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Formula One 2021 - DRAMA - #Michael Messy


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25 minutes ago, Shimmyhill said:

 

I think we have to question if @Dudley has ever been seen in the same room as David Coulthard……

 

Ah, we're back to the "You don't slavishly agree with an entirely pro Mercedes being poor little put upon lambs position and thus you're a Red Bull fanboy" part of the conversation.

 

I do so enjoy those.

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16 minutes ago, GwiDan said:

I wonder if Max slowed down, saw Lewis wasn’t passing him, got confused and annoyed about it, and pressed the brake pedal to expedite things, like “come on I’m letting you past already”. 

 

I think this is exactly what has happened. The wiggle is a bit weird, but there is plenty of space to the left.  Lewis hasn't picked a side to pass on, and both are on the brakes.  Max seems to start to brake harder which causes the collision, but I think it's clear that...

Max wants Lewis past pre-DRS zone 

Lewis doesn't want to pass pre-DRS zone

Max doesn't want to go off line

Both could have avoided this, and had the FIA been clearer / more timely, none of this would have happened.

 

 

With basic telemetry is quite interesting.

Hamilton is catching with 30+ kph

Hamilton brakes first staying behind Max

Max then brakes and Hamilton continues to close, gets back on the brakes

Max wiggles a bit, Hamilton doesn't pick a side.

Max brakes more, Hamilton swerves out to the left, but it's too late.

 

 

 

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I don't think anyone's saying max didn;t brake, it's whether it was a brake *test* which is a term specifically for jumping on the achors when somone is tailing you very closely to try and cause a collision or to make themn brake while you get away.

 

And while Max (and RB, and Mercedes) were all in full shithouse mode, I don;t think that's what max did. He certainly braked and and was attempting to give-the-place-back-not-really (and apparently there is a rule where if you do that, you can;t take the place back within 2 corners - lewis got pinged for it v Kimi at Spa 2008, so the DRS Line mucking about was unneccesary from both drivers), buit it;s not a "brake test" as I;d define one.

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24 minutes ago, GwiDan said:

I wonder if Max slowed down, saw Lewis wasn’t passing him, got confused and annoyed about it, and pressed the brake pedal to expedite things, like “come on I’m letting you past already”. 

 

I think it was mainly Max:

 

1) Refusing to get completely off the racing line - why was Lewis the one expected to swerve out of his way, when really Max should just have moved right over (think it was Massa that also said it was universally agreed this was the case)

2) Wanting to let Lewis past him at a very specific point (ahead of DRS line)

3) Wanting to make sure Lewis slowed down as much as possible in the process (to increase the efficiency of #2)

 

A few small rule changes would iron a lot of this out - mainly around something like having to complete at least one sector behind somebody if you had to give them a place back maybe?

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3 minutes ago, RFT said:

(and apparently there is a rule where if you do that, you can;t take the place back within 2 corners - lewis got pinged for it v Kimi at Spa 2008, so the DRS Line mucking about was unneccesary from both drivers)

 

Interesting - why did this not apply when Lewis initially did take the place back then?

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17 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

Ah, we're back to the "You don't slavishly agree with an entirely pro Mercedes being poor little put upon lambs position and thus you're a Red Bull fanboy" part of the conversation.

 

I do so enjoy those.

 

No it was you blindly ignoring the evidence when called on it having stated that it wasnt said in the first place - you went full Coulthard so one can only assume you are on the RB payroll esp as someone who races and is fully aware of the rules but wants to complain about 3 issues with zero rules broken by Merc while defending 2 actually dangerous rule breaches by Max.

 

Deflect away as much as you want but at least own your mistakes even with your RB goggles on.

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36 minutes ago, Count Buffalos said:

They were both playing games with the DRS zone although Mad shouldn’t have been in the middle of the track if he wanted to make his intentions obvious.

 

Max will be Max*. He'll leave it to his opponent to make the move. Then you get what we saw yesterday. :ph34r:

 

14 minutes ago, Corranga said:

I think this is exactly what has happened. The wiggle is a bit weird, but there is plenty of space to the left.  Lewis hasn't picked a side to pass on, and both are on the brakes.  Max seems to start to brake harder which causes the collision, but I think it's clear that...

Max wants Lewis past pre-DRS zone 

Lewis doesn't want to pass pre-DRS zone

Max doesn't want to go off line

Both could have avoided this, and had the FIA been clearer / more timely, none of this would have happened.

 

 

With basic telemetry is quite interesting.

Hamilton is catching with 30+ kph

Hamilton brakes first staying behind Max

Max then brakes and Hamilton continues to close, gets back on the brakes

Max wiggles a bit, Hamilton doesn't pick a side.

Max brakes more, Hamilton swerves out to the left, but it's too late.

 

Quoted for truth.

 

Edit: * I'd love to see Max win this one, but purely as a Dutchman. He's got a primal attitude whilst Lewis plays the smart game.

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8 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

Interesting - why did this not apply when Lewis initially did take the place back then?

 

This is supposition, but I think the timeline is...

 

Max overtakes off restart 2 off the track, is judged a "bad" move by Masi.

 

RB are told to give the place back or get 5s penalty

 

Slow race to DRS line and ensuing Collision.

 

Max then gives the place back a few laps later, but does the rapid retake.

 

Stewards go "not a proper handback, have the 5s for your original infraction" (there's no other investigated but unresolved infraction from max im aware of - It wasn't for the collision- that the 5s could have come fromm so it must be that restart 2 move)

 

I think there's a message frm RB to Max that we didn;t hear but that said "the stewards have given us a 5s penalty for not giving the place back"

 

Max mishears or misinterprets this and gives the place up again.

 

RB message him: "you didn't have to do that"

 

Though by the end it seems fairly moot as Lewis would have blow past after max's tyres drop off and he loses 1.5s of pace at about lap 43.

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All this discussion on the one incident (I actually have sympathy for both sides here) which could easily have been avoided if Masi had just told Merc first he was going to be let past.

 

I think it was mentioned on Sky, Lewis probably assumed there was an incident as why would Max of all people all slow down to let him past.  Meanwhile Max has been told to let him go and is wondering what the fuck is guy this doing.

 

Could have all been avoided with soke decent communication.  Which seemed to be a bit of an issue with the F2 race.  Who was the race director for that?  Take a guess.

 

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14 minutes ago, Moodmon said:

All this discussion on the one incident (I actually have sympathy for both sides here) which could easily have been avoided if Masi had just told Merc first he was going to be let past.

 

I think it was mentioned on Sky, Lewis probably assumed there was an incident as why would Max of all people all slow down to let him past.  Meanwhile Max has been told to let him go and is wondering what the fuck is guy this doing.

 

Could have all been avoided with soke decent communication.  Which seemed to be a bit of an issue with the F2 race.  Who was the race director for that?  Take a guess.

 

 

I think this too, though Sky saying Lewis probably thought there was an incident was just their Hamilton bias showing.

If he thought there was an incident, he should have...

1. Looked at his steering wheel or trackside lights for a yellow flag

2. Asked on the radio

3. Pulled OUT from behind Max to aid his vision, not drive right up to the back of him

4. Back out and not get closer and closer to him

 

He was catching for long enough to know there wasn't an incident. I think simply, he didn't want to overtake pre DRS-zone, which is understandable.

 

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Given the recent glut of penalties for ignoring yellow flags that have been deployed for seconds, I don't think it's hard to work out why Lewis was initially cautious having not been informed of anything by his team/wheel.

 

Imagine Max had slowed as there was a person/obstacle on-track (and hence why he was still pretty much on the racing line rather than out of the way) and Lewis had just ripped past him....

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13 minutes ago, taurusnipple said:

Bottas deserves pain for nicking that podium. 

 

I actually felt sorry for him in the team picture sat next to a massive LEWIS P1 pitboard. Plenty of space for VB P3 on there. For once he did his job at the start and ran an ok race in the end.

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I think we can all agree at this point that anyone who supports Red Bull and/or Verstappen after all this is an unsavoury character who needs to take a long hard look at themselves. Hopefully Hamilton will win next weekend to right the wrongs of this season and we can move on to next season and hopefully Lando's era of domination.

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38 minutes ago, Corranga said:

 

I think this too, though Sky saying Lewis probably thought there was an incident was just their Hamilton bias showing.

If he thought there was an incident, he should have...

1. Looked at his steering wheel or trackside lights for a yellow flag

2. Asked on the radio

3. Pulled OUT from behind Max to aid his vision, not drive right up to the back of him

4. Back out and not get closer and closer to him

 

He was catching for long enough to know there wasn't an incident. I think simply, he didn't want to overtake pre DRS-zone, which is understandable.

 

 

Mate, those points are rubbish -

 

1. Hamilton avoided a penalty because they hadn’t shown flags or lights so is no doubt hyper aware esp as Max and Bottas got penalties for barely visible yellow flags.

2. Speak out loud and time how long it takes to ask the team if there is a reason for Max slowing / obstruction on the track and how long to get a response and see how much of that you get in the 5 seconds this happened in at 150mph

3. You never pull out behind a slowing car with no obv audio or visual reason to do so esp Verstappen - wait for them as good chance they will take you out if car failing, he moved about enough as it was and stayed on the racing line.

4. Back out of what? Max lifts and then brakes heavily (enough to drop 3 gears) for no reason and given no brake lights and all the points above why is Hamilton going to slam the anchors on?

 

The DRS point is mute, if Hamilton isnt aware Max is letting him past he isnt thinking of the DRS zone obv Max is and why he braked so hard as he wants th place back and is aware that’s his only chance.

 

Its really easy after the fact to throw all these wild theories but this has all happened in a moment at a high speed part of the track with one wreckless driver and another super aware of that fact - If Occon is the person ahead who has to let Hamilton past and Hamilton wasnt aware you can guarantee there wouldn’t have been any contact……

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11 minutes ago, Shimmyhill said:

3. You never pull out behind a slowing car with no obv audio or visual reason to do so esp Verstappen - wait for them as good chance they will take you out if car failing, he moved about enough as it was and stayed on the racing line.

 

This seems to be the key point. From hearing from ex drivers, it seems customary that if you have a car issue or you are deliberately slowing down you move to the side of the track (e.g. well away from the racing line). What you don't do is suddenly drive slowly in the middle of the track on the racing line. 

 

If you have any issue and want someone to pass you then you get off the racing line - you know, what they do all the time in qualifying and practice sessions. Max was just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. 

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20 minutes ago, SMD said:

I think we can all agree at this point that anyone who supports Red Bull and/or Verstappen after all this is an unsavoury character who needs to take a long hard look at themselves. Hopefully Hamilton will win next weekend to right the wrongs of this season and we can move on to next season and hopefully Lando's era of domination.

 

I think Max is an incredibly talented driver but he is doing his reputation no favours with his driving style this year. 

 

Hard racing is forcing another car off the track but staying on the track yourself. Deliberately going off the track just to stop someone from overtaking is properly bad sportsmanship and driving. And you know he is doing it deliberately since he has no problems keeping the car on the track on all occasions other than when someone is trying to pass him. Suddenly when that happens he seemingly loses all control of his car...every single time. 

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2 minutes ago, McCoy said:

 

This seems to be the key point. From hearing from ex drivers, it seems customary that if you have a car issue or you are deliberately slowing down you move to the side of the track (e.g. well away from the racing line). What you don't do is suddenly drive slowly in the middle of the track on the racing line. 

 

If you have any issue and want someone to pass you then you get off the racing line - you know, what they do all the time in qualifying and practice sessions. Max was just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. 


Which is what Max did in Bahrain at the start of the season but in a way in which he was never going to be able to overtake Hamilton afterwards. Slowing down on the racing line on a high speed blind corner is not the way to do it but RB told him to give the place back tactically and that’s what he did.

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55 minutes ago, rgraves said:

Given the recent glut of penalties for ignoring yellow flags that have been deployed for seconds, I don't think it's hard to work out why Lewis was initially cautious having not been informed of anything by his team/wheel.

 

Imagine Max had slowed as there was a person/obstacle on-track and Lewis had just ripped past him....

 

Yeah, I think ultimately you have half that and half "How slow do I have to go for you to actually pass me?" from someone who would reasonably have assumed Mercedes had been informed of that plan.

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3 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

Yeah, I think ultimately you have half that and half "How slow do I have to go for you to actually pass me?" from someone who would reasonably have assumed Mercedes had be informed of that plan.

 

For me it is all about not getting off the racing line. If you want to trundle around slowly, for whatever reason, you should get off the racing line. Trundling around slowly on the racing line is just asking for an incident to happen. 

 

Everytime anyone has ever had a puncture if you watch them head back to the pitlane it is always off the racing line. That's the issue here. 

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3 minutes ago, McCoy said:

 

For me it is all about not getting off the racing line. If you want to trundle around slowly, for whatever reason, you should get off the racing line. Trundling around slowly on the racing line is just asking for an incident to happen. 

 

Everytime anyone has ever had a puncture if you watch them head back to the pitlane it is always off the racing line. That's the issue here. 

 

To be fair he's not expecting to trundle, he's expecting to lift off 15mph and have the Mercedes flash past either side.  Thing is I don't think he's really online there, he's worse, he's bang in the middle.  It's really ultimately the reason I said from the start I'd be penalising him for it which in my blinkered Red Bull fanboy way I described as "Making sure he doesn't win the race".

 

Such a fanboy I am.

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It is interesting that for someone who idolised Senna to the point of basing his helmet design on him, Lewis is REALLY not happy about racing even a massively sanitised version of Senna.

 

Probably because he always imagined as a kid he'd be the Senna whereas in this battle he is absolutely the Prost.

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Just now, Dudley said:

It is interesting that for someone who idolised Senna, Lewis is REALLY not happy about racing even a massively sanitised version of Senna.

 

Probably because he always imagined as a kid he'd be the Senna whereas in this battle he is absolutely the Prost.


Lewis is surely Mansell here. 

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7 minutes ago, Dudley said:

It is interesting that for someone who idolised Senna to the point of basing his helmet design on him, Lewis is REALLY not happy about racing even a massively sanitised version of Senna.

 

Probably because he always imagined as a kid he'd be the Senna whereas in this battle he is absolutely the Prost.

 

 

Haha this is funny. And bang on. I'd swap massively for slightly mind.

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12 minutes ago, GwiDan said:


Lewis is surely Mansell here. 

 

Ah you're thinking 1991, I'm running the 2 years previously.  I was thinking Prost more as the vet who'd been there, seen that, done that.  Mansell was still trying to win title 1.

 

That seems to fit more with multi champion Hamilton.  Also Lewis whines a lot less.

 

6 minutes ago, mexos said:

 

 

Haha this is funny. And bang on. I'd swap massively for slightly mind.

 

We'll never really know, but I maintain Senna would have put Lewis in the wall on that turn 1 restart rather than dancing off the track.

 

I'm starting to realise how Senna's teammates won races :D

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