Hogwarts Legacy - Not as good as Dog Kid University

[b00dles]

5 minutes ago, Strafe said:

 

I'm "banging on" about the people saying you can't buy this game and not be against trans persecution, using the Saudi's as an example of double standards.

I think that was one person that is also NB (I think, apologies if mistaken) and the point even being made there is more akin to using this as a line in the sand, rather than the suggestion that if you buy this and don't also stop buying anything related to the Saudis ( and presumably nothing that has been made with Saudi oil etc).

 

Because obviously that's completely stupid and not what anyone was actually suggesting, even if they emotionally said buying this is like burning a pride flag. 

It clearly isn't that and isn't the intention and you're being a dick by "Well, actually..."-ing someone directly impacted by the bigotry of the author of the books that this game is based on that has then become a bit hyperbolic (although entirely justified).

 

it's a protest lack of purchase much like not buying the sun if you're a liverpudlian, or being a vegan is or not owning a car or whatever. You wouldn't "well actually " someone if they made those decisions would you? So why so defensive about a Harry Potter game?

 

 

[Strafe]

I think you’ve missed my point. I’m not defensive about the game, I just don’t like how some people in the thread have been saying that those who buy it aren’t an ally/effectively support trans persecution etc.

 

By all means call me a dick if that helps but your inability to understand this point is quite irritating.

 

 

[Festoon]

Sorry, funding a person who has stated that they take financial success as a confirmation of agreement their views is pretty suspect.

[Zael]

12 minutes ago, Strafe said:

I think you’ve missed my point. I’m not defensive about the game, I just don’t like how some people in the thread have been saying that those who buy it aren’t an ally/effectively support trans persecution etc.

 

By all means call me a dick if that helps but your inability to understand this point is quite irritating.

 

 

 

I've seen a lot of trans people say this, both my friends in real life and online. Just look at the Resetera forum for example which has a pretty strong trans community. A trans person gets to decide if you're an ally to them, you don't. Again you might have trans people in your life who don't care, or be part of a trans community who doesn't care and still consider you an ally, and that's great. But there are a lot of trans people out there who would not consider you an ally if you support JKR and that's for them to decide, not you. 

[Strafe]

5 minutes ago, Zael said:

 

I've seen a lot of trans people say this, both my friends in real life and online. Just look at the Resetera forum for example which has a pretty strong trans community. A trans person gets to decide if you're an ally to them, you don't. Again you might have trans people in your life who don't care, or be part of a trans community who doesn't care and still consider you an ally, and that's great. But there are a lot of trans people out there who would not consider you an ally if you support JKR and that's for them to decide, not you. 

 

OK, I hope everyone else takes note also.

[Rex Grossman]

6 minutes ago, Strafe said:

 

OK, I hope everyone else takes note also.

 

TBF I don't know who in this thread is trans so anyone saying you're not an ally may be well within their rights to do so.

 

[Strafe]

7 minutes ago, Rex Grossman said:

 

TBF I don't know who in this thread is trans so anyone saying you're not an ally may be well within their rights to do so.

 

Statistically not all of them I’d say.

[Haribokart]

It's weird, we all do shitty things. When I have I have I've always tried to keep quiet about it, strange how some people like to be as loud as possible about their cunt behaviour. You'd almost think they just want to offend/upset those who care about others feelings and are doing what they feel is right or something.

 

Nah, that couldn't be the case!

 

[scottcr]

1 hour ago, Strafe said:

I think you’ve missed my point. I’m not defensive about the game, I just don’t like how some people in the thread have been saying that those who buy it aren’t an ally/effectively support trans persecution etc.

 

By all means call me a dick if that helps but your inability to understand this point is quite irritating.

 

 

 

not everyone who buys this is a transphobe. The transphobe creator of the world the game is set in has stated that royalties she receives indicates support for her views.

[PK]

55 minutes ago, Strafe said:

 

OK, I hope everyone else takes note also.

 

46 minutes ago, Rex Grossman said:

 

TBF I don't know who in this thread is trans so anyone saying you're not an ally may be well within their rights to do so.

 

 

A non-binary poster did this two pages back and was told "that's just stupid". I've deliberately not tagged them as I get the impression they don't want to continue being part of the discussion.

 

3 hours ago, Mallet said:

I don't agree with this at all. 

 

Why does it matter if it is a direct line, an indirect line or some nebulous connection to the people profiting from your purchase? The end result is the same, shitty person got money from you. 

 

Alot of the same people who were in charge at Apple and Foxconn when it emerged about the workers committing suicide are still there. The same people who were a ok with those conditions are still profiting when you buy an IPhone. 

 

Like wise Tencent is still profiting when you buy Elden Ring, the connection isn't as obvious but it is still clearly there. 

 

Whenever you buy Fifa you are giving money to the people who want to get small kids addicted to gambling so they can make more money. 

 

The end result is the same

 

I understand where you're coming from, but if we accept that purely by the nature of the system we find ourselves in, the end result of pretty much every purchase we make is 'shitty person got money from you', then I think it's also possible to see a case of "this person voices hatred for that group, I do not hate that group, I will not fund this person" as offering more of an opportunity - or, possibly, just an easier one - to exert your personal ethics than trying to navigate through a homogenous mass of corporate entities, which because of their size & position within the system are linked to morally reprehensible practices. 

[ZOK]

1 minute ago, scottcr said:

The transphobe creator of the world the game is set in has stated that royalties she receives indicates support for her views.

Or at least that’s how some people are choosing to interpret it. I regard her as a transphobe, but I don’t agree with that interpretation of what she said. It’s certainly not an unambiguous statement.

[Hexx]

There's an awful lot of somewhat hysterical defensiveness from the purchasers

 

For instance. I dislike Blizzard/Activision. I stopped buying/subbing their their products during the height of the negative press a few years ago. I recently "caved" and went back to Wow because my friends did and my self centred interests outweighed my principals. It can be rationalised down to relatively minor transgression/support for terrible business practises, but at it's heart it's a position that leaves me open to valid criticism. People might think less or judge me for it - and they're probably fair to (up to a point :P). I'd probably agree with them (up to a point :P). It's a self centred flaw I wish I was stronger to overcome.

 

It seems a lot of people wanting to buy HP Legacy (a different issue from simply funding a shitty company as well) are coming across as, I'm sorry, entitled fucking snowflakes though demanding that their position/decision is beyond even the slightest bit of reproach. No one's telling you to boycott it (unless the threads changed in its highspeed posting). Just that there's obvious conclusions and consequences people can and sometimes will draw from where you spend you money. Just fucking own it rather than these endlessly circular rants how you're doing nothing wrong. 

 

 

 

[Hexx]

Quote

A non-binary poster did this two pages back and was told "that's just stupid". I've deliberately not tagged them as I get the impression they don't want to continue being part of the discussion.

 

I'm glad someone else spotted that as it was chuffin odd.

[thesnwmn]

11 minutes ago, Hexx said:

There's an awful lot of somewhat hysterical defensiveness from the purchasers

 

For instance. I dislike Blizzard/Activision. I stopped buying/subbing their their products during the height of the negative press a few years ago. I recently "caved" and went back to Wow because my friends did and my self centred interests outweighed my principals. It can be rationalised down to relatively minor transgression/support for terrible business proactive, but at it's heart it's a position that leaves me open to valid criticism. People might think less or judge me for it - and they're probably fair to (up to a point :P). I'd probably agree with them - up to a point. It's a self centred flaw I wish I was stronger to overcome.

 

It seems a lot of people wanting to buy HP Legacy(a different issue from simply funding a shitty company as well) are coming across as, I'm sorry, entitled fucking snowflakes though demanding that their position/decision is beyond even the slightest bit of reproach. No one's telling you to boycott it (unless the threads changes in its highspeed posting). Just that there's obvious conclusions and consequences from where you spend you money. Just fucking own it rather than these endlessly circular rants how you're doing nothing wrong. 

 

 

 

 

I actually think most people here aren't buying it at all.

 

But this is rightly a very hot button topic and the way we discuss how people make spending choices is always engaging.

 

I think the vast majority (probably all) are fully supporting of the rights and are against JKR but they (rightly or wrongly) feel a little attacked here too. Of course their feelings around that are not the same as those of trans people and the persecution they face.

 

As an aside, I'm the person who said it was a stupid comment. I understand why that might come across as offensive, understand the perspective that people who but it aren't allies and it is of course the individual and groups choice what to feel and think that. But I don't think it's a good thing for any movement long term. But no personal offense was meant by it.

[bradigor]

2 hours ago, thesnwmn said:

 

Yeah, I was over playing that for effect. Sorry.

 

There are statements in here that at least imply, if not state, that people are bad and unthinking or a little uncaring if they're still buying it.

 

Or that the only way to interpret buying the game is that you support the views of JKR. Or that at least JKR will interpret it this way. Which, as above, I don't consider to be a good way of thinking about it.

 

I feel I must clarify. I don't think anyone is morally bankrupt or even wrong for buying the game, reading the books, watching the films, going on the tour, etc, etc. 

 

Please do so, I don't think any less of anyone. But in my personal view you are not an ally. You aren't willing to make that extra sacrifice to show solidarity. That's not a problem, that's life. I will do things that go against other beliefs. 

 

I still eat meat but I agree with the thoughts of those who want us to change to help save the planet. I can't call myself an ally though, as an example.

 

I hope that makes sense. I just want to point out that I don't think any less of anyone because of thier choice of purchase. 

 

For the record... I am not trans myself, partly because I don't have the courage, instead I am non-binary, but I know I am living a lie because of the likes of JKR, Glinner, etc. That will likely never change in my lifetime, but I want it to be better for future generations.

[Rex Grossman]

47 minutes ago, PK said:

A non-binary poster did this two pages back and was told "that's just stupid". I've deliberately not tagged them as I get the impression they don't want to continue being part of the discussion.

There we go. I had no idea that person was non-binary which just goes to show you can’t dismiss someone’s opinion on who is an ally.

[bradigor]

49 minutes ago, PK said:

 

 

A non-binary poster did this two pages back and was told "that's just stupid". I've deliberately not tagged them as I get the impression they don't want to continue being part of the discussion.

 

 

Thank you. I have since had a sleep and taken my meds so am feeling rational again. I appreciate it though. 

[Darren]

When an NB person explains why buying this game makes you not an ally, and people keep popping up to tell them they're wrong, is that transplaining?

[Majora]

11 minutes ago, Darren said:

When an NB person explains why buying this game makes you not an ally, and people keep popping up to tell them they're wrong, is that transplaining?

 

Being incredibly pedantic, that wouldn't work as mansplaining is a man condescendingly explaining things to a woman so the equivalent here would probably be cisplaining.

 

Sorry for ruining a joke 😔

[Lying Cat]

9 minutes ago, Majora said:

 

Being incredibly pedantic, that wouldn't work as mansplaining is a man condescendingly explaining things to a woman so the equivalent here would probably be cisplaining.

 

Sorry for ruining a joke 😔

 

Stop splainsplaining.

[Unofficial Who]

I'd add here that JK isn't a "stupid" transphobe. She's arguably been an incredibly influential figure along with at least one other in walking trans rights backwards and in pushing trans and nb people back into the closet. I've spoken elsewhere about how a friend of mine, a lifelong fan of her work (as well as being a fan of another prominent anti trans writer) cancelled their transition due to their writings.

 

So unlike other (relevant) examples raised this one does feel like there's a straight line from buying the game to the royalties hitting JK's pocket to directly effecting people I know. So it's simple for me in this case. But it's not simple for everyone.

 

It's kind of similar to the Orson Scott Card situation a few years back. He's an immensely talented writer. And years ago he was using his influence to campaign against same sex marriage. At the time I really wanted to see Ender's Game and play Shadow Complex. And I looked for reasons to wriggle through in order to do this. At the time I couldn't justify throwing money directly at a writer that was directly campaigning to make the lives of my friends worse. I didn't judge those who did see the movie or played the game. (At least I think I didn't, hey, my posts on Shadow Complex are still up! Go dig up some dirt from a time when I was more hot blooded.)

 

I did play Shadow Complex in the end. (It was "free" from Epic and I wasn't fully aware that downloading a "free" game probably still counted towards his income.)

 

But here's where it gets complicated. Have I watched Ender's Game? No. But I have played and replayed The Secret of Monkey Island. And here's something a lot of you don't know. He wrote all the sword fighting dialogue for the game. Is that going to stop me from replaying the game out of nostalgia? Probably not.

 

There's a great short piece on OSC from ten years ago about how complicated these things are.

 

https://www.wired.com/2013/10/enders-game/

 

Quote

I'M NOT GOING to see Ender's Game. This is not a revelation. I'm queer. My opinion of Orson Scott Card's politics and his flimsy rationalizations is on record. I don't buy books he writes. I don't watch the movies based on them.

But I've still got a paperback on my shelf -- battered and worn in the way beloved books get, spine floppy, corners bent. On the title page, in faded blue ballpoint pen, it's inscribed: "To Rachel - a friend of Ender."

 

Quote

But there's that battered, beloved old paperback still sitting on my shelf, and I can't and don't want to erase what it's meant to me. Whoever I am, wherever I've come from, as a writer and a human being, Ender's Game was part of that. And so was Card.

But I don't want to walk away without stopping to mourn for what was worth mourning.

 

Quote

Once, early in our correspondence, Card and I talked about villains. I don't remember the exact words, but Card's advice stuck with me: to find something worth loving in every antagonist. It's the lesson that made Speaker for the Dead my partner's favorite book in the Ender series: that no one is all good or all bad; that most of us live the lives we think we have to.

If this were fiction, there would be a clear answer. Real life is messier, the stakes higher. Complex and painful problems aren't always offset by elegant solutions. Sometimes, there's no right answer. Sometimes every choice means letting go of something valuable -- the question isn't "whether," but "what."

 

I guess we all have lines we draw somewhere.

 

My view? If you buy this game you can't expect all trans and nb people to think you're an ally when you're directly giving money to the public face of a movement that says "you don't exist. You can't exist. You won't exist." For me it's a straight line.

 

I do know some nb people who believe that engaging in such debate is a fool's errand. That making people feel bad about their purchases will only drive up sales and drive people away from supporting trans and nb people. That the way to keep dialogue open is to "be one of the good ones" and not close off avenues of discussion.

 

I'm sure there are some who don't give a shit, who don't think about JK at all or as far as they're concerned she's in the rear view mirror of their lives. "Why would I give two hoots about what a children's book author would have to say?"

 

And I do know at least one nb person who is buying this day one and is super excited. For them they can totally separate the JK of their youth and the current one. (And I hope that the game is at least clear of anti trans and anti nb themes for their sake because I don't want to see their heart broken.)

 

Anyway I'm sure I've said all this before and I'm going to try avoiding sounding like a broken record on this. I've skin in the game on this but I'm not sure the ResetEra approach of "ban all talk of this" is ultra useful, all I think it's going to do is lose the ability to argue the case as to why some people are upset about a writer's anti trans campaigns in front of the people who might benefit from hearing it.

[Festoon]

3 hours ago, Hexx said:

It seems a lot of people wanting to buy HP Legacy 

 

I'd love if this was a sauce-related game.

[Festoon]

I reckon it'll be super-successful, the pre-orders indicate so, but then Rowling will get pushback on the main character gender depiction customisation stuff, post something fairly hateful, and it'll all kick off.

[Floyd]

It might be a shit game anyway. 

[Festoon]

2 minutes ago, Floyd said:

It might be a shit game anyway. 

 

It's be middle of the road.

[Flub]

38 minutes ago, Festoon said:

I reckon it'll be super-successful, the pre-orders indicate so, but then Rowling will get pushback on the main character gender depiction customisation stuff, post something fairly hateful, and it'll all kick off.

 

That's a good point. She's almost certainly completely unaware that's the case and will no doubt hear about it from someone in a rage. I wonder how she'd react.

 

Although isn't this set in a time period where wizards don't have toilets and just shit themselves?

[Festoon]

Just now, Flub said:

 

That's a good point. She's almost certainly completely unaware that's the case and will no doubt hear about it from someone in a rage. I wonder how she'd react.

 

Although isn't this set in a time period where wizards don't have toilets and just shit themselves?

 

Her loony transphobe friends will be al lover Twitter pressing her on it. She'll have to respond.

[Dig Dug]

Considering the first 3 Harry Potter books were mandatory reads in my primary school this justifies being posted.

 

The problems caused by this woman are not exclusively a trans issue. Framing it as such has allowed to her to mostly get away with it.

 

Transphobia is rooted in both misogyny and homophobia. To attack that group is to attack others by association. He/him lesbians were a thing before the media obsession of trans people, nothing being presented in the “trans debate” is new. The only thing that changed is that more people are now willingly coming out as LGBT+.

 

Rowling and her ilk are reacting to something that is inherently counter-cultural be it gay men, non-binaries, butch lesbians or cis-women who do not align with a closed idea of what a woman should be. This was never just about trans people.

 

When people say you can’t buy this game and call yourself an ally with a straight face, this is what they mean. Business success is vindication for Rowling, that’s been established enough times by now.

[Festoon]

2 minutes ago, Dig Dug said:

Considering the first 3 Harry Potter books were mandatory reads in my primary school this justifies being posted.

 

The problems caused by this woman are not exclusively a trans issue. Framing it as such has allowed to her to mostly get away with it.

 

Transphobia is rooted in both misogyny and homophobia. To attack that group is to attack others by association. He/him lesbians were a thing before the media obsession of trans people, nothing being presented in the “trans debate” is new. The only thing that changed is that more people are now willingly coming out as LGBT+.

 

Rowling and her ilk are reacting to something that is inherently counter-cultural be it gay men, non-binaries, butch lesbians or cis-women who do not align with a closed idea of what a woman should be. This was never just about trans people.

 

When people say you can’t buy this game and call yourself an ally with a straight face, this is what they mean. Business success is vindication for Rowling, that’s been established enough times by now.

 

Absolutely, the logical track it is leading to is Homophobia.

[Strafe]

6 minutes ago, Flub said:

 

That's a good point. She's almost certainly completely unaware that's the case and will no doubt hear about it from someone in a rage. I wonder how she'd react.

The gender selection options were revealed in March last year - quite loudly in news terms - and I can’t imagine she doesn’t know nearly a year later as it’s her IP and you’d, reasonably, expect a creator to keep at least cursory tabs on it.

 

I would be surprised if there wasn’t some contractual clause preventing her from generating negative publicity over the game at risk of forgoing profits. I think she’ll keep her mouth shut.