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Formula One 2021 - DRAMA - #Michael Messy


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11 minutes ago, morcs said:

So what actually are the rules about the lap 1 lunge?


No idea. Apparently Max was wronged because a dive bomb that forces the other driver off track is completely fine but Hamilton slowed down so the gap didn’t get any bigger when he cut the corner so it was fine.  Maybe this will all be clarified before the start of next season.

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27 minutes ago, ryodi said:

but Hamilton slowed down so the gap didn’t get any bigger when he cut the corner so it was fine.

 

I know this bit isn't right - as @jonathanhoey pointed out, the radio message we thought was about Hamilton not gaining time was actually about Max not gaining an advantage.

 

Also Max staying within the white lines seems to be quoted as part of it being legal, and there's definitely precedent for that being OK in countless past overtakes, where the driver on the inside is allowed to "claim the exit" so to speak.

 

It seems to be something like:

  • If a car gets "alongside" (with more devil in detail in that definition) on corner entry, then both drivers must leave a car's width for the other driver in the first part of the corner
  • but at some point (after the apex?) the inside car can squeeze and use full track width

 

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I think it is much more nuanced than that. It was quite interesting when Chandock showed Nico Rosberg his list of aggressive Max overtakes and Nico's reasoning behind which were fine and which weren't. It reinforces the need for a permanent panel of stewards which would bring more consistency to such decisions. 

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Job one. Redefine the rules. Lay down the new law - what is and isn’t acceptable in racing. Simplify.

 

Then the even tougher job. Work out a creative way to explain reasoning for decisions to the public so they can understand why some has / has not got a penalty.

 

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It does seem like these things get more complicated over time as folks work out how to exploit the rules.

 

Does anyone know about rugby? I have no idea what's going on in scrums these days even though I used to play, seems like another case where the rules are being exploited in a way that just confuses the audience.

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Doesn't surprise me. One of the most genuinely unpleasant by-products of this season has been the amplification of the social media tribal bullshit that Twitter/Meta/Whatever has been causing across the world in varying forms of life. F1-related Twitter is utterly poisonous these days.

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Before reading it I assumed some people had gone full conspiracy theory and thought he’d been paid to crash on purpose, but sounds like most of the abuse is on a “you shouldn’t have been racing hard that far back in the field” basis 🤪

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4 hours ago, ryodi said:


Hamilton slowed down so the gap didn’t get any bigger when he cut the corner so it was fine.  

 

4 hours ago, morcs said:

 

I know this bit isn't right - as @jonathanhoey pointed out, the radio message we thought was about Hamilton not gaining time was actually about Max not gaining an advantage.

 

 

I think both drivers and both teams expected Hamilton to be instructed to give the place back. 

 

Palmer went into this a bit in his analysis video for F1TV. Apparently the telemetry shows a big lift from Hamilton immediately after running over the corner - which he presumably did unprompted, hoping it would be enough to get away without investigation. 

 

At one point we also hear Mercedes telling Lewis "we're happy with the gap that you've reinstated" which I think is referring to the same thing. 

 

Masi tells Wheatley not once, but twice (in separate radio calls) that Max forced the position. 

 

I tried to upload a short clip to show the radio calls I mean, but it got killed by YouTube before it had even started processing. 

 

I'll have to settle for plain old text. These are in order they were played out on TV. 

 

 

(Incident happens)

 

  • MV to pit: "He has to give that back."

 

  • LH to Bono: "Pushed me off track."
  • Bono to LH: "Copy Lewis. We are happy with the gap that you've reinstated."

 

 

(Race Control announces No Investigation Necessary)

 


Jonathan Wheatley talking to Michael Masi: 

 

  • MM: "Go ahead Jonathan."
  • JW: "So we've seen it again. Max is ahead at the apex..."
  • MM: "Jonathan..."
  • JW: "...stays on the track, he's..."
  • MM: "Jonathan, he's forced him out there. That's why we asked him to give back all of the advantage..."
  • JW: "...Lewis has left the track and... oh you've told him to give back the advantage?"
  • MM: "...all the advantage has already been given back prior to the first lap ending."
  • JW: [long pause] Uh... not sure we agree, but understood."
  • MM: "No problems."

 

 

  • Pit to MV: "Okay Max, get your head down. No investigation on the shortcut, or the advantage that he's gained in terms of gap, so let's just get on with this and win on track."
  • MV to pit: "That is incredible. What are they doing here?"

 

 

Wheatley to Masi again: 

 

  • MM: "Go ahead."
  • JW: "We still don't understand it. That was a hard, aggressive pass by Max, but Max stayed fully on the track and he was ahead at the apex. He did everything right and stayed on the track...
  • MM: "Jonathan..."
  • JW: "...at some point the second car has to back out."
  • MM: "Jonathan, the stewards have reviewed it and determined that all of the lasting advantage was gained, A, and that Max forced that position there, so they've said that they have reviewed it but are not investigating it."

 

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14 hours ago, jonathanhoey said:

 

 

I think both drivers and both teams expected Hamilton to be instructed to give the place back. 

 

Palmer went into this a bit in his analysis video for F1TV. Apparently the telemetry shows a big lift from Hamilton immediately after running over the corner - which he presumably did unprompted, hoping it would be enough to get away without investigation. 

 

At one point we also hear Mercedes telling Lewis "we're happy with the gap that you've reinstated" which I think is referring to the same thing. 

 

Masi tells Wheatley not once, but twice (in separate radio calls) that Max forced the position. 

 

I tried to upload a short clip to show the radio calls I mean, but it got killed by YouTube before it had even started processing. 

 

I'll have to settle for plain old text. These are in order they were played out on TV. 

 

 

(Incident happens)

 

  • MV to pit: "He has to give that back."

 

  • LH to Bono: "Pushed me off track."
  • Bono to LH: "Copy Lewis. We are happy with the gap that you've reinstated."

 

 

(Race Control announces No Investigation Necessary)

 


Jonathan Wheatley talking to Michael Masi: 

 

  • MM: "Go ahead Jonathan."
  • JW: "So we've seen it again. Max is ahead at the apex..."
  • MM: "Jonathan..."
  • JW: "...stays on the track, he's..."
  • MM: "Jonathan, he's forced him out there. That's why we asked him to give back all of the advantage..."
  • JW: "...Lewis has left the track and... oh you've told him to give back the advantage?"
  • MM: "...all the advantage has already been given back prior to the first lap ending."
  • JW: [long pause] Uh... not sure we agree, but understood."
  • MM: "No problems."

 

 

  • Pit to MV: "Okay Max, get your head down. No investigation on the shortcut, or the advantage that he's gained in terms of gap, so let's just get on with this and win on track."
  • MV to pit: "That is incredible. What are they doing here?"

 

 

Wheatley to Masi again: 

 

  • MM: "Go ahead."
  • JW: "We still don't understand it. That was a hard, aggressive pass by Max, but Max stayed fully on the track and he was ahead at the apex. He did everything right and stayed on the track...
  • MM: "Jonathan..."
  • JW: "...at some point the second car has to back out."
  • MM: "Jonathan, the stewards have reviewed it and determined that all of the lasting advantage was gained, A, and that Max forced that position there, so they've said that they have reviewed it but are not investigating it."

 

 

I know the way Merc & RB come across on the radio is a bit whiney at times, but I find Masi so fucking condescending at times when he talks to them. He regularly just sounds like he's struggling to keep his head above the water when talking to them. 

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No-one generally comes out of those encounters looking good.

 

The difference though is it's the job of the Merc and RB people to get the best result for their team (And RB could be argued to have won the championship there and Saudi with their bamboozling of Masi) whereas Masi is supposed to be in charge and comes across as the worst kind of headmaster.

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32 minutes ago, morcs said:

 

I sort of get what you're saying but it did kind of force Lewis off the track, or do you mean he should have yielded sooner?

 

https://streamable.com/o4sy

 

"What about all these guys outbraking themselves at the first chicane? I mean Lewis messed up, Max... put a fucking wall there and they won't do it. Fuck me, guys. Fucking kindergarten stuff."

 

-Ricciardo, 2016 

 

No one's really saying put a wall in, but a lot of the ex-driver commentators always blame the tarmac runoff, and most of them specifically said of this incident that there should have been a gravel trap and Lewis should have backed out. 

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Is it too soon to start considering next season? 

I was watching a video last night asking "will Aston Martin dominate next season?" which went into all the staff they've poached from Merc/RB etc and all the money papa Stroll was pumping in and his ambition. Anyway, it got me thinking, what with the shift in emphasis to under floor downforce and heavily restricted aero rules, might we actually see more teams in the running for podiums and wins? I know that has been the stated goal of the changes, but it suddenly struck me that it might actually work, especially when you throw in the cost cap and new wind tunnel restrictions. What do we think? 

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47 minutes ago, jonathanhoey said:

No one's really saying put a wall in, but a lot of the ex-driver commentators always blame the tarmac runoff, and most of them specifically said of this incident that there should have been a gravel trap and Lewis should have backed out. 

 

If there was a wall there though would Max still have made the move, knowing there was a good chance they'd both end up cr0nched into each other and the wall?

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51 minutes ago, Blue said:

Is it too soon to start considering next season? 

I was watching a video last night asking "will Aston Martin dominate next season?" which went into all the staff they've poached from Merc/RB etc and all the money papa Stroll was pumping in and his ambition. Anyway, it got me thinking, what with the shift in emphasis to under floor downforce and heavily restricted aero rules, might we actually see more teams in the running for podiums and wins? I know that has been the stated goal of the changes, but it suddenly struck me that it might actually work, especially when you throw in the cost cap and new wind tunnel restrictions. What do we think? 


Vettel loves a bit of ground effect, given his success in those Red Bulls. 

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1 hour ago, morcs said:

 

I sort of get what you're saying but it did kind of force Lewis off the track, or do you mean he should have yielded sooner?

 

I don't accept he forced Lewis anywhere and he made the corner.  If that's not unacceptable I struggle to see what overtake is, especially in these difficult to overtake cars.  You'd see that move 100 times in any karting race.

 

Lewis left an absolute chasm on the inside there, partly because the gameplan for Mercedes was very sensibly to avoid racing Red Bull at all costs.

 

1 hour ago, jonathanhoey said:

No one's really saying put a wall in, but a lot of the ex-driver commentators always blame the tarmac runoff, and most of them specifically said of this incident that there should have been a gravel trap and Lewis should have backed out. 

 

If there was a wall there, Max makes the corner just fine.

 

Frankly Ricciardo there is basically just proving why he's not a world champion but Max (and Lewis) are. Lewis battled it knowing he had an out, Max dived in there at least partially because if he misjudged he had an out.

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