Hogwarts Legacy - Not as good as Dog Kid University

[PK]

Not ally: Pays money for the game new, some of which will go to Rowling in the form of royalty payments

Ally: Buys it secondhand if they want to play it

 

Not an enormous amount of nuance IMO

[Gabe]

7 minutes ago, PK said:

Not ally: Pays money for the game new, some of which will go to Rowling in the form of royalty payments

Ally: Buys it secondhand if they want to play it

 

Not an enormous amount of nuance IMO

I mean you seem to have completely ignored the main thrust of my question there, but okay.

 

To reiterate, in your view does buying the game mean you can no longer be an ally, forever?

 

I actually disagree with buying it secondhand being okay, incidentally. I think if you are going to make a principled stand, then you should be willing to maintain those principles and not just get what you want via a backdoor approach. Feels like having your cake and eating it.

[QuackQuack]

2 hours ago, Isaac said:

 

Focusing on the game here, this is going to set a new bar in terms of ludo narrative dissonance isn't it?

 

Murdering hundreds of faceless death eaters isn't really very Harry Potter.

 

I don't see why a game like this needs regular combat at all. Surely it'd work better as a third person exploration game with the odd bit of duelling? 

 

It would maybe have been nicer to have a sort of Animal Crossing style thing set in Hogwarts. Go to the different classes, collect some stuff, etc. etc.

[PK]

2 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I mean you seem to have completely ignored the main thrust of my question there, but okay.

 

To reiterate, in your view does buying the game mean you can no longer be an ally, forever?

 

I actually disagree with buying it secondhand being okay, incidentally. I think if you are going to make a principled stand, then you should be willing to maintain those principles and not just get what you want via a backdoor approach. Feels like having your cake and eating it.

 

Well the main thrust of your question seemed to be "but where does it end?!?!?!" so i thought I'd answer a more relevant one. Of course buying the game doesn't exclude you from being an ally of trans people forever. But it's not the act of an ally.

 

 

And your position on buying it secondhand suggests you're missing the point, which is not to never read, listen to, play, draw, or imagine anything Harry Potter related ever again. The point is that an ally of a harassed and marginalised group should not fund somebody who spends her time actively encouraging the further harassment and marginalisation of that group. The cake isn't the issue, it's the repugnant dickhead of a baker who's the problem, so don't give her any money.

[Rex Grossman]

It’s trans people who get to decide who is an ally. It’s irrelevant how anyone else considers themselves.

 

There have been some gay women complaining that they are no longer seen as allies because they don’t have sexual relationships with trans women and that this is unfair. That fairness can be debated until the cows come home but it’s irrelevant. 
 

To draw a comparison away from race or gender etc, if people think you are annoying it doesn’t matter if you don’t see yourself that way. It’s other people who get to decide.

 

So basically do what you like to source the game without money going to JKR but don’t assume the trans community will label you an ally for that. It’s their call not yours.

[Zael]

I think when it comes to the term "ally" it helps if you don't think of it as a status you can attain or lose through your actions alone. "Ally" is a term given by a trans/non binary person to someone when they're seen as someone who supports them.

 

I think many of us, myself included, fall into the trap of thinking of the trans/NB community as a whole, where they all share one opinion and if you follow that opinion you're an ally, if you don't you're not. But that's not the case. Like I said earlier in this thread you can buy this game and still be considered an ally by a trans friend of yours. Others might feel very hurt and that status you hold might be in jeopardy.

 

It just depends on your relationship. I think on the Internet where most people don't know you, say Resetera for example, if you buy the game you won't be considered an ally by them but at the same time could still be considered an ally by your close personal trans friend. The opinion of both groups in that example are valid.

[ZOK]

1 hour ago, Spacehost said:

It's just a hazard of doing a sort of Victoriana/ Edwardiana/ early 20th century story, it's going to be wall to wall poachers and strange people in wooden caravans living at the edge of town.

 

I grew up with a lot of old Just William stories and Danny Champion of the World/ Famous Five/ Hardy Boys type stuff, and I greatly overestimated the amount of times poachers, tickling trout, quicksand and liquorice water would come up in later life.

Don’t forget horse hair & raisins.

[Rex Grossman]

Just now, ZOK said:

Don’t forget horse hair & raisins.

That’s the pub in Harry Potter isn’t it? The Horse Hair & Raisins?

[JPickford]

1 minute ago, ZOK said:

Don’t forget horse hair & raisins.

 

Ha!  I remember being so fascinated by that.  Wonderful book.

[Gabe]

3 minutes ago, PK said:

 

Well the main thrust of your question seemed to be "but where does it end?!?!?!" so i thought I'd answer a more relevant one. Of course buying the game doesn't exclude you from being an ally of trans people forever. But it's not the act of an ally.

 

 

And your position on buying it secondhand suggests you're missing the point, which is not to never read, listen to, play, draw, or imagine anything Harry Potter related ever again. The point is that an ally of a harassed and marginalised group should not fund somebody who spends her time actively encouraging the further harassment and marginalisation of that group. The cake isn't the issue, it's the repugnant dickhead of a baker who's the problem, so don't give her any money.

I suppose distilling it to 'where does it end' is perhaps how I've articulated it, because it is more of people allowances for action X (people who work at the studio on the game), why not also for action Y (people who otherwise do a lot of good but want the game). And I'm probably articulating this badly too.

 

The point about secondhand stands though I think - and this is just my view. I get what you say about funding Rowling, but many accept that the money from this game will have absolutely no impact on what she does (she's done fine spreading hate for free via twitter, another few million here makes no difference.)

 

So it is a principled stance to me, the sending of a message that says I don't want to be seen to support her (this doesn't have to mean financially) in any way, and I think buying the game secondhand (or pirating it) still says that 'my love of what she has created still trumps my desire to deny myself it completely'.

 

I don't know if any others would see it that way, I accept that, but I guess I think taking a stand needs to mean something and if you get to play the game without the direct guilt of buying it new, I think that diminishes it. YMMV, of course. 

[deerokus]

1 hour ago, Mallet said:

The whole killing 100s of npcs was something I found really jarring in Uncharted. 

I understand why folk say that but when they dialled it down in 4 and focused it more on the characters it really made that game worse for me. Those games are daft shooters, pretending it is something it isn't is just daft.

[Gabe]

5 minutes ago, Rex Grossman said:

It’s trans people who get to decide who is an ally. It’s irrelevant how anyone else considers themselves.

 

There have been some gay women complaining that they are no longer seen as allies because they don’t have sexual relationships with trans women and that this unfair. That fairness can be debated until the cows come home but it’s irrelevant. 
 

To draw a comparison away from race or gender etc, if people think you are annoying it doesn’t matter if you don’t see yourself that way. It’s other people who get to decide.

 

So basically do what you like to source the game without money going to JKR but don’t assume the trans community will label you an ally for that. It’s their call not yours.

Well I did say I know my view is irrelevant. I still am interested in that discussion though because I think this is an important issue, so thank you and @Zaelfor your replies.

 

I think the point about considering it a status to gain or lose a good one. I mean, obviously just doing good stuff without wanting a label is the *most* important thing.

[PK]

Just now, Gabe said:

I suppose distilling it to 'where does it end' is perhaps how I've articulated it, because it is more of people allowances for action X (people who work at the studio on the game), why not also for action Y (people who otherwise do a lot of good but want the game). And I'm probably articulating this badly too.

 

Yes sorry, the tone of my reply wasn't particularly helpful. We disagree about elements of this but there's no need for me to be a twat about it.

 

And I take your points about 'ally' not being a particularly useful term to throw around as a sort of blanket categorisation @Zael& @Rex Grossman. I suppose I simply mean "Somebody who cares about the rights of trans people to a peaceful life"

[Spacehost]

14 minutes ago, ZOK said:

Don’t forget horse hair & raisins.

Who doesn't know about horse hair & raisins?

[JPickford]

3 minutes ago, Spacehost said:

Who doesn't know about horse hair & raisins?

Pheasants.

[DennyDifferent]

1 hour ago, JPickford said:

 

Ha!  I remember being so fascinated by that.  Wonderful book.

 

I mean, while we're on the topic, Roald Dahl wasn't a great person... But I agree, it's a great book. The film with Jeremy Irons and Robbie Coltrane was good too.

[ryodi]

4 hours ago, Isaac said:

Murdering hundreds of faceless death eaters isn't really very Harry Potter.

 

The two Deathly Hallows games on the Wii were cover shooters.

[Unofficial Who]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

 

This is an open question (not aimed at you, @Unofficial Who) but I'm interested in this aspect, because to me - and I fully accept my view as a cis white man here is irrelevant as it's not my choice to make - it seems that a line is being drawn over this game in defining who is/isn't an ally. And I guess I think having such a black-and-white stance isn't helpful - again though, not my place to decide.

 

I'm reluctant to answer this because I feel like I've already answered this before. And I really don't want to make this thread more difficult to read for those who are just interested in the game.

 

But in short the reason why I'm skipping this game and why I've walked away from the HP universe in general is that there is a straight line. Essentially any money I spend on this franchise will in part fund a creator who is boosting the message that trans and nb people ought to not exist, or at least get back in the closet. This is highly personal to me, in part because I've witnessed first hand the pain and difficulty this has caused some of my friends and because I feel that this is part of a strategy to ultimately roll back lgbtq rights.

 

I've also spoken about the flaw in this argument. If spending money on the franchise puts money into Ms Rowling's pockets to enable her to boost anti-trans voice I have to concede it's also enabled her to save the lives of 500 plus women and their families from the Taliban.

 

As for the people working on it, as I said earlier it's a tougher call. When they started on this project it was likely before JK began her anti trans support in earnest. 

 

And as for people buying it now I can confidently state that the majority of people buying and enjoying the game are unaware of her support for anti trans voices.

 

I have my own view on whether or not it's moral for me to buy the game, I don't think it is if I want to be able to look my trans friends in the eye. I don't think you can call yourself a trans ally if you buy the game. I've characterised this viewpoint of mine several times as narrow and lacking nuance and have pointed out at least one or two things I could be called out on which is fair enough.

 

I think that trans and nb people are sidelined to the point where I think the majority view is that they shouldn't let it bother them in much the same way that gay men were told 13 years ago that they shouldn't worry about OSC profiting from Shadow Complex. There seems to be a lot more heat around this game, probably because it's based on a much loved classic.

 

I think someone further up bought up the issue of trans and nb people being a sort of amorphous blob with a universal viewpoint. I've stated a few times in the thread that I know a few who would judge anyone buying it new or second hand. I'm pretty sure most don't give a fuck, they just try not to think of JK anymore. I know at least one nb person who is buying this on launch day and for that person I'm hoping the game is excellent and gives them the return to their childhood they seek without breaking their heart.

 

2 hours ago, Gabe said:

This isn't trying to find a way for people to 'defend' buying the game or defending Rowling, it's more a slant on the separation of art & artist, which I don't think has ever involved such a person whilst still culturally relevant in the here and now (given that for many such incidences the awful things they've done only comes out once they've died) and I'm trying (badly) to articulate that this feels like a really unique situation.

 

I think this is the crux of the matter. I've had life experiences that have quite frankly stunted my ability to be as adult and objective about this as others. I see it in black and white while understanding that in this matter there are many shades I just can't see.

 

I can't see anyone putting money almost directly into Rowling's pocket as an ally. ymmv. Hell, even many of my progressive friends will be buying this day one and thinking I'm being stupid or acting "very Catholic" in even taking into account her activities. And quite frankly if on Feb 10 I decided to exercise my freedom to restate all this again most of you here would be well within your rights to reply with "um? Fuck off?"

 

Anyway, thanks again for the question @Gabe. I plan not to post / repost here anything else unless something big happens (if there's a subversive plot twist like Spec Ops The Line, or if it's revealed ALL of JK's profits are going to anti trans causes or if something really silly ends up in game like the cannon plot thing of wizards shitting their pants and magicking the shit away, seriously a canon thing.)

 

I've said, reposted and repeated my views on this to the point where even I'm sick of hearing them.

 

Enjoy your game. Hope it's decent.

[catinthehat]

2 hours ago, Gabe said:

Feels like having your cake and eating it.

 

That's the dream though, isn't it?  You say it like it's a bad thing.

 

 

[Broker]

I always find the “don’t say things I don’t want to hear” attitude in threads really interesting. I’m definitely guilty of both derailing threads and complaining when people do, but I think it’s important to recognise what we’re doing and why. Fundamentally, you can buy this game, but doing so is an act which puts your own enjoyment of media above supporting an oppressed community. You can bet that when Zelda comes out I’ll be buying it, even though I know that what I’m doing there is in some way supporting an oppressive dictatorship. That’s really depressing, but I’m going to do it because I love Zelda. I’m choosing my own comfort and entertainment over my values. But if someone points that out, I’ll try not to justify it. It’s a negative thing I’m doing for my own comfort. 

[macosx]

Should be a lot of second hand about if you don’t want to put your coins in jkr’s pocket, games no.1 on all the stores on all the formats. 

[Mr.Crowley]

On 02/02/2023 at 09:21, Uzi said:

Ew who goes on neogaf

The people who are comfortable playing Hogwarts Legacy?

[Gabe]

1 hour ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

I'm reluctant to answer this because I feel like I've already answered this before. And I really don't want to make this thread more difficult to read for those who are just interested in the game.

 

But in short the reason why I'm skipping this game and why I've walked away from the HP universe in general is that there is a straight line. Essentially any money I spend on this franchise will in part fund a creator who is boosting the message that trans and nb people ought to not exist, or at least get back in the closet. This is highly personal to me, in part because I've witnessed first hand the pain and difficulty this has caused some of my friends and because I feel that this is part of a strategy to ultimately roll back lgbtq rights.

 

I've also spoken about the flaw in this argument. If spending money on the franchise puts money into Ms Rowling's pockets to enable her to boost anti-trans voice I have to concede it's also enabled her to save the lives of 500 plus women and their families from the Taliban.

 

As for the people working on it, as I said earlier it's a tougher call. When they started on this project it was likely before JK began her anti trans support in earnest. 

 

And as for people buying it now I can confidently state that the majority of people buying and enjoying the game are unaware of her support for anti trans voices.

 

I have my own view on whether or not it's moral for me to buy the game, I don't think it is if I want to be able to look my trans friends in the eye. I don't think you can call yourself a trans ally if you buy the game. I've characterised this viewpoint of mine several times as narrow and lacking nuance and have pointed out at least one or two things I could be called out on which is fair enough.

 

I think that trans and nb people are sidelined to the point where I think the majority view is that they shouldn't let it bother them in much the same way that gay men were told 13 years ago that they shouldn't worry about OSC profiting from Shadow Complex. There seems to be a lot more heat around this game, probably because it's based on a much loved classic.

 

I think someone further up bought up the issue of trans and nb people being a sort of amorphous blob with a universal viewpoint. I've stated a few times in the thread that I know a few who would judge anyone buying it new or second hand. I'm pretty sure most don't give a fuck, they just try not to think of JK anymore. I know at least one nb person who is buying this on launch day and for that person I'm hoping the game is excellent and gives them the return to their childhood they seek without breaking their heart.

 

 

I think this is the crux of the matter. I've had life experiences that have quite frankly stunted my ability to be as adult and objective about this as others. I see it in black and white while understanding that in this matter there are many shades I just can't see.

 

I can't see anyone putting money almost directly into Rowling's pocket as an ally. ymmv. Hell, even many of my progressive friends will be buying this day one and thinking I'm being stupid or acting "very Catholic" in even taking into account her activities. And quite frankly if on Feb 10 I decided to exercise my freedom to restate all this again most of you here would be well within your rights to reply with "um? Fuck off?"

 

Anyway, thanks again for the question @Gabe. I plan not to post / repost here anything else unless something big happens (if there's a subversive plot twist like Spec Ops The Line, or if it's revealed ALL of JK's profits are going to anti trans causes or if something really silly ends up in game like the cannon plot thing of wizards shitting their pants and magicking the shit away, seriously a canon thing.)

 

I've said, reposted and repeated my views on this to the point where even I'm sick of hearing them.

 

Enjoy your game. Hope it's decent.

I'll respond to this more fully later, because there are some interesting points (though I understand if you do wish to duck out of the thread as you say), but on that last line - I have no interest in this nor any love or attachment to HP generally (despite it playing a fairly central role at the start of the relationship with my now-ex.)

 

I also think Rowling's views are deplorable, which I think I've made clear previously (but perhaps not clear enough!)

[Lying Cat]

I feel so awful. Every time somebody says "JKR" I process it as @JPL and he doesn't deserve it.

[Jamie John]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread as it moves too fast for me, but if anyone, like I was, is looking to educate themselves on JKR's attitude towards trans people, then Glamour.com, of all places, provides quite a comprehensive rundown of what she has said and done. I found it pretty illuminating for someone like me who didn't know that much about the history of her views previously.

[jonny_rat]

You're not going to find any both-sidesism in it, but I do like to come back to Laurie Penny's long read on the subject every now and then because it shows the history of the debate in this country and elsewhere.

 

https://pennyred.medium.com/terf-wars-why-transphobia-has-no-place-in-feminism-60d3156ad06e

 

[ZOK]

35 minutes ago, jonny_rat said:

You're not going to find any both-sidesism in it, but I do like to come back to Laurie Penny's long read on the subject every now and then because it shows the history of the debate in this country and elsewhere.

 

https://pennyred.medium.com/terf-wars-why-transphobia-has-no-place-in-feminism-60d3156ad06e

 

Yes, this is one of the best pieces I think I ever read on the subject, and coming back to it now it’s astonishing to think how much worse things are than when she wrote it.

[deerokus]

I'd also recommend Shon Faye's book, just called The Transgender Issue, for a broader understanding of what is going on.

[dizogg]

I’ve succumbed to FOMO and preordered the deluxe edition! The thought of exploring Hogwarts in its entirety is too much to pass up! 
 

Ordered from Shopto, any idea if they/them (lol) deliver before release date?

[Dusted]

22 minutes ago, dizogg said:

I’ve succumbed to FOMO and preordered the deluxe edition! The thought of exploring Hogwarts in its entirety is too much to pass up! 
 

Ordered from Shopto, any idea if they/them (lol) deliver before release date?

 

Are you never not a trolling cunt?