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Hogwarts Legacy - TERF war


Captain Kelsten
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I've said this before, but for me it's less a case of "don't fund the bad guy", and more "is my enjoyment of this tainted by association?".

 

It's why I can still watch and enjoy episodes of Father Ted, but wouldn't have gone to see Pope Ted. I don't seek out and listen to any Michael Jackson, but I still sit and play a Ubisoft game. There may be a running connection there involving authorship, responsibility, time, and nostalgia, but the end product is more or less the same - if my brain goes on the wonk at the thought of watching, listening or playing, then there's the line.

 

Is that a defence? Not really. I think it's a detachment, if anything. Eddie Izzard had a routine in one of her old shows where she talked about "passive" research - "I watch a programme about sharks, and now I know about sharks". And I think that's sort of where I am. If enough shit flies, things will start to stink, and never be clean again.

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I do wonder though, how close to the product do people like JKR need to be before people decided not to buy it? If Hogwarts Legacy was somehow JKR's indie product, and she'd stated that all proceeds would directly fund a campaign against trans rights, would your only consideration remain the quality of the game in isolation?

 

I do agree with Broker that there is no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism, and almost any purchase will be encouraging some kind of dodgy practice, but I think people like Rowling are arguably more problematic as they're not just part of a horrible status quo, they're actively involved in making it worse.

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3 hours ago, Broker said:

I struggle with the voting with your wallet thing. I try not to think too hard about where my money is going because there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism.

 

Nailed it. We are all complict (we have no choice) and this is just an argument about how visible the suffering we support is.

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31 minutes ago, Festoon said:

Aside from all this,

 

The main character in Terf War seems to walk really slowly and like they shit their pants - that's a problem surely?

 

Mustn't have yet learned the spell to magic it away. 

 

I wish I were joking, but it is actually canon in JKR's writing that wizards would soil themselves then use magic to disappear it. 

 

The woman is truly not well. 

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9 minutes ago, jonathanhoey said:

 

Mustn't have yet learned the spell to magic it away. 

 

I wish I were joking, but it is actually canon in JKR's writing that wizards would soil themselves then use magic to disappear it. 

 

The woman is truly not well. 

 

Well, it's canon in the sense that she said it afterwards, like the Dumbledore gay thing.

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1 hour ago, Mogster said:

I do wonder though, how close to the product do people like JKR need to be before people decided not to buy it? If Hogwarts Legacy was somehow JKR's indie product, and she'd stated that all proceeds would directly fund a campaign against trans rights, would your only consideration remain the quality of the game in isolation?

 

I do agree with Broker that there is no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism, and almost any purchase will be encouraging some kind of dodgy practice, but I think people like Rowling are arguably more problematic as they're not just part of a horrible status quo, they're actively involved in making it worse.

 

As always the line is the question right?

 

As per broker's statement what does money I spend on phones, or big publisher games, or anything really end up doing. I'm not all that happy about how Google or Apple or MS or Facebook or Amazon or anyone are shaping our world. It has been transformed but at what cost? I'd argue in some ways they've done more harm to the fabric of society than any individual. It is thier platforms and the choices they have made over decades that have shaped the way views have been exposed and amplified. Does anyone even know JKR is a trans-phobe if Twitter isn't a thing? If it and others hadn't normalised and enabled right wing cunts? And yet, when offered a choice I'm on their services or buying (some of) their products.

 

Can I be happy SpaceX are doing well whilst any of that reflects onto the massive man child that is Elon Musk. Can I buy a Tesla?

 

I think it's so so much easier to choose when you can get beyond "it's just capitalism", or away from large companies and down to individuals.

 

I'm not really going to say good or bad to.buying this stuff. It's an individual's choice.

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6 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

Can I be happy SpaceX are doing well whilst any of that reflects onto the massive man child that is Elon Musk. Can I buy a Tesla?

In my mind it's not the same situation. Elon Musk, for all his many faults, is not trying to spread hate and deny the existence of a marginalised group. He's also not as intrinsically linked to rockets and electric cars as Rowling is to Harry Potter. I'd rather he wasn't involved at all, but here we are.

 

Anyway, it's better to do something rather than nothing, right? I've certainly thrown away my share of recyclable goods, so does that mean I shouldn't bother recycling anything? 

 

11 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

As per broker's statement what does money I spend on phones, or big publisher games, or anything really end up doing. I'm not all that happy about how Google or Apple or MS or Facebook or Amazon or anyone are shaping our world. It has been transformed but at what cost? I'd argue in some ways they've done more harm to the fabric of society than any individual. It is thier platforms and the choices they have made over decades that have shaped the way views have been exposed and amplified. Does anyone even know JKR is a trans-phobe if Twitter isn't a thing? If it and others hadn't normalised and enabled right wing cunts? And yet, when offered a choice I'm on their services or buying (some of) their products.

Big business has done a huge amount of damage, and continues to do so, but it's quite hard to go through life without using products linked to Google, Apple or Microsoft. Not buying a videogame however is very easy indeed.

 

Twitter has enabled the rapid spread of all sorts of hateful views and misinformation, including Rowling's, but responsibility for her views are still very much on her and her alone. If I leave my door unlocked and my house gets burgled, it's still the burglar at fault no matter how easy I made it for them.

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1 minute ago, Mogster said:

Big business has done a huge amount of damage, and continues to do so, but it's quite hard to go through life without using products linked to Google, Apple or Microsoft. Not buying a videogame however is very easy indeed.

 

I agree. I also don't really like my own "what-about-ism" here. I just struggle with what I (maybe unfairly) feel is judgement/pressure against those who suggest they will be buying something like this. I don't think that makes them bad and want them to keep talking here rather than being discouraged by the general consensus.

 

Not buying a single game is indeed pretty easy. So long as it's not a game you're interested in. I wonder what happens when something crops up for a developer/publisher this forum cares deeply for. If the NoA thing got to the scale of Ubisoft/Activision-Blizzard maybe. I mean I think even that case is lop-sided, both a little here and in the wider gaming audience. Ubisoft have basically a hard pass for many but I think Blizzard in particular are still getting a bit of a soft touch. Or if Sony had tried to stay out of the US abortion law statements (as it looked like they might for a while).

 

Anyway. Game looks pretty average and not in a space I'm interested in so an easy one for me.

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4 hours ago, Broker said:

I struggle with the voting with your wallet thing. I try not to think too hard about where my money is going because there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism and I’m constantly funding awful things just by being alive and existing. My technology, clothes, food etc are all produced in deeply unethical ways and there’s very little I can do about it whilst still being able to feed my kids and carve out time I enjoy. Also I fundamentally don’t believe that it works or has any impact what I decide to do with my tiny pittance. 

 

However I do think that it’s much harder to ignore when there’s a single repulsive person attached to it. I’m not paying to see Kevin Spacey movies anymore, and I feel the same about JKR. I was just the right age for HP and grew up with those books. Despite finding them to be quite poorly written when as an adult I read them to my kids, I have a lot of residual affection for the world and characters that’s hard to shake. But also I’m literally handing money to someone who is filling the world with hate and I can’t stomach that.

 

Might pirate that new book, it seems like it would be a fascinating insight into the kind of someone who is losing their grip on reality. 

Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
 

Just because you are a cog in the capitalist machine doesn’t make the efforts null and void.

 

My money is also going to end up funding things I am opposed to but that doesn’t want to still try to be better.

 

I loved SNK and the games they make, now I actively boycott them to avoid giving money to Saudi Arabia. I won’t be watching a second of the FIFA World Cup even though it is the first one Wales has qualified for in my lifetime (who knows if they will ever qualify again).

 

I’m not perfect either, I know of the many evils in the sport of football but I can’t completely walk away from football because I can’t walk away from the team I was raised to support. 
 

We can’t be perfectly virtuous but we can try to do more. The only thing worse than evil is allowing evil to go unopposed.

 

We must be better.

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2 minutes ago, Dig Dug said:

I won’t be watching a second of the FIFA World Cup even though it is the first one Wales has qualified for in my lifetime (who knows if they will ever qualify again).

 

Can't you just watch the Wales games but spend at least an equal amount of timing raising awareness of the horrible things in Qatar?

Surely just 'not watching' achieves nothing. 

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28 minutes ago, Rex Grossman said:

 

Can't you just watch the Wales games but spend at least an equal amount of timing raising awareness of the horrible things in Qatar?

Surely just 'not watching' achieves nothing. 

The big money in the sport these days comes from broadcasting rights deals. Businesses pay millions to advertise because of the number of eyes on each televised game. Streaming sites are everywhere and many people pirate but it has not harmed the value of football as a platform for advertising and, in Qatar’s case, sportswashing.

 

Not watching IS the morally correct thing to do. Even if you invest no money into the World Cup the additional pair of eyes on the broadcast justifies the entire effort made to have it be hosted in Qatar.

 

To use a pro wrestling analogy, Vince McMahon was able to buy WCW for peanuts 20 years ago because the company had lost their television. No TV means no visibility which means no value. The only way to devalue the World Cup is to not watch it.

 

And please none of his “why not do X” arguments if I roll my eyes anymore they will unscrew from my head. If I’m making a point of telling people I refuse to watch it then I am also going to make the point as to why I am not watching it and why maybe other people shouldn’t either. I have little power or control over the direction of the world but I still have enough individual choice to assert my own agency.

 

Try harder next time.

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1 hour ago, thesnwmn said:

Can I be happy SpaceX are doing well whilst any of that reflects onto the massive man child that is Elon Musk. Can I buy a Tesla?

 

 

48 minutes ago, Mogster said:

In my mind it's not the same situation. Elon Musk, for all his many faults, is not trying to spread hate and deny the existence of a marginalised group. 

 

 

Um...he's not great.....

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Unofficial Who said:

Um...he's not great.....

100% agreed, but it's still not the same. I'd read that tweet as being "anti-woke" dickishness rather than an attack on black, Ukrainian or transgender people. Rowling is literally trying to deny trans people their very existence.

 

Musk is also not the one designing rockets or electric cars, while Harry Potter is entirely the creation of JK Rowling. I could totally understand someone not wanting anything to do with SpaceX or Tesla due to Musk; he's certainly part of the reason I wouldn't pick a Tesla as my first choice, but for me personally he's not on the same level.

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1 hour ago, Festoon said:

 

Well, it's canon in the sense that she said it afterwards, like the Dumbledore gay thing.

 

Well ok, the plumbing thing is via Pottermore rather than the actual books. It's canon EU at least. 

 

As for Musk, it's not just a one-off edgelord joke thing, he's pretty consistently anti-trans too. Not coincidentally, his wife left him for a trans woman, and one of his children, who is trans, is in the process of estranging themselves from him. 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Dig Dug said:

The big money in the sport these days comes from broadcasting rights deals. Businesses pay millions to advertise because of the number of eyes on each televised game. Streaming sites are everywhere and many people pirate but it has not harmed the value of football as a platform for advertising and, in Qatar’s case, sportswashing.

 

Not watching IS the morally correct thing to do. Even if you invest no money into the World Cup the additional pair of eyes on the broadcast justifies the entire effort made to have it be hosted in Qatar.

 

To use a pro wrestling analogy, Vince McMahon was able to buy WCW for peanuts 20 years ago because the company had lost their television. No TV means no visibility which means no value. The only way to devalue the World Cup is to not watch it.

 

And please none of his “why not do X” arguments if I roll my eyes anymore they will unscrew from my head. If I’m making a point of telling people I refuse to watch it then I am also going to make the point as to why I am not watching it and why maybe other people shouldn’t either. I have little power or control over the direction of the world but I still have enough individual choice to assert my own agency.

 

Try harder next time.

 

You patronising prick.

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This thread has

12 minutes ago, Mogster said:

Musk is also not the one designing rockets or electric cars, while Harry Potter is entirely the creation of JK Rowling.

 

I don't believe Rowling is personally creating the Hogwarts Legacy game either....

 

It's funny reading posts that state it's wrong for one franchise / owner etc but it's ok with another because he's not directly responsible or because he only every now and again makes a comment.... It seem's like double standards to me. Like I understand people not wanting to acknowledge or simply just ignoring the issues because they want to enjoy something that person has a hand in producing or creating but the oh but he's ok for doing the same thing but she's not is wrong surely? It can't be one rule for her and one for him can it?

 

Just to further point out the issues with Musk -

 

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/elon-musk-twitter-terrible-things-hes-said-and-done

 

So he may not be the same in that he might not be so vocal on his dislike for people with different coloured skin or people's gender but there are quite a few issues on that list that should make you sit up and think hang on he's on the same level if not worse (we only need to consider there is another law suit going against Tesla in the US over racism despite them having already been pulled up on it previously).

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15 minutes ago, jonathanhoey said:

As for Musk, it's not just a one-off edgelord joke thing, he's pretty consistently anti-trans too. Not coincidentally, his wife left him for a trans woman, and one of his children, who is trans, is in the process of estranging themselves from him. 

I didn't realise that, but in that case he is indeed worse than I thought. Hopefully the fact I wasn't aware means he's not been as influential with his hate than Rowling at least. The UK seems far more eager to follow people down that particular hole for some reason.

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16 minutes ago, Mogster said:

100% agreed, but it's still not the same. I'd read that tweet as being "anti-woke" dickishness rather than an attack on black, Ukrainian or transgender people. Rowling is literally trying to deny trans people their very existence.

 

Musk is also not the one designing rockets or electric cars, while Harry Potter is entirely the creation of JK Rowling. I could totally understand someone not wanting anything to do with SpaceX or Tesla due to Musk; he's certainly part of the reason I wouldn't pick a Tesla as my first choice, but for me personally he's not on the same level.

 

Rowling isn't writing, developing, testing or even publicising this game is she?

 

I realise I'm being a bit of a dick here. It's a very very blurry line to me.

 

I agree there is a difference between Rowling and Musk but why really? I suspect Musk is just slightly better in realising that maybe some specific things shouldn't be said quite so directly (attack the messaging and woke-ness, not the specific topics). But really he's simply proof that you can be rich enough or buy enough good will from people who should maybe know better to get them to give you more leeway. I think if he wasn't the front-man for sending shit to space in such a cool way we'd be dumping on everything else he does much much harder.

 

* in these specific topics, he's clearing fucking terrible at letting his mouth do the thinking in public

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51 minutes ago, Captain Kelsten said:

THIS GAME LOOKS SHITE

 

But you can, as a fifth year Hogwarts student, murder and kill loads of people by burning them alive, slamming them off the ground or lightening attacking them, consequence-free. They should have called it Rittenhouse Legacy.

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4 minutes ago, Luseth said:

I don't believe Rowling is personally creating the Hogwarts Legacy game either....

 

Just now, thesnwmn said:

Rowling isn't writing, developing, testing or even publicising this game is she?

I knew this was coming. :D

 

My badly written point was that the entire Harry Potter universe is directly tied to Rowling. It's entirely a product of her views and imagination, and anything based on it is set in her world.

 

Musk may be CEO of SpaceX, but I don't think for a second that he had a hand in designing Starship, and obviously there's nothing intrinsically Musky about space exploration. I guess for me it's one example of a case where I can celebrate the achievements of those directly involved without thinking too hard about who's making money from it. It sucks that it's one of Musk's companies at the forefront of space technology, and I wish it was anyone else, but I still see SpaceX itself as something important and exciting. If it disappeared tomorrow it would be a big setback for spaceflight, while Hogwarts Legacy is just one videogame.

 

To me, personally, Rowling does seem to be worse than Musk, and certainly seems to have had more of an impact. I'm not trans, and don't personally know any trans people, but even for me Rowling's anti-trans comments seem to be almost constant. They also seem to have directly influenced her writing on at least one occasion.

 

That said, I would completely understand and even applaud anyone for wanting nothing to do with SpaceX or Tesla due to the association with Musk. I can't see myself ever buying a Tesla, partly due to Musk, but I do have a lot of love for SpaceX in spite of their CEO.

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3 minutes ago, Festoon said:

Game doesn't look great...

 

 

 

Incidentally that Wizarding World YouTube is a trashfire of randomness - it's like a franchise with no centre.

 

You get that this is a completely different game to the one in this thread right?

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2 hours ago, Mogster said:

I didn't realise that, but in that case he is indeed worse than I thought. Hopefully the fact I wasn't aware means he's not been as influential with his hate than Rowling at least. The UK seems far more eager to follow people down that particular hole for some reason.


That’s because we’re way more transphobic that most similar countries. 

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2 hours ago, Rex Grossman said:

 

You patronising prick.

Your argument is one of hypocrisy and you know it. Watching the World Cup is approval of Qatar, it is the one thing they want beyond all else. You’re a hypocrite if you watch it and criticise them at the same time, that’s a fact.

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