Hogwarts Legacy - Not as good as Dog Kid University

[Unofficial Who]

38 minutes ago, T Pot said:

He might be trolling, he might not be.

 

You don’t get to define what someone else sees as bullying.

 

Something that doesn’t bother you in the slightest could have someone else in absolute bits, stressing for days.

 

I think that's true.

 

But it's been frustrating seeing that when trans and nb posters or their allies express some concern or distress that many people seem to be fine with paying money for a product in which some of the money might be used to make their lives worse the reaction seems to be to secure their shit. Put up or shut up.

 

I mean I get it. It's not about equal rights, it's about competing rights. It's complicated. But the suggestion that "the real bullies" are the ones expressing their concern about the effects this has had on the trans community, a community that for some reasons has been scapegoated as enemy number one in the US is frustrating.

 

However I'm all about learning. @macosx and others. Can you identify the bullying in this thread and what can we do to lessen or mitigate that? (Feel free to continue this discussion in the A and F thread if that feels like the more appropriate space.) 

[Unofficial Who]

11 hours ago, NexivRed said:

It really stuck out.
 

Amidst the gritty, heartfelt essays people are sharing with us about trans issues, there’s the odd “I got to the bit where my wand did this!” until finally, someone says they’re tired of talking about it all. As they finish the game and move on. It just did me in. 

 

This was part of the reason I suggested spilt out discussion, to avoid the sort of cognitive whiplash caused by the overlapping issues surrounding the game and talk of the game itself.

[dreamylittledream]

Circles, in circles, in circles again...

[Danster]

I don't think it matters if we go round in circles. If the forum have had enough talking things through then the conversation will naturally come to an end.

 

While people still want to talk about it, the conversation will continue. Even if, you see it as treading over old ground. 

[Noopacity]

Trans people need and deserve protection.

 

I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others but are vulnerable.

 

I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them.

 

I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

[MK-1601]

17 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

However I'm all about learning. @macosx and others. Can you identify the bullying in this thread and what can we do to lessen or mitigate that? (Feel free to continue this discussion in the A and F thread if that feels like the more appropriate space.) 

"But what about the people making bad faith arguments, what more can we do to appease them?"

 

[Noopacity]

9 hours ago, Noopacity said:

Trans people need and deserve protection.

 

I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others but are vulnerable.

 

I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them.

 

I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

It's great to see so much support for things JK Rowling has actually said. 

[Festoon]

37 minutes ago, Noopacity said:

It's great to see so much support for things JK Rowling has actually said. 

 

The first statement is simply not supported by her actions. She has made the world more dangerous for trans people and she'd have to be a drooling idiot not to realise that. She pals around with people who question that trans people even really exist.

 

The second statement is weasel words of the highest order. Insert other words there instead of 'trans-identified' like 'gay', or 'black' and you'll see what a sneering, supercilious comment it is. No-one cares what she thinks, much less of her view of which individual constitutes 'the majority'.

 

Or course, anyone with half a brain can see she thinks the default is the negative.

 

Here's some more Rowling statements: https://www.vox.com/culture/23622610/jk-rowling-transphobic-statements-timeline-history-controversy

 

She's a horrendous sneaky scumbag.

[Mogster]

36 minutes ago, Noopacity said:

It's great to see so much support for things JK Rowling has actually said. 

Please could you explain what your point is here? 

 

If Rowling had made those statements regarding trans people, then said and done absolutely nothing else on the subject, nobody would have a problem with her. The wording may have sounded a bit dodgy, but people would probably have given her the benefit of the doubt. Obviously this hasn't been the case though.

[Festoon]

17 minutes ago, Mogster said:

Please could you explain what your point is here? 

 

If Rowling had made those statements regarding trans people, then said and done absolutely nothing else on the subject, nobody would have a problem with her. The wording may have sounded a bit dodgy, but people would probably have given her the benefit of the doubt. Obviously this hasn't been the case though.

 

I'm frankly baffled that Rowling defenders haven't read Rowling's essay - the one where she says the trans movement provides cover for predators.

[Exit Chamber]

11 hours ago, Noopacity said:

Trans people need and deserve protection.

 

I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others but are vulnerable.

 

I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them.

 

I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

 

1 hour ago, Noopacity said:

It's great to see so much support for things JK Rowling has actually said. 

 

What a bizarre attempt at a gotcha.

[Fry Crayola]

Shaggy said it wasn't him. Up yours, woke moralists!

[Darren]

3 hours ago, Noopacity said:

It's great to see so much support for things JK Rowling has actually said. 

It’s a pity that JK Rowling doesn’t support those things that JK Rowling has actually said.

[Unofficial Who]

14 hours ago, Noopacity said:

Trans people need and deserve protection.

 

I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others but are vulnerable.

 

I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them.

 

I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

 

5 hours ago, Noopacity said:

It's great to see so much support for things JK Rowling has actually said. 

 

BOOM! HEADSHOT!

 

This completely destroys all of my concerns. I'm actually duty bound to go and buy Hogwarts now because of the logical trap you've constructed.

 

And I mean what an idiot I am, and my fellow travellers for taking your first post in good faith rather than immediately googling it to see if this was some sort of lame gotcha. But I didn't, and well now I have to support Rowling to the hilt in her gender critical views because I didn't do my research. Them's the rules right? I'm sure my trans and nb friends will also love it when I pull this strategy on them on social media. They'll have much less stress. "Oh! I get it now!" they'll say and we'll laugh and laugh.

[jonamok]

460 posts in 20 years was a bit of a red flag, and the first post had an odd whiff about it. Now we know why.

[jonamok]

I flagged it at the outset, and say what you will about the site (and there’s much wrong with it) but Resetera had the right idea in banning all topics and talk of this game.

 

You might cry ‘muh freeze peach’, or ‘where does this censorship end?’, or ‘oh no, we’re better than that’, but this thread, and the aborted other one, have proven the point. Both achieved nothing positive. Those few mukkers who  bought the game and talked about it got “bullied” for it (tardigrade-violin.jpg), and trans allies just got frustrated and a bit down that forumites we might have previously respected didn’t care as we’d maybe imagined they might, being supposedly stalwart members of our compassionate leftist conclave and all. And of course arsehole trolls are still doing their usual arsehole troll schtick.

 

I honestly don’t believe anything of value was (or could be) gained. And, at least for me, some stuff was actually lost. Mainly with my (and I’m guessing a few others) now unavoidable and instinctive side-eyeing of a few posters I’d previously thought were ‘good guys’. I feel (a bit) bad about this, and it’s certainly my issue not theirs, as they obviously wouldn’t give a fuck about what some person they don’t know might think of them, especially considering the context around empathy. But it still upsets me.

 

So yeah, a depressing (and avoidable) exercise, and what a fucking shame that the detestable, divisive shitbag whose hateful views brought us here has helped sow division in our little corner of a pretty shitty digital world.

 

So yeah, Resetera, at least on this, was right.

[Bobby Digihill]

The phrase 'trans-identified' puts me in instant vigilence mode. Transphobic descriptors of trans people use that phrasing.

[Festoon]

I still prefer the approach the mods here took, frankly.

[Festoon]

1 minute ago, Bobby Digihill said:

The phrase 'trans-idenified' puts me in instant vigilence mode. Transphobic descriptors of trans people use that phrasing.

 

Yep. Imagine saying 'gay-identified'.

 

And her subsequent statement is like when Tommy Robinson says he has no problem with "peace-loving Muslims".

[dreamylittledream]

If anyone wants to read back about a year in this thread they’ll note that there was form for this from the same poster (and also in the transgender thread).

 

There’s also some other hilarious takes from the other side that the game was going to be quietly buried or that the Potter franchise was moribund that I’d forgotten about.

 

At this stage I’m inclined to agree with @jonamok - nothing good is coming from this conversation, and all it’s doing it upsetting pretty much everyone concerned, whether they feel it’s acceptable to play the game or not and inviting trolls 

[Unofficial Who]

I disagree, I think this was always going to be a contentious game to talk about due to the creator's views and the massive influence her work has and continues to have.

 

I can't (and won't) be giving side eye to any posters who bought the game, either unapologetically or with some misgivings. There might be some side eye reserved for a couple of people who engaged in bad faith arguments.

 

8 hours ago, dreamylittledream said:

There’s also some other hilarious takes from the other side that the game was going to be quietly buried or that the Potter franchise was moribund that I’d forgotten about.

 

I was one of these people. I felt that this was going to be a nothing burger because the game was obviously going to be at best average and that the Potter franchise was in the decline. I was wrong on both counts with many here (and in my own circle of friends) reporting that if you're a Potter fan it's unmissable. It looks on track to be the best selling game of the year. That also makes banning any talk here of it laughable. People are buying consoles to play this game. When was the last time you saw that happen?

 

8 hours ago, jonamok said:

I honestly don’t believe anything of value was (or could be) gained. And, at least for me, some stuff was actually lost. Mainly with my (and I’m guessing a few others) now unavoidable and instinctive side-eyeing of a few posters I’d previously thought were ‘good guys’. I feel (a bit) bad about this, and it’s certainly my issue not theirs, as they obviously wouldn’t give a fuck about what some person they don’t know might think of them, especially considering the context around empathy. But it still upsets me.

 

I have to admit I was taken a bit aback with some responses to my posts but given negs aren't a thing anymore I took it as a signal that I should post less and more carefully. If I got to the point where the mere existence of this thread was making me sad, well, the ignore thread button is always an option.

 

If this was a simple issue of "bad game is bad" or "bad person is bad" it would be a pretty open and shut case. But it's not. Here we've got a creator who has unarguably done a lot of good for the world, in raising literacy levels and in supporting women's rights, particularly in the middle east while at the same time supporting causes that have made life worse for a minority. And you've got a game which against expectations has the most diverse cast of characters of any in the AAA space. So you have all sorts of counter arguments that aren't simple which has led to a few of my CIS friends skipping it while a couple of nb/trans friends have bought it and enjoyed it more than any other game they've played of late.

 

I mean I guess that's why I was successfully "tricked" by Noopacity's post. I just assumed that he was acting like most have here, in good faith.

 

8 hours ago, Festoon said:

I still prefer the approach the mods here took, frankly.

 

I still think that having the discussions split would have been better but I have to admit some of that is for purely selfish reasons. I think this thread has been OK.

[bradigor]

13 hours ago, Noopacity said:

It's great to see so much support for things JK Rowling has actually said. 

 

Hmmm 

 

https://www.vox.com/culture/23622610/jk-rowling-transphobic-statements-timeline-history-controversy

 

 

[ontwofronts]

9 hours ago, jonamok said:

I flagged it at the outset, and say what you will about the site (and there’s much wrong with it) but Resetera had the right idea in banning all topics and talk of this game.

I couldn’t disagree more. It’s a thread, about a super popular game. It’s what the forum does, the point of its existence.

 

if people can’t behave in here, then ban them. If they post something inappropriate then warn them. If you don’t like the discussion, or the feelings it provokes in you, then don’t use the the thread. The forum can be a safe space, you don’t have to click on the thread title.

 

we are all grown ups here, there are standards of behaviour we can expect from other users, if they are strayed from then we have a strong moderation team to intervene. There really shouldn’t be such a mainstream game that we can’t discuss, whether the game itself or the issues surrounding it. Not least because the contents of the game itself aren’t troublesome.

 

The debate on whether you can separate the art from the artist has existed long before this game. Polanski/Jackson have trailed that one across film and music, with Polanski giving us an insight to views shifting over time.

 

Society as a whole is learning about trans people and trans issues, dogmatically refusing to discuss such a popular cultural icon like Harry Potter will not aid that learning in any way, shutting down discussion has never led to anything positive, even if the discussion can be painful, at time, in itself.

[ontwofronts]

1 hour ago, bradigor said:

 

Hmmm 

 

https://www.vox.com/culture/23622610/jk-rowling-transphobic-statements-timeline-history-controversy

 

 

That’s not a great article, the last point showing how poorly researched and constructed it is. Just look at the last sentence.

 

Quote

January 2023: Rowling tweets that she is “Deeply amused by those telling me I’ve lost their admiration due to the disrespect I show violent, duplicitous rapists.” The most immediate context for this comment is presumably both the backlash to Hogwarts Legacy and the ongoing backlash over Rowling’s views writ large regarding trans women being dangerous predators. So a reasonable implication of Rowling’s words seems to be that she considers trans women, by default, to be “violent, duplicitous rapists.”

 

[jonny_rat]

9 hours ago, jonamok said:

I flagged it at the outset, and say what you will about the site (and there’s much wrong with it) but Resetera had the right idea in banning all topics and talk of this game.

 

You might cry ‘muh freeze peach’, or ‘where does this censorship end?’, or ‘oh no, we’re better than that’, but this thread, and the aborted other one, have proven the point. Both achieved nothing positive. Those few mukkers who  bought the game and talked about it got “bullied” for it (tardigrade-violin.jpg), and trans allies just got frustrated and a bit down that forumites we might have previously respected didn’t care as we’d maybe imagined they might, being supposedly stalwart members of our compassionate leftist conclave and all. And of course arsehole trolls are still doing their usual arsehole troll schtick.

 

I honestly don’t believe anything of value was (or could be) gained. And, at least for me, some stuff was actually lost. Mainly with my (and I’m guessing a few others) now unavoidable and instinctive side-eyeing of a few posters I’d previously thought were ‘good guys’. I feel (a bit) bad about this, and it’s certainly my issue not theirs, as they obviously wouldn’t give a fuck about what some person they don’t know might think of them, especially considering the context around empathy. But it still upsets me.

 

So yeah, a depressing (and avoidable) exercise, and what a fucking shame that the detestable, divisive shitbag whose hateful views brought us here has helped sow division in our little corner of a pretty shitty digital world.

 

So yeah, Resetera, at least on this, was right.

 

I think the problem with this is that this debate isn't supposed to be pleasant, or near, or enjoyable, or even - really - productive. It mirrors the real life harm being experienced by trans people. It's a cluster fuck because the real life situation is a cluster fuck. It is depressing to find that people you respected are letting you down over this, and so it should be. 

 

I do agree that there's a limit. If the thread itself - not just the game - is making things worse for people on here for members who identify as trans or NB then you're absolutely right. If it's making everyone else feel uncomfortable.. then that's not necessarily a bad thing. It should remind us that there's something pretty awful going on and the games we play can feed into it.

 

I will also include in this the constant lamentations that this thread is going around in circles. Yes. I would imagine the people who are directly affected feel the same way too. The difference is that we get to switch it off, or delete the thread, or decide to 'just talk about the game'. They don't. 

[Zael]

While I can understand places like ResetEra and SomethingAwful closing down the Harry Potter threads I think it's always important to have the discussion as long as you can manage it, which I think the mods have done a great job with. I owe a lot of my thinking down to Anita Sarkeesian and her Tropes vs Women in Video Games series. I was just coming out of college and I had absolutely no interest in politics or cultural debates like these and it took someone bringing these topics into my space to get me thinking about them. Once that happened it lit a spark and I began to look outside of my usual spaces for more information. So I'm always a big proponent of, every so often, moving these debates into spaces like video games where you don't usually see them (although that's probably less true in 2023 than it was back in 2013).

[MK-1601]

14 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

If this was a simple issue of "bad game is bad" or "bad person is bad" it would be a pretty open and shut case. But it's not. Here we've got a creator who has unarguably done a lot of good for the world, in raising literacy levels and in supporting women's rights, particularly in the middle east while at the same time supporting causes that have made life worse for a minority. And you've got a game which against expectations has the most diverse cast of characters of any in the AAA space. So you have all sorts of counter arguments that aren't simple which has led to a few of my CIS friends skipping it while a couple of nb/trans friends have bought it and enjoyed it more than any other game they've played of late.

 

*citation needed.

 

On one hand John Wayne Gacy was a successful children's entertainer. You don't get to bank good deeds to offset later being revealed to be terrible.

[PK]

7 hours ago, ontwofronts said:

That’s not a great article, the last point showing how poorly researched and constructed it is. Just look at the last sentence.

 

January 2023: Rowling tweets that she is “Deeply amused by those telling me I’ve lost their admiration due to the disrespect I show violent, duplicitous rapists.” The most immediate context for this comment is presumably both the backlash to Hogwarts Legacy and the ongoing backlash over Rowling’s views writ large regarding trans women being dangerous predators. So a reasonable implication of Rowling’s words seems to be that she considers trans women, by default, to be “violent, duplicitous rapists.”

 

She tweeted that the day all the furore in the British press about Isla Bryson reached its peak, which is context probably lost on the American writer of that article.

 

The implication she was making with her tweet, however, was incredibly obvious - that all her anti-trans writing, and support of anti-trans organisations, was vindicated because one trans woman was in the news for being a rapist.

[Graham S]

For people who find this thread tiresome, imagine how I feel looking at my social media feed every day which includes a number of sources of trans related news. I don’t tend to post them in the transgender thread, because the constant drip drip of terrible things would weigh us all down.

 

Of course, there will always be a few news items about America’s slide into fascism. This weekend it was a CPAC speaker saying that transgenderism in public life must be eradicated, and it’s not really much of a leap to interpret that as transgender people must be eradicated. And then there will be a couple of bills to prohibit gender affirming care in a state, or take trans kids away from their parents, just as a little vision of our possible future. Or if you want to just concentrate on the U.K., here’s an inquest into the suicide of a trans woman, waiting 5 years to be seen by her GIC, and told that as she’s moved from NI to London, that time will reset. And the stressful, many years long, sometimes fruitless battle to access trans health care is the real scandal that affects so many and causes so much harm, but meanwhile JKR’s allies would make you think that blockers and hormones are casually handed out at the door of every primary school.

 

Now this game’s release has been and gone I hope you’ll all keep stories like that in your mind instead of the time you were asked not to play a game. 

[Festoon]

32 minutes ago, Graham S said:

For people who find this thread tiresome, imagine how I feel looking at my social media feed every day which includes a number of sources of trans related news. I don’t tend the post them in the transgender thread, because the constant drip drip of terrible things would weigh us all down.

 

Of course, there will always be a few news items about America’s slide into fascism. This weekend it was a CPAC speaker saying that transgenderism in public life must be eradicated, and it’s not really much a leap to interpret that as transgender people must be eradicated. And then there will be a couple of bills to prohibit gender affirming care in a state, or take trans kids away from their parents, just as a little vision of our possible future. Or if you want to just concentrate on the U.K., here’s an inquest into the suicide of a trans woman, waiting 5 years to be seen by her GIC, and told that as she’s moved from NI to London, that time will reset. And the stressful, many years long, sometimes fruitless battle to access trans health care is the real scandal that affects so many and causes so much harm, but meanwhile JKR’s allies would make you think that blockers and hormones are casually handed out at the door of every primary school.

 

Now this game’s release has been and gone I hope you’ll all keep stories like that in your mind instead of the time you were asked not to play a game. 

 

Absolutely.

 

And this

Quote

but meanwhile JKR’s allies would make you think that blockers and hormones are casually handed out at the door of every primary school.

 

is exactly why Rowling is a fucking scumbag. She knows this isn't true, but hides behind it as she thinks it's some kind of magic concern shield against being accused of being the transphobe she is