Hogwarts Legacy - Not as good as Dog Kid University

[jonamok]

Looks pretty good. In a few months, I’ll likely grab a cheap PS5 copy from CEX, with the disc no doubt smeared in jam and worse.

[Unofficial Who]

The Mary Sue have posted a list of alternative games to play instead of Hogwarts Legacy and while I think they're drawing a long bow with some picks it might be worth looking at. 

 

https://www.themarysue.com/games-like-hogwarts-legacy-to-play-instead-of-continuing-to-fund-j-k-rowling/?

 

I can recommend Ikenfell although if your kids are looking forward to Hogwarts I doubt this would fill the gap for them.

 

[drmick]

On 26/01/2023 at 14:27, Broker said:

Some of the posts in this thread stray dangerously close to a historical pattern that has always been negative. The idea that persecuted minority groups and the people who support them should be quiet and polite and only deal with social issues in terms which are comfortable for the majority groups is bullshit. Martin Luther King was repeatedly told that if he really wanted to affect change he needed to be polite and quiet and engage with the persecution him and other black people faced using the systems that were set up to destroy their lives and to definitely never make any white people uncomfortable, because what if they could be convinced to care about the lives of black people but were put off by being told the ways they were complicit in racism. The suffragettes were told to be less hysterical and make absolutely sure that they didn’t upset any men who might one day theoretically decide that actually they did care about women’s rights. 
 

Deciding to buy this game is like continuing to support a bakery that won’t make cakes for gay weddings because you love their Victoria sponge. You are absolutely free to make that choice, but when someone from the group who are being persecuted tells you that that is wrong, no amount of mental gymnastics or “well actually” is going to change the fact that you are choosing your own entertainment over caring about the rights of people whose lives are being made miserable and difficult. You can bring up all the unethical buying habits in other unrelated areas that you want to, but they’re completely irrelevant to this particular discussion. You are choosing to financially support a campaign of repression lead by an individual and if that makes you feel uncomfortable and you care about those people, you should be looking that fact straight in the eye and feeling that discomfort, not trying to come up with excuses about other people being wrong because they once bought a tub of nesquik. 
 

In our repulsive hyper capitalist hellscape we are all complicit in supporting repulsive practices. You can make whatever choices you want, but you need to be honest about what the choices you are making mean and accept that you might be making the world a worse place through what you choose to support financially. The idea that if I buy Zelda this year I will be in any way supporting the human rights abuses of the Saudi government makes me feel repulsive. I might still decide to do that, but if I’m going to state that those abuses are something I think is wrong, I absolutely should not be trying to pretend that actually it’s fine because someone else bought a new iPhone. 
 

I grew up with Harry Potter, queued up to buy the books at midnight, read them to my kids, watched the movies with my mum, went to the studio tour and bought an overpriced slytherin hoodie. This game looks shit, but the world means a lot to me and it has been really hard for me to let go of that because I don’t feel comfortable directly financially supporting someone who despises others because of their identity and uses their influence and money to encourage others to do the same. 

 

In this case though- where does the line get drawn?

 

Is it ok to buy it if a child who has no concept of the TERF issue really wants it?

Is it ok to buy the game second hand?

Is it ok to take the game if offered for free?

Do we expect everyone who worked on the game to quit their jobs or risk getting fired if they also have the same level of concern?

Is it ok for websites and magazines to review the game?

Should print and screen media be allowed to advertise the game?

Should there even be a thread on the game on here?

What if the transgender community came out and said that it was ok for people to play this game?

What if JKR does a complete turnaround and supports transgender rights and apologises for her previous statements?

 

I know you are only speaking from your point of view- but curious to know if expect others to take the same stance in support of your values, or if you would take offence if others derived enjoyment from the game with full knowledge of JKR's views?

[b00dles]

Everyone draws their own line in different places. 

 

There's no need to extrapolate things out to such an unnecessary degree. 

[Unofficial Who]

2 hours ago, drmick said:

In this case though- where does the line get drawn?

 

I love tests like this.

 

2 hours ago, drmick said:

Is it ok to buy it if a child who has no concept of the TERF issue really wants it?

 

Swings and roundabouts. You might end up exposing your kiddo to her terf views but even if they stick to the game it looks like there's some pretty problematic stuff there about putting down a slave rebellion. If I had kids I wouldn't buy it but what would I know about raising kids? I don't have any and back in my day washing a kids mouth out with soap or adults randomly dishing out a "clip" around the ears was commonplace so I wouldn't take my advice.

 

2 hours ago, drmick said:

Is it ok to buy the game second hand?

Is it ok to take the game if offered for free?

 

Well that really gets into the weeds morally. Buying second hand is seen as theft by some publishers. If by offered for free you mean via something like GamePass I think payment is still made to the people involved and the success of the giveaway leads to future projects. If you mean free as in given to you by someone, I don't know. Maybe?

 

2 hours ago, drmick said:

Do we expect everyone who worked on the game to quit their jobs or risk getting fired if they also have the same level of concern?

 

Well they've already been paid for their work thus far. I suspect that anyone who had major issues weighed up their life circumstances and have either decided to suck it up or have already quietly moved on.

 

2 hours ago, drmick said:

Is it ok for websites and magazines to review the game?

Why not? And I've seen a range of responses across various media outlets depending on their readership. Mainstream reviewers will cover it, smaller operations with more niche audiences might review the politics of it or not review it at all. I mean some might decide to ban talk of it all together and we've seen one forum do exactly that. The general consensus here on both sides of the debate is that it might actually be counterproductive in terms of their aims.

 

2 hours ago, drmick said:

Should print and screen media be allowed to advertise the game?

I don't think that's even up for debate. Advertisers have booked spots on the sides of buses, it's up to the people selling spots to accept them or not. I suspect Pink News wouldn't be accepting advertising for the game and I suspect Warner would see that as wasted money in any case.

 

2 hours ago, drmick said:

Should there even be a thread on the game on here?

Yes, though there is debate over what direction the thread should take once the game is out. One might ask "is it ok to keep talking about the negative issues around the ip's creator post launch and making the thread a bit of a bummer for those who just want to play the game?"

 

2 hours ago, drmick said:

What if the transgender community came out and said that it was ok for people to play this game?

 

Bolded. Because this has come up time and time again in this thread. We even had a non-binary member of the forum say something to the effect of "go for it but you can't call yourself and ally if you do so." And the response was to paraphrase "Wrong answer, back in your box chocolate." There have been loads of trans and nb people online saying that you can't buy this game and call yourself an ally. I reckon not many of them would be foolish enough to put their real name to that view though. If you do enough searching you will find some people who are trans or nb who are going to buy this game day one. So if you're looking for permission from the trans community you pretty much have it from some. For whatever that means. I mean I remember during the lead up to the same sex marriage plebiscite there were at least two or three men in same sex relationships who came out as "the good ones who were against same sex marriage."

 

There's also a few who see this as an in regarding talking about trans rights. I think that's naive at best as such an exchange would likely be as follows.

 

"So is it ok to buy Hogwarts Legacy?"

"Sure, it's just a videogame. This is a good opp..."

"Thanks! HEY EVERYONE! THIS TRANS PERSON SAYS IT'S OK TO BUY HOGWARTS LEGACY!"

"Yeah but if we could just talk about the plight of trans wo...."

"Nope, I'm all good. Too busy playing my sweet new game! Thanks again though, I'll just screen cap this so all my mates know that this is fine."

 

3 hours ago, drmick said:

What if JKR does a complete turnaround and supports transgender rights and apologises for her previous statements?

 

What if wishes were trees? I mean I'm a big fan of redemption arcs but I don't see this happening. And as much as I'm against what she's doing I can see exactly why she's doing this as a response to things that have happened in her life. It's not going to happen and as such I'll be skipping this because I can't give money and support to someone who essentially depicts all trans women as fetishists and sex offenders.

 

3 hours ago, drmick said:

I know you are only speaking from your point of view- but curious to know if expect others to take the same stance in support of your values, or if you would take offence if others derived enjoyment from the game with full knowledge of JKR's views?

No and even if I did so what? I don't know most of the people here in real life. I have very different life experiences from others here and different views. Which is why I'm happy to explain why I'm skipping it but not telling others they should. If you buy this game and enjoy this the effect it will have on me directly is minimal. Others mileage on that may vary.

 

There's a piece over at the Mary Sue called "Debunking Every Lie You’re Telling Yourself About ‘Hogwarts Legacy’"

https://www.themarysue.com/debunking-every-lie-youre-telling-yourself-about-hogwarts-legacy/

 

Some bits I agree with, some bits I don't. (The current argument that "the Harry Potter books were never that great anyway" strikes me as revisionist sour grapes. The early ones were great, the series was clever at the time growing in sophistication year by year that matched the audience and I'd argue the latter books were ruined by JK having to race to keep up with the movies as well as having to twist the story whenever internet detectives correctly guessed her intentions for the ending.) But it's worth a quick skim.

 

But anyway this is a long way of me saying I think you've already made up your mind and are looking at reasons not to feel bad about your decision. In which case you can either interrogate yourself as to why you might feel bad or you can just do what buy it for yourself or your kid and enjoy it for what it is. Why would you care if I took offence to you enjoying the game on it's own merits?

[drmick]

1 hour ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

I love tests like this.

 

 

Swings and roundabouts. You might end up exposing your kiddo to her terf views but even if they stick to the game it looks like there's some pretty problematic stuff there about putting down a slave rebellion. If I had kids I wouldn't buy it but what would I know about raising kids? I don't have any and back in my day washing a kids mouth out with soap or adults randomly dishing out a "clip" around the ears was commonplace so I wouldn't take my advice.

 

 

Well that really gets into the weeds morally. Buying second hand is seen as theft by some publishers. If by offered for free you mean via something like GamePass I think payment is still made to the people involved and the success of the giveaway leads to future projects. If you mean free as in given to you by someone, I don't know. Maybe?

 

 

Well they've already been paid for their work thus far. I suspect that anyone who had major issues weighed up their life circumstances and have either decided to suck it up or have already quietly moved on.

 

Why not? And I've seen a range of responses across various media outlets depending on their readership. Mainstream reviewers will cover it, smaller operations with more niche audiences might review the politics of it or not review it at all. I mean some might decide to ban talk of it all together and we've seen one forum do exactly that. The general consensus here on both sides of the debate is that it might actually be counterproductive in terms of their aims.

 

I don't think that's even up for debate. Advertisers have booked spots on the sides of buses, it's up to the people selling spots to accept them or not. I suspect Pink News wouldn't be accepting advertising for the game and I suspect Warner would see that as wasted money in any case.

 

Yes, though there is debate over what direction the thread should take once the game is out. One might ask "is it ok to keep talking about the negative issues around the ip's creator post launch and making the thread a bit of a bummer for those who just want to play the game?"

 

 

Bolded. Because this has come up time and time again in this thread. We even had a non-binary member of the forum say something to the effect of "go for it but you can't call yourself and ally if you do so." And the response was to paraphrase "Wrong answer, back in your box chocolate." There have been loads of trans and nb people online saying that you can't buy this game and call yourself an ally. I reckon not many of them would be foolish enough to put their real name to that view though. If you do enough searching you will find some people who are trans or nb who are going to buy this game day one. So if you're looking for permission from the trans community you pretty much have it from some. For whatever that means. I mean I remember during the lead up to the same sex marriage plebiscite there were at least two or three men in same sex relationships who came out as "the good ones who were against same sex marriage."

 

There's also a few who see this as an in regarding talking about trans rights. I think that's naive at best as such an exchange would likely be as follows.

 

"So is it ok to buy Hogwarts Legacy?"

"Sure, it's just a videogame. This is a good opp..."

"Thanks! HEY EVERYONE! THIS TRANS PERSON SAYS IT'S OK TO BUY HOGWARTS LEGACY!"

"Yeah but if we could just talk about the plight of trans wo...."

"Nope, I'm all good. Too busy playing my sweet new game! Thanks again though, I'll just screen cap this so all my mates know that this is fine."

 

 

What if wishes were trees? I mean I'm a big fan of redemption arcs but I don't see this happening. And as much as I'm against what she's doing I can see exactly why she's doing this as a response to things that have happened in her life. It's not going to happen and as such I'll be skipping this because I can't give money and support to someone who essentially depicts all trans women as fetishists and sex offenders.

 

No and even if I did so what? I don't know most of the people here in real life. I have very different life experiences from others here and different views. Which is why I'm happy to explain why I'm skipping it but not telling others they should. If you buy this game and enjoy this the effect it will have on me directly is minimal. Others mileage on that may vary.

 

There's a piece over at the Mary Sue called "Debunking Every Lie You’re Telling Yourself About ‘Hogwarts Legacy’"

https://www.themarysue.com/debunking-every-lie-youre-telling-yourself-about-hogwarts-legacy/

 

Some bits I agree with, some bits I don't. (The current argument that "the Harry Potter books were never that great anyway" strikes me as revisionist sour grapes. The early ones were great, the series was clever at the time growing in sophistication year by year that matched the audience and I'd argue the latter books were ruined by JK having to race to keep up with the movies as well as having to twist the story whenever internet detectives correctly guessed her intentions for the ending.) But it's worth a quick skim.

 

But anyway this is a long way of me saying I think you've already made up your mind and are looking at reasons not to feel bad about your decision. In which case you can either interrogate yourself as to why you might feel bad or you can just do what buy it for yourself or your kid and enjoy it for what it is. Why would you care if I took offence to you enjoying the game on it's own merits?

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. But you are way,way off with your assumptions in that last paragraph- just to be clear.

[Unofficial Who]

5 minutes ago, drmick said:

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. But you are way,way off with your assumptions in that last paragraph- just to be clear.

Highly likely. I mean this sort of argument goes all the way back to Aesop’s fable about taking a donkey to market and trying to please every person along the road.

 

In the end you make your choice for your own reasons knowing it’s impossible to please everyone. There are just as many people in this thread who would be unhappy at the my reasons real or imagined for skipping this game as there are people who would be displeased with your reasons real or imagined for buying it.

[Hamus]

It's really simple.

 

If you wear a Nazi Uniform, but you didn't buy it, then it's fine.

[spanx]

From a gameplay perspective this looks about as right up my alley as you can get, but on the basis I want to be able to look my eldest child, who has come out as trans in the last couple of years, in the eye and authentically say I love them and support them, this can be fucked in to the bin as far as I’m concerned. 

[Gabe]

15 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

There's also a few who see this as an in regarding talking about trans rights. I think that's naive at best as such an exchange would likely be as follows.

 

"So is it ok to buy Hogwarts Legacy?"

"Sure, it's just a videogame. This is a good opp..."

"Thanks! HEY EVERYONE! THIS TRANS PERSON SAYS IT'S OK TO BUY HOGWARTS LEGACY!"

"Yeah but if we could just talk about the plight of trans wo...."

"Nope, I'm all good. Too busy playing my sweet new game! Thanks again though, I'll just screen cap this so all my mates know that this is fine."

I doubt for the vast majority of people they even get to the point of asking the initial question there, either because they don't know about Rowling, they don't think it is an issue, or they simply don't care. I would imagine the number of people seeking some kind of 'permission' to buy it is infinitesimal.

[jonathanhoey]

Excellent post by @Unofficial Who and I kinda feel bad for cherrypicking out just this bit as it feels like a lot of the rest of it also deserves a response. But anyway: 

 

23 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

I'll be skipping this because I can't give money and support to someone who essentially depicts all trans women as fetishists and sex offenders.

 

 

Bolded essentially because she's now well past the point of 'essentially' suggesting or implying anything. Instead she has just literally come right out and said it. 

 

 

Literally "trans people are rapists". No beating around the bush of any kind.  

 

Every day the woman becomes a nastier, more outspoken, increasingly emboldened, vile piece of bigoted shit. 

 

As an aside, the number of likes and supportive replies is really fucking depressing. 

 

I'm reminded of Brexit. Sure, some people might have had compelling reasons to vote Leave that weren't to do with being bigoted. But they still chose to stand with the bigots and by so doing, fucked everything up for the rest of us. 

[Lying Cat]

How are the fucks even missing if she knows exactly which box they're in?

[Unofficial Who]

53 minutes ago, jonathanhoey said:

Excellent post by @Unofficial Who and I kinda feel bad for cherrypicking out just this bit as it feels like a lot of the rest of it also deserves a response. But anyway: 

 

 

Bolded essentially because she's now well past the point of 'essentially' suggesting or implying anything. Instead she has just literally come right out and said it. 

 

 

Literally "trans people are rapists". No beating around the bush of any kind.  

 

Well that is a major bummer. And it's essentially a repeat of the stuff that used to be said of people in same sex relationships ten years ago, even on this forum.

 

Incredibly sad.

[BigShimmeryWall]

13 minutes ago, Lying Cat said:

How are the fucks even missing if she knows exactly which box they're in?

And if she's lost their admiration, how's she filing it away?

[JPL]

7 hours ago, jonathanhoey said:

Bolded essentially because she's now well past the point of 'essentially' suggesting or implying anything. Instead she has just literally come right out and said it. 

 

 

Literally "trans people are rapists". No beating around the bush of any kind.  

Is she referring to someone in particular here, presumably a trans rapist? I’m only asking because she doesn’t actually mention trans in her post, but you’ve said that’s literally what she’s said.

 

I’m not defending her by the way, but I don’t know much about her and wondered what the context was here. Plus, I also don’t use Twitter, so I’m pretty shielded from her, other than the bits I read on here.

 

It’s a game my youngest son is interested in, so I’d like to know more about these issues. I know it’s not a problem for him, but I wouldn’t want my money going to her if she’s just making shit like that up.

[Radish]

It could be a reference to this?

 

 

[Fargo]

Yeah that’s a reference to the case in Scotland 

[Rex Grossman]

9 hours ago, jonathanhoey said:

Literally "trans people are rapists". No beating around the bush of any kind.  

She is literally not literally saying that.

 

It doesn’t do the cause any good to say ‘see, she says all trans people are rapists’ when she’s talking about a high-profile rape case.

[Cheyenne]

She's using a plural, it's charitable to say she's referring specifically to this one case.

[Rex Grossman]

1 minute ago, Cheyenne said:

She's using a plural, it's charitable to say she's referring specifically to this one case.

It’s not charitable it’s common sense. She says enough things that shows how she feels without cherry picking. In this tweet she was basically saying ‘see, I said this would happen’.

 

She’s been banging on for years about men invading women’s spaces and has said the eventual conclusion is that violent sex offenders who later identify as women will be locked up in prison with vulnerable women. She finally had a concrete example and basically celebrated. 

[fat flatulent git]

12 minutes ago, Cheyenne said:

She's using a plural, it's charitable to say she's referring specifically to this one case.

Two cases:  Isla Bryson and |Tiffany Scott.

[Unofficial Who]

25 minutes ago, Rex Grossman said:

It’s not charitable it’s common sense. She says enough things that shows how she feels without cherry picking. In this tweet she was basically saying ‘see, I said this would happen’.

 

She’s been banging on for years about men invading women’s spaces and has said the eventual conclusion is that violent sex offenders who later identify as women will be locked up in prison with vulnerable women. She finally had a concrete example and basically celebrated. 

 

18 minutes ago, fat flatulent git said:

Two cases:  Isla Bryson and |Tiffany Scott.

 

If that's the case then (and to be fair I don't use twitter) then there's a thread in Off Topic where we we're discussing the ins and outs of those two cases. It might be better (or fairer) to talk about it there rather than a thread about Hogwart's Legacy.

[JPL]

I’m also wondering if by using the word duplicitous, she’s insinuating that this rapist has deliberately turned trans to get an easier life in a women’s prison.

[Unofficial Who]

11 minutes ago, JPL said:

I’m also wondering if by using the word duplicitous, she’s insinuating that this rapist has deliberately turned trans to get an easier life in a women’s prison.

 

It's open to interpretation which the more cynical might argue is the intent given her day job is as a wordsmith. Again though, maybe dragging this thread off topic and it's somewhat futile to argue intent here.

[Festoon]

3 minutes ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

It's open to interpretation which the more cynical might argue is the intent given her day job is as a wordsmith. Again though, maybe dragging this thread off topic and it's somewhat futile to argue intent here.

 

Yes, she knows exactly what she's doing.

[Rex Grossman]

24 minutes ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

 

If that's the case then (and to be fair I don't use twitter) then there's a thread in Off Topic where we we're discussing the ins and outs of those two cases. It might be better (or fairer) to talk about it there rather than a thread about Hogwart's Legacy.

Those cases certainly have no bearing on this game. And everyone knows JKR Will use those cases to further her agenda. 

[Rex Grossman]

8 minutes ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

It's open to interpretation which the more cynical might argue is the intent given her day job is as a wordsmith. Again though, maybe dragging this thread off topic and it's somewhat futile to argue intent here.

I personally thinks it’s fair to say:

She doesn’t think everyone who is trans is a rapist

She will use this case to her advantage 

 

 

 

[Festoon]

It would an acutely ahistorical mind to imagine that making a braying racket about this case without a single mention that it doesn't apply to all trans people would be like the papers in the 80's focusing on gay paedophiles.

 

She knows exactly what she's doing.

[Darren]

11 minutes ago, Rex Grossman said:

I personally thinks it’s fair to say:

She doesn’t think everyone who is trans is a rapist

She will use this case to her advantage 

 

 

 

I think it’s fairer to say she thinks trans people don’t really exist, and everyone claiming to be trans is lying for nefarious reasons, which can include getting into situations where they can more easily rape women.

[Rex Grossman]

10 minutes ago, Darren said:

I think it’s fairer to say she thinks trans people don’t really exist, and everyone claiming to be trans is lying for nefarious reasons, which can include getting into situations where they can more easily rape women.

I personally think that’s a stretch but the fact that JKR is anti-trans rights is all we need for this thread and I don’t think anyone will dispute that.