically enough - ended up going down the Real Madrid "galactico" route with Coutinho and Griezmann.  Started getting high on their own supply - mes que un club, my arse.

[Plissken]

In "this is how the football press works" type news, there is currently a host of stories about the latest offer for Newcastle, from the Singapore based Bellagraph Nova Group.  The £280m bid comes from a company which boasted $12bn in revenues and says it employs 23,000 people.  

 

Note the use of the words "boasted" and "says it".  Here are two pictures supplied by BN to show that they are real players.

 

 

 

 

Newcastle not being bought by the Saudis but by Bellagraph Nova.  BN, you say... 

[Stoppy2000]

17 minutes ago, Plissken said:

In "this is how the football press works" type news, there is currently a host of stories about the latest offer for Newcastle, from the Singapore based Bellagraph Nova Group.  The £280m bid comes from a company which boasted $12bn in revenues and says it employs 23,000 people.  

 

Note the use of the words "boasted" and "says it".  Here are two pictures supplied by BN to show that they are real players.

 

 

 

 

Newcastle not being bought by the Saudis but by Bellagraph Nova.  BN, you say... 

Who are they then? Jokers or are they chancers? 

[Plissken]

I'm leaning towards the latter.