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Xbox Series X | S


djbhammer
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1 hour ago, Alex W. said:


Mark Cerny said that they expect both the CPU and GPU to be running at their highest boost under almost all conditions, unless a game is making the console run in to its heat budget - and under those conditions they expect the developer will prefer to fix the heat problem rather than deal with a few percent lost performance.

 

That really was a weird thing for MS to say though, with the caveat “consistently” in the middle instead of just “most powerful”. They could’ve simply said that instead. You could read that two ways:

 

There are situations in which the Series X isn’t the most powerful, although it has consistency in its favour.

 

They just want to plant a seed of doubt about how the PS5 performs; it doesn’t actually tell us anything about the Series X.

Could it also be because MS themselves also have another next gen console they have yet to unveil, the Series S, and don’t want to undermine that entirely by overselling the Series X? 

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Just now, rafaqat said:

 

I wonder if that means as your PS5 gets more dusty/older and more prone to heat issues that performance degrades?  Probably not. I guess they only care about the cpu/gpu temp rather what going on in the case.

 

Those things directly impact cooling performance and your CPU/GPU term. So yes, if it's not got cooling headroom on day one it strikes me that it'll only get worse over time.

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Just now, thesnwmn said:

I think the worrying thing if they're saying off the bat that it's thermally limited (and believe it can be coded around) is what will happen in a 3 year old system full of dust and with aging thermal paste.


The cooler’s still going to be variable speed, so it would just run faster. There’d be little difference between shifting 200W out of a dusty PS5 in a cold room and shifting 200W out of a clean one in a hot room.

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Just now, Alex W. said:


The cooler’s still going to be variable speed, so it would just run faster. There’d be little difference between shifting 200W out of a dusty PS5 in a cold room and shifting 200W out of a clean one in a hot room.

 

So... back to... what the fuck are they talking about? If it can always "just run faster" and can cool anything at any point in the future, why is a developer giving a fuck about anything other than whether the system running at max boost can run fast enough to do what they want?

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2 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

 

So... back to... what the fuck are they talking about? If it can always "just run faster" and can cool anything at any point in the future, why is a developer giving a fuck about anything other than whether the system running at max boost can run fast enough to do what they want?


Because being able to ditch 200 W of heat (or however much it is) in a hot room is a different problem from trying to pull 260 W of power from a 250 W PSU?

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Oh sorry, I see what you mean. I don't think they're power limited (if they've said both CPU and GPU can run at the same time). It sounds more like thermal limiting to me is what I'm saying and over time that's just going to get worse. It's all speculation anyway and honestly I'd be surprised if they really are limited like this but I don't have another explanation for what Cerny is on about.

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Basically the cooler and PSU on your current console have a bunch of head room to allow for hypothetical dodgy games in the future to still get enough power to run, and for the console to ditch that heat. And most of the time and for most games all that expensive cooling and power hardware is just not doing anything. Sony have decided that instead they’ll put in the PSU and cooler that makes sense to them and have the chips just not go above that.

 

I don’t know why they’re making such a big deal out of it because if anyone notices they’ve done that in any way except for “wow, this is a smaller, quieter, cooler console than expected” then they’ve fucked it.

 

The size of the console is not a good omen but maybe it is really quiet.

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Just now, Stanley said:

So in layman’s terms the PS5 is using way too much power all the time, so not environmentally friendly, and might catch fire on the Horizon Zero Dawn map screen :unsure:


The opposite, the PS5 has a strict power limit applied to everything. Games physically cannot use more electrical power than Sony have prescribed. I think what would actually happen is that the map screen would just run really badly, rather than really loudly.
 

Which I guess is a good idea but also a crazy thing to make in to one of the three pillars of your GDC presentation?

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10 minutes ago, Alex W. said:


The opposite, the PS5 has a strict power limit applied to everything. Games physically cannot use more electrical power than Sony have prescribed. I think what would actually happen is that the map screen would just run really badly, rather than really loudly.
 

Which I guess is a good idea but also a crazy thing to make in to one of the three pillars of your GDC presentation?

I guess when they were designing the thing they eventually reached a point where they said the only way they could make it more powerful but still manage to cool it was to put in a big fan powerful enough to take the hand off a small child, which would just be crazy right? 

 

And then Microsoft showed off the Series X....

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Just to revisit something, it’s not wrong to say that the PS5 is thermally and electrically performance limited. That’s literally what they’ve imposed. But it’s very clearly a conscious decision to design it that way, with one of the PS4’s biggest user bugbears in mind. It’s not a case of them cramming too much hot hardware in to a box that’s not got the power and cooling to handle it, given that it’s been balanced to - apparently - run at full performance almost all of the time anyway. It’s more a question of what the console does when it’s being pushed in weird ways: run hotter and louder than the designers intended, or stamp its feet and refuse to cooperate.

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4 minutes ago, bear said:

I guess when they were designing the thing they eventually reached a point where they said the only way they could make it more powerful but still manage to cool it was to put in a big fan powerful enough to take the hand off a small child, which would just be crazy right? 

 

And then Microsoft showed off the Series X....


I dunno, I’m not convinced the PS5 is going to have all that crazy a cooler or PSU in it. The Series X has like a 315 W PSU in there and it’s about 50% holes; by contrast the PS5 case has some fairly big but obscured vents around the top corner. Even if the back is mostly vent it doesn’t look like a case that’s designed to dissipate radically more heat than the competition. 

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https://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-really-doesnt-care-if-you-buy-an-xbox-series-x-heres-why

 

Great summary of why MS don't care if you buy a Series X or not. :) Agree completely.

 

Sure first party AAA games maybe hampered a little to allow them to run on older hardware but they can. And they are enhanced for you if you do buy the new console.

 

It's a bold direction for MS as they are effectively redefining how the games console market traditionally works. Personally I am all for it. 

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3 hours ago, bear said:

Has much been said about Spencer using the phrase "most consistently powerful next-generation console" instead of simply calling the Series X the most powerful as they have been doing up to now? 


No, but I understand the games showcase had the highest audience share at that time of day in the Norfolk area. 

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16 minutes ago, MattyP said:

https://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-really-doesnt-care-if-you-buy-an-xbox-series-x-heres-why

 

Great summary of why MS don't care if you buy a Series X or not. :) Agree completely.

 

Sure first party AAA games maybe hampered a little to allow them to run on older hardware but they can. And they are enhanced for you if you do buy the new console.

 

It's a bold direction for MS as they are effectively redefining how the games console market traditionally works. Personally I am all for it. 

 

This has always been the case and Gamepass is finally helping realise MS's vision (from Gate's originally) of getting (their software) into the living room which got the OG xbox off the ground. The hardware has always been the trojan horse to do it.

 

Thing is - they competed like a normal console manufacturer for so long but gamepass is finally the escape route back the original vision of delivering a service/software - not necessarily hardware and then software to feed the success of that hardware in a closed eco system. 

 

Here is an example - lets so hypothetically Series X sales are not that impressive and people take that as thinking "Xbox/MS" are failing the generation already.

 

Look at this;

 

https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/surface

 

It would be like saying well Surfaces don't sell that well in comparison to Macbooks so MS is failing. MS are just big enough to make hardware for Windows - but they are a Windows company. Xbox don't want to be a console company - they want to be a Netflix in delivering content as far reaching as possible in the same way Windows/Office is not tied to MS Surface devices in their success. Surface devices are just a nice way to use windows software.

 

It's why as long as I have a PC - I will never buy an xbox but it does't matter because I have 3 years of gamepass and will continue to use it. I just see Series S/X etc as MS's Surface of the console world - it is nowhere near their main focus. They'll keep making hardware as a showcase of what their software can run on and for ease of consumers but they genuinely don't care about the success of the hardware in the same way Sony or Nintendo will.

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On 23/07/2020 at 19:01, Revival said:

New trailer for the Falconeer

 

 

 

Crimson Skies style open world game with more than a touch of Panzer Dragoon's aesthetic..?

Definitely interested! 

 

They should have shown both this and Echo Generation off properly with their dull trailers at the showcase, not just a few moments in the ID@ montage or preshow.. 

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But if in three years Sony have 'won' the console war and MS' Xbox Series whatever install base is fuck all what are people paying to play Game Pass stuff on?

 

I think it's a bold bet and I think their messaging is stuck between committing to this and competing with Sony in the classical manor. Personally I think they're a couple of years too early for this switch of approach. Once xcloud is up and running, available on smart TVs and basically and TV stick and tablet then maybe.

 

For this to work MS need to sell more people an Xbox of some form to increase the userbase. And right now, I think that's a challenge. Why haven't those without an Xbox already not bought one yet? The value proposition hasn't changed other than that there's a new generation of hardware now.

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12 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

But if in three years Sony have 'won' the console war and MS' Xbox Series whatever install base is fuck all what are people paying to play Game Pass stuff on?

 

Any device they want, is the idea. Probably not a Playstation though.

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Keeping the One S around might be an attractive prospect for some too, assuming it gets a price cut. It would be a cheap console that still plays new games, presumably runs xcloud and throws in a 4K Blu Ray player as a bonus. 

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18 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

But if in three years Sony have 'won' the console war and MS' Xbox Series whatever install base is fuck all what are people paying to play Game Pass stuff on?

 

I think it's a bold bet and I think their messaging is stuck between committing to this and competing with Sony in the classical manor. Personally I think they're a couple of years too early for this switch of approach. Once xcloud is up and running, available on smart TVs and basically and TV stick and tablet then maybe.

 

For this to work MS need to sell more people an Xbox of some form to increase the userbase. And right now, I think that's a challenge. Why haven't those without an Xbox already not bought one yet? The value proposition hasn't changed other than that there's a new generation of hardware now.

 

They have the Xbox One S/Xbox One X/PC and Xcloud userbase already outside of the new consoles for upcoming games for the foreseeable future. Sony just have the PS5 install base wise. 

 

Eventually they'll need Series X/S exclusive games - but that will be at the point where Series S/X userbase has been seeped high enough to dump the previous gen userbase behind and I am guessing the first party games will have a variety of ranges to support the widest range of hardware possible. Until then they will focus gamepass on being as wide as possible.

 

The largest number of X/S games that don't run on the original xbox one hardware will be from third parties because they'll be making more powerful games for the PS5/PC anyway once they leave PS4 behind so it is inevitable that the X will get the software it needs but MS are letting software lead - not hardware.

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To be honest the current gen of console hardware will probably be the last for me  I can see myself subscribing to GamePass going forward and just sticking with that. Not really interested in paying £50-60 for one exclusive game anymore. That is over a year of Gamepass on the PC (@£4). I always find something to play on there.

 

Sony will surprise with exclusives however TBH I only have so much time and money. Love the idea of xCloud too so I can have a quick play on something on the move if I want to. 

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23 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

But if in three years Sony have 'won' the console war and MS' Xbox Series whatever install base is fuck all what are people paying to play Game Pass stuff on?

 

I think it's a bold bet and I think their messaging is stuck between committing to this and competing with Sony in the classical manor. Personally I think they're a couple of years too early for this switch of approach. Once xcloud is up and running, available on smart TVs and basically and TV stick and tablet then maybe.

 

For this to work MS need to sell more people an Xbox of some form to increase the userbase. And right now, I think that's a challenge. Why haven't those without an Xbox already not bought one yet? The value proposition hasn't changed other than that there's a new generation of hardware now.

 

X Cloud let's you play any smart devices so I don't think we know exactly how it's going to pan out. It's not about console wars as such any more from Microsoft's perspective. MS and Sony are taking different paths in which they could both be successful. 

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I would imagine, if they could, MS would be offering the Gamepass app via as many devices as possible in the future, including PlayStation and Nintendo. It wasnt that far back that rumors about Gamepass on Switch were happening and it seemed real enough based on the good relationship between the two companies (Live integration in Minecraft Switch, Cuphead etc)

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1 hour ago, Uzi said:

 

It's why as long as I have a PC - I will never buy an xbox but it does't matter because I have 3 years of gamepass and will continue to use it. I just see Series S/X etc as MS's Surface of the console world - it is nowhere near their main focus. They'll keep making hardware as a showcase of what their software can run on and for ease of consumers but they genuinely don't care about the success of the hardware in the same way Sony or Nintendo will.

 

I suppose when you put it like that, the XSX basically is just a PC.

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3 minutes ago, Pob said:

 

I suppose when you put it like that, the XSX basically is just a PC.

 

Pretty much - it's like when Steam had steam machines (executed very badly in their case) - just branded bits of hardware that just primarily is focused to run nothing but their software and a simple traditional and transitional way for consumers to jump into and importantly get hooked into the ecosystem.

 

It's literally just a box - its probably why the latest design is so plain and simple.  It is just an ideal delivery mechanism. 

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1 hour ago, thesnwmn said:

But if in three years Sony have 'won' the console war and MS' Xbox Series whatever install base is fuck all what are people paying to play Game Pass stuff on?

 

I think it's a bold bet and I think their messaging is stuck between committing to this and competing with Sony in the classical manor. Personally I think they're a couple of years too early for this switch of approach. Once xcloud is up and running, available on smart TVs and basically and TV stick and tablet then maybe.

 

For this to work MS need to sell more people an Xbox of some form to increase the userbase. And right now, I think that's a challenge. Why haven't those without an Xbox already not bought one yet? The value proposition hasn't changed other than that there's a new generation of hardware now.

 

XCloud - Launching in September.    On Android and IOS.   Which means it shouldn't take very long to jump onto TV Stick.   Smart TV's can't be that far behind if MS decide to spend the time to develop the client for them.    By xmas you'll be able to play all GamePass games on your phone, tablets and PC's. On your TV too through TV sticks.   NO Xbox Needed unless you want to play 4K or just love the responsiveness and crispness of a locally running game.

 

There's also the fact that you can stream locally from one xbox in the house.  Can't wait to see what that's like too.

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