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1 minute ago, Ry said:

 

See this confuses me. They say they are bringing out an upgraded version at launch but the true series X upgrade won't be available until next year. 

 

I'm not sure I can hang off until next year :)

It will be probably just be performance enhanced but an actual patch with proper next generation features later on. 

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I will most likely get a new Xbox console this year but I have no idea when or what. 4k doesn't really work for me as I don't have a 4k monitor in my office and don't plan to any time soon due to the proximity of the screen to where I sit. Therefore an all digital, cheaper model would work for me as long as frame rates are 60+. However, if I can trade off the 4k for frames on the higher spec model, I'd definitely take that option.

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Has much been said about Spencer using the phrase "most consistently powerful next-generation console" instead of simply calling the Series X the most powerful as they have been doing up to now? 

 

I understand that we know the peak of the PS5s GPU and CPU performance but we don't know how that translates to real world performance. It can hit 10.3 Teraflops but we don't know how fast the CPU can run in that scenario. With the Xbox Microsoft are saying the GPU  can run at 12 teraflops while the CPU is running at 3.6Ghz. 

 

I just wonder if that's leading to noticeably better performance in some third party games and MS are trying to lean into that more. 

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37 minutes ago, Ry said:

 

See this confuses me. They say they are bringing out an upgraded version at launch but the true series X upgrade won't be available until next year. 

 

I'm not sure I can hang off until next year :)

 

Won't the upgrade just be the Xbox One version with a Series X patch?

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30 minutes ago, bear said:

Has much been said about Spencer using the phrase "most consistently powerful next-generation console" instead of simply calling the Series X the most powerful as they have been doing up to now? 


maybe he just meant most powerful “two in a row“ consistency?

 

likewise Sony could say their consoles are consistently “most popular”, or whatever?

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29 minutes ago, bear said:

Has much been said about Spencer using the phrase "most consistently powerful next-generation console" instead of simply calling the Series X the most powerful as they have been doing up to now? 

 

I understand that we know the peak of the PS5s GPU and CPU performance but we don't know how that translates to real world performance. It can hit 10.3 Teraflops but we don't know how fast the CPU can run in that scenario. With the Xbox Microsoft are saying the GPU  can run at 12 teraflops while the CPU is running at 3.6Ghz. 

 

I just wonder if that's leading to noticeably better performance in some third party games and MS are trying to lean into that more. 

 

giphy.gif

 

MS are such slippery fuckers, it could mean anything and nothing. They make it really hard to buy into their vision when it all feels like it's almost designed to trick you. There's always something insincere, manipulative and cynical about their delivery that just doesn't sit right with me.

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46 minutes ago, Ry said:

 

See this confuses me. They say they are bringing out an upgraded version at launch but the true series X upgrade won't be available until next year. 

 

I'm not sure I can hang off until next year :)

 

At a guess, runs in 4k and/or a higher frame-rate at launch. Then later on they'll look into adding higher crowd densities and other features that would previously have been PC-only.

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34 minutes ago, bear said:

Has much been said about Spencer using the phrase "most consistently powerful next-generation console" instead of simply calling the Series X the most powerful as they have been doing up to now? 

 

I understand that we know the peak of the PS5s GPU and CPU performance but we don't know how that translates to real world performance. It can hit 10.3 Teraflops but we don't know how fast the CPU can run in that scenario. With the Xbox Microsoft are saying the GPU  can run at 12 teraflops while the CPU is running at 3.6Ghz. 

 

I just wonder if that's leading to noticeably better performance in some third party games and MS are trying to lean into that more. 


Mark Cerny said that they expect both the CPU and GPU to be running at their highest boost under almost all conditions, unless a game is making the console run in to its heat budget - and under those conditions they expect the developer will prefer to fix the heat problem rather than deal with a few percent lost performance.

 

That really was a weird thing for MS to say though, with the caveat “consistently” in the middle instead of just “most powerful”. They could’ve simply said that instead. You could read that two ways:

 

There are situations in which the Series X isn’t the most powerful, although it has consistency in its favour.

 

They just want to plant a seed of doubt about how the PS5 performs; it doesn’t actually tell us anything about the Series X.

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3 minutes ago, Uncle Nasty said:

 

giphy.gif

 

MS are such slippery fuckers, it could mean anything and nothing. They make it really hard to buy into their vision when it all feels like it's almost designed to trick you. There's always something insincere, manipulative and cynical about their delivery that just doesn't sit right with me.

Yet Microsoft are the only one to have been completely upfront about their strategy for the machine (BC and updates to existing games for example) whilst Sony have told us pretty much fuck all.

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Just now, layten said:

Yet Microsoft are the only one to have been completely upfront about their strategy for the machine (BC and updates to existing games for example) whilst Sony have told us pretty much fuck all.

 

Can't be accused of manipulative messaging if you're not telling people anything at all 

highresrollsafe.jpg

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5 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

There are situations in which the Series X isn’t the most powerful, although it has consistency in its favour.

 

There will certainly be some use cases for the SSD where this might be the case. I'm also not sure that I/O throughput has been identified as anything but "burst" for either of them.

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7 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

Mark Cerny said that they expect both the CPU and GPU to be running at their highest boost under almost all conditions, unless a game is making the console run in to its heat budget - and under those conditions they expect the developer will prefer to fix the heat problem rather than deal with a few percent lost performance.

 

I don't understand this. Surely the only way to "fix the heat problem" is to reduce load (either through optimisation or decreasing "graphics". That means reducing load on the CPU or GPU. Which is "lost performance". Basically if I ask the machine to run at max it will throttle due to thermal limitations.

 

This would imply to me that Cerny is saying the system is thermally limited when pushed to it's limits and it will throttle itself. Therefore game developers cannot push the system to 100% for prolonged periods.

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3 minutes ago, footle said:

 

There will certainly be some use cases for the SSD where this might be the case. I'm also not sure that I/O throughput has been identified as anything but "burst" for either of them.


Do we really think that Microsoft think this though? Especially at this stage when games are very likely to be more traditionally designed, not using the storage optimisations for UE5 rendering, not adapting to Sony’s batshit “maximum pixels per joule” approach to boosts.
 

I can’t see Microsoft looking at anything Sony have and thinking “well, they’re going to beat us in load times, better slip a caveat in there”.

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1 minute ago, Alex W. said:


Do we really think that Microsoft think this though? Especially at this stage when games are very likely to be more traditionally designed, not using the storage optimisations for UE5 rendering, not adapting to Sony’s batshit “maximum pixels per joule” approach to boosts.
 

I can’t see Microsoft looking at anything Sony have and thinking “well, they’re going to beat us in load times, better slip a caveat in there”.


Perhaps there’s also a load of rendering scenarios that scale better with frequency than wide. Not convinced though: it’ll be interesting to see)

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2 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

 

I don't understand this. Surely the only way to "fix the heat problem" is to reduce load (either through optimisation or decreasing "graphics". That means reducing load on the CPU or GPU. Which is "lost performance". Basically if I ask the machine to run at max it will throttle due to thermal limitations.

 

This would imply to me that Cerny is saying the system is thermally limited when pushed to it's limits and it will throttle itself. Therefore game developers cannot push the system to 100% for prolonged periods.


So this took me a long time to figure out, but a chip’s heat production isn’t just a function of voltage and frequency, but also of the actual operations being done. Some trivial operations that don’t do much for how the game looks, like drawing menu screens, can have a bad impact on heat, and some operations that have an enormous impact on the game’s appearance might actually not require much electrical power at all.

 

The way consoles have dealt with this in the past is just to put in a bigger PSU than you probably need and crank the fan to whatever level is needed to get rid of the heat the real code is actually producing.
 

On PS5 instead they basically put a power/heat cap on there and any time the code is running under that cap they boost the CPU and GPU until it reaches the limit. For most games apparently that will be the full boost. For some code you won’t have as much thermal head room so they don’t get the full boost. On Sony’s side what happens is you get a smaller boost. So that code doesn’t perform as well. The developers can see that immediately during development apparently and they can live with that or write code that uses the chip in a more thermally efficient way.
 

The PS5 is a machine for consistently turning a joule of energy in to as many graphics as possible which is just a weird idea.

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2 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

The PS5 is a machine for consistently turning a joule of energy in to as many graphics as possible which is just a weird idea.

 

It's a machine for not idling: everyone wants an 800fps pixel art menu screen?

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1 hour ago, Ry said:

 

See this confuses me. They say they are bringing out an upgraded version at launch but the true series X upgrade won't be available until next year.

First I've heard of an upgraded version at Series X launch!

 

I thought the upgraded Series X version would be free but come sometime after the launch?

 

EDIT:

 

Quote

That's according to CD Projekt, the parent company of Cyberpunk 2077 developer CD Projekt Red, which suggested during a recent earnings call (via VGC) that, while the game will still release in September and will be available on Xbox Series X "from the get-go", an enhanced, next-gen version will be released at a later date.

“In terms of Microsoft’s console, like I said, we have officially confirmed both the update and the cross-gen availability, meaning that you’ll be able to play the game from the get-go on the next-gen,” CD Projekt SVP of business development Michal Nowakowski said during the call.

“However, when it comes to a proper, full-blown next-gen version, that’s going to come later, we haven’t announced when and I don’t have a new comment here on that."

 

https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/ps5-and-xbox-series-x-set-to-get-full-blown-next-gen-cyberpunk-2077-but-not-at-launch

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13 minutes ago, footle said:

 

It's a machine for not idling: everyone wants an 800fps pixel art menu screen?


I think they already talked about that as a trivial case where the console’s not actually going do be doing any meaningful work or producing any meaningful heat.

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57 minutes ago, Alex W. said:


So this took me a long time to figure out, but a chip’s heat production isn’t just a function of voltage and frequency, but also of the actual operations being done. Some trivial operations that don’t do much for how the game looks, like drawing menu screens, can have a bad impact on heat, and some operations that have an enormous impact on the game’s appearance might actually not require much electrical power at all.

 

The way consoles have dealt with this in the past is just to put in a bigger PSU than you probably need and crank the fan to whatever level is needed to get rid of the heat the real code is actually producing.
 

On PS5 instead they basically put a power/heat cap on there and any time the code is running under that cap they boost the CPU and GPU until it reaches the limit. For most games apparently that will be the full boost. For some code you won’t have as much thermal head room so they don’t get the full boost. On Sony’s side what happens is you get a smaller boost. So that code doesn’t perform as well. The developers can see that immediately during development apparently and they can live with that or write code that uses the chip in a more thermally efficient way.
 

The PS5 is a machine for consistently turning a joule of energy in to as many graphics as possible which is just a weird idea.

 

I don't see this as anything other than saying the system isn't equipped with enough cooling or power to handle the capabilities of it's CPU and GPU and must therefore throttle. All the rest is saying is that they'd prefer developers to identify these cases and change their code to avoid hitting the limit than the user experiencing degraded performance because the scale of the impact will be unknown.

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1 hour ago, Alex W. said:


Mark Cerny said that they expect both the CPU and GPU to be running at their highest boost under almost all conditions, unless a game is making the console run in to its heat budget - and under those conditions they expect the developer will prefer to fix the heat problem rather than deal with a few percent lost performance.

 

That really was a weird thing for MS to say though, with the caveat “consistently” in the middle instead of just “most powerful”. They could’ve simply said that instead. You could read that two ways:

 

There are situations in which the Series X isn’t the most powerful, although it has consistency in its favour.

 

They just want to plant a seed of doubt about how the PS5 performs; it doesn’t actually tell us anything about the Series X.

I'll have to watch that PS5 specs reveal again but that wasn't the impression I was left with. To me at least, Cernys explanation made it seem like the overall amount of heat the chip can output is capped/fixed but the split between GPU and CPU is something that can vary. It didn't seem like they could run the CPU and GPU side flat out simultaneously and the length of time they focused on explaining that would seem to back up my interpretation. Afterall if they can run both flat out why not not just say that like MS are saying with the Series X? It came across as the one segment of the presentation where they were trying to fudge things a bit so they could push a slightly bigger number instead of likely real world performance. 

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1 hour ago, RubberJohnny said:

I just thought the "consistently" line was a dig at Sony, I think people are overthinking it.

It just seemed an odd dig. "The most powerful console" line they've been pushing since they announced the thing seems like a better line so I was curious about why they might have changed things slightly. 

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2 hours ago, Ry said:

 

See this confuses me. They say they are bringing out an upgraded version at launch but the true series X upgrade won't be available until next year. 

 

I'm not sure I can hang off until next year :)

This is the reason why I am not buying the SEX box (as Boozy calls it lol) at launch.  I am really looking forward to Cyberpunk and seeing as it will not have any real upgrade at launch and guessing 19 Nov will be pretty close to SEX box launch, I'll just play the campaign on my One X.  When I'm finished which no doubt will take me a while, then I will think about moving up.

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Their official line on the matter is:

 

Quote

There's enough power that both CPU and GPU can potentially run at their limits of 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz, it isn't the case that the developer has to choose to run one of them slower.


It really has more to do with the console’s thermal envelope, cooling and noise than variations in performance.

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Actually I’m not sure that answers anything?
 

It occurs to me that there is probably an unstated assumption that this will matter for games now. But I suspect that it won’t? People weren’t using the PS4 in a way that made it sound like a jet engine until it had been around for about 5 years, mostly.

 

It’s a weird and confusing and counterintuitive thing for Sony have stressed so much so I could have completely the wrong end of the stick.

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Just now, Alex W. said:

Actually I’m not sure that answers anything?
 

It occurs to me that there is probably an unstated assumption that this will matter for games now. But I suspect that it won’t? People weren’t using the PS4 in a way that made it sound like a jet engine until it had been around for about 5 years, mostly.

 

It’s a weird and confusing and counterintuitive thing for Sony have stressed so much so I could have completely the wrong end of the stick.


they have designed a console that looks like a weird wind tunnel, so there’s got to be a reason for it.

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1 hour ago, Alex W. said:


So this took me a long time to figure out, but a chip’s heat production isn’t just a function of voltage and frequency, but also of the actual operations being done. Some trivial operations that don’t do much for how the game looks, like drawing menu screens, can have a bad impact on heat, and some operations that have an enormous impact on the game’s appearance might actually not require much electrical power at all.

 

The way consoles have dealt with this in the past is just to put in a bigger PSU than you probably need and crank the fan to whatever level is needed to get rid of the heat the real code is actually producing.
 

On PS5 instead they basically put a power/heat cap on there and any time the code is running under that cap they boost the CPU and GPU until it reaches the limit. For most games apparently that will be the full boost. For some code you won’t have as much thermal head room so they don’t get the full boost. On Sony’s side what happens is you get a smaller boost. So that code doesn’t perform as well. The developers can see that immediately during development apparently and they can live with that or write code that uses the chip in a more thermally efficient way.
 

The PS5 is a machine for consistently turning a joule of energy in to as many graphics as possible which is just a weird idea.

 

I wonder if that means as your PS5 gets more dusty/older and more prone to heat issues that performance degrades?  Probably not. I guess they only care about the cpu/gpu temp rather what going on in the case.

 

 

edit: Dammit:  @thesnwmn

 

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