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Formula One 2021 - DRAMA - No refunds for you!


T Pot
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Actually would Max have run super wide if he’d not been hit? He’d already turned in from a shallow angle and had to leave space in the inside too.

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8 minutes ago, T Pot said:

 

And then give it a couple of years if Mazepin is ever fighting the midfield, and then he can become the new one! At least when he's up fighting amongst other cars people will have a legit reason to complain of drivers being run off the road. 

 

TBH if he is going to stick around (and let's face it he will like Stroll will) I would like to see him take the path to putting things right, taking responsibility for what he did, putting the work in to pay for his past deeds, changing his attitude on and off the track and becoming a positive voice for good in the paddock. 

 

% chance of that happening though?

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Just now, mexos said:

 

TBH if he is going to stick around (and let's face it he will like Stroll will) I would like to see him take the path to putting things right, taking responsibility for what he did, putting the work in to pay for his past deeds, changing his attitude on and off the track and becoming a positive voice for good in the paddock. 

 

% chance of that happening though?

 

I genuinely think that either 22 or 23 will see Gene Haas sell the team to Mazepins dad & we'll have team Russia or whatever they hell they want to call it. 

 

In terms of your stuff above, at least for racecraft, I think 0% he will change. It's how he races & defends. Run people off the road. You saw it plenty from him in F2. 

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47 minutes ago, T Pot said:

 

I genuinely think that either 22 or 23 will see Gene Haas sell the team to Mazepins dad & we'll have team Russia or whatever they hell they want to call it. 

 

 

image.png.d1e2ffffb9995180581b5326cdd58256.png

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1 hour ago, T Pot said:

 

I genuinely think that either 22 or 23 will see Gene Haas sell the team to Mazepins dad & we'll have team Russia or whatever they hell they want to call it. 

 

Oh yeah, Team Murica as a brand is dead and buried. What American company will sponsor them now after pretty much turning the car into a Russian flag.

 

Right now Hass is almost in that weird period where a product like a detergent has 'soon to be' on the packaging, along with the a small new logo. We all know the change is coming. Because it's been slowly leaked to us. 

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HAAS could be holding out for a manufacturer to buy out his team. Depending on how the new regulations work and what’s agreed for the new engine formula the team could be an attractive purchase for someone wanting to join the grid who doesn’t want to pay the $200m joining fee.

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2 hours ago, Corranga said:

So, I went on holiday on Friday and missed everything, got back on Monday evening, and was kindly instructed by @jonathanhoey to at least watch lap 1 prior to our Monday Night GT Sport racing. Glad I did, thanks!

 

Anyway, just caught up, lots of great content here, so huge multi-quote response by me because I think there has been lots of interesting stuff posted, and perhaps because I feel left out, having missed, live, on possibly the most controversial Grand Prix in 10 years...

(but hopefully not due to some self-importance that I don't realise I have..?)

 

 

This livery is amazing, but beyond that, the care looks great, if a little Indy Car like, and the huge wheels are stupid. 

What no one else said (I think), is of course that this is what F1/FIA/whoever did the design thinks the cars will look like based on the rules they have written. 

In true F1 style, they will all be hideously ugly beasts when the teams find the rules they can bend for half a tenth, but in the process removing the sleek and simple intent.

 

 

I don't think he understeered so much as carried so much speed (enabling him to get along side) that he wouldn't have made the corner, save for Max not being there.

 

 

This really annoyed me about the whole F1 team.  I understand 'entertainment' and 'drama' but all of them trying to position a 10 second penalty as a mountain Lewis had to climb 1 race after Red Bull and Mercedes lapped the entire field is laughable.

 

 

 

This, and others saying that Lewis was simply making the point that Max's aggressive driving won't stick any more, says more to me about Lewis than Max.

So, basically half of us are saying that Lewis driving into a known wedge at 180mph, and not backing out of it is fine, the other half that it's dangerous (which it is...)

The way I see it, Max was ahead and had to make the corner.  Lewis knew this, and should have been travelling slower to make the corner, as if he could make the corner from a position so close to the inside, they'd all do that, every lap.

For me, the really interesting part is that Max did leave him space, twice. He didn't actually make a dirty move, as he's done in the past.

When he squeezed him to the wall, and again in the corner, and more than the mandated 1 car width when Lewis, who surely knew that coming at such an acute angle required him to slow down more, made the contact.  I also believe the penalty was light.

 

The second (first...) point layten makes though is key, and why I don't like Max (and perhaps used to not like Vettel, see later).  Red Bull simply creates an echo chamber repeating that they are the best, the fastest, the ones who are always right.  Max is fast, very fast, perhaps even faster than Lewis is on his best days, and Lewis is probably the best we've ever seen / almost certainly is within his time.  The whole Red Bull ecosystem seems to be massively toxic, and they just shrug it off.

I mentioned before Red Bull lapping up being "the quickest car" at any given point while Merc sit back and let them look like fools when they trounce them.  It's just this attitude turned up to 10.

 

 

The other 2 didn't squeeze Lewis as they both knew it wasn't their race to have.  LeClerc was clearly over the moon with 2nd, they thought they were no where, Norris has shown many times in the past that he's not up for racing clearly faster Merc's, instead preserving his own race pace against McLaren's rivals.

Not that it really matters, but despite not really defending the position, LeClerc still didn't make the corner.

 

 

This is amazing.  Vettel was one of the few drivers I really disliked when at Red Bull, as a lifetime Ferrari fan, I was pretty gutted when he signed for us, but he changed with Ferrari.  He became more open in interviews, and more relaxed.  He was happy to point out that he didn't talk about his personal life, and even to admit fault, or joint responsibility on mistakes, and even criticise Ferrari, something that historically was a massive no.  With the additional freedom at Aston Martin, this seems to be continuing and it's great to watch.

 

 

Not delving too much into this thread, personally I think penalising for repairing a car under a red flag is a good idea, and should be implemented, but needs a LOT of thought and perhaps technology (for example, FIA scans each car and dictates what must be repaired, or, rally style, gives a set amount of time for repairs, but on F1 level,  for example, another conversation for another day)

Right now, there isn't a perfect solution, so getting the car fixed is the easiest and safest route, no one wants to see another accident due to a team cutting corners on repairs.

BUT... Isn't the thing here simply that Merc changed the tyres because at a red flag, you always take the chance to change the tyres, simply because they are the most vulnerable part of the car, it's a free pit stop.   At the same time, it could have been a fractured brake disc on Lewis's car, which they wouldn't change, and that'd put the car out in a dangerous way.  i.e. The whole debate came up based on something that occurred and was repaired almost entirely by chance.

 

 

Cut everything else out because this can't be highlighted enough.  Unfortunately we are all united here because of our love for a sport which is equally loved by a bunch of entitled idiots stuck in the past, who can't see beyond their own view on life, it's embarrassing. Having those views reinforced by comments made by sporting hero, come old fool like Jackie Stewarts is unforgivable.

 

What Lewis has brought to F1 in terms of ending racism / BLM / etc. is amazing, and almost certainly wouldn't have happened without him.

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the mega post everyone...!

 

 

Not to just +1 you, but I agree with every word. 

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25 minutes ago, ryodi said:

HAAS could be holding out for a manufacturer to buy out his team. Depending on how the new regulations work and what’s agreed for the new engine formula the team could be an attractive purchase for someone wanting to join the grid who doesn’t want to pay the $200m joining fee.

 

It's not, they don't have much infrastructure, Dallara build their car.

 

It'd look a lot like Tyrrell -> BAR in 1999.

 

What I'm saying is Paul Stoddart will probably end up building a Haas 2 seater.

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I'm pretty sure a deal for Gene Haas to sell the team to Mazepin Snr is already done. It'll be official and re-branded once the ban on Russian athletes in world sport is done (end of this year IIRC, convenient!) 

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3 hours ago, Corranga said:

 if he could make the corner from a position so close to the inside, they'd all do that, every lap.

 

It's clearly not the fastest way to do it, but it's perfectly possible to get around there from where he was and clearly he (a driver a touch more qualified than many armchairs racers on here) thought he was going to make it - unless you are suggesting Hamilton a) was deliberately intending to hit Max in order to slow himself down enough to make the corner and b) was totally confident in doing so that it would be Max who was taken out and he'd get no damage at all (which we know wasn't the case and the red flag saved him). People seem to forget that Hamilton had much more on the line than Max did really. The other way around (Max surviving and Ham having to stop) would have been catastrophe for Hamilton.

 

It's a racing incident between two drivers who didn't want to give an inch to the other. Both could have done things differently to make it easier for the other, but neither wanted to more than they wanted to make a statement to the other. Max would have done exactly the same thing, and Horner would have cheered him on calling it the 'brilliant confidence of youth'.

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1 hour ago, rgraves said:

It's a racing incident between two drivers who didn't want to give an inch to the other. Both could have done things differently to make it easier for the other, but neither wanted to more than they wanted to make a statement to the other. Max would have done exactly the same thing, and Horner would have cheered him on calling it the 'brilliant confidence of youth'.

Just a few short months ago.

Quote

 

Horner added: “Turn one was mega. Max was fully charged. That was full Max Verstappen. He was just going for it.

“He positioned the car fantastically well, tucked in and got a little bit of a tow and momentum and then just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully, Lewis got out of it because otherwise, they would have both ended up in the fence.”

 

 

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48 minutes ago, GwiDan said:

 

 

Reasonable analysis by Driver61; less footage than Jolyon Palmer, but makes some good points. 


I. Can’t. Watch. This. Guys. Videos. Anymore. Because. He. Talks. Like. This. And. It. Drives. Me. Spare.

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15 minutes ago, mexos said:


I. Can’t. Watch. This. Guys. Videos. Anymore. Because. He. Talks. Like. This. And. It. Drives. Me. Spare.

The snap cuts on every YouTube video drives me nuts, but it’s all like that now. 

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Yeah I still rate Scott Mansell very highly (although I disagree with him on the Max vs Lewis crash, I still say racing incident) but the presentation style of the Driver61 channel has certainly changed a lot since the early days. And not for the better, alas.

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4 hours ago, rgraves said:

 

It's clearly not the fastest way to do it, but it's perfectly possible to get around there from where he was and clearly he (a driver a touch more qualified than many armchairs racers on here) thought he was going to make it - unless you are suggesting Hamilton a) was deliberately intending to hit Max in order to slow himself down enough to make the corner and b) was totally confident in doing so that it would be Max who was taken out and he'd get no damage at all (which we know wasn't the case and the red flag saved him). People seem to forget that Hamilton had much more on the line than Max did really. The other way around (Max surviving and Ham having to stop) would have been catastrophe for Hamilton.

 

It's a racing incident between two drivers who didn't want to give an inch to the other. Both could have done things differently to make it easier for the other, but neither wanted to more than they wanted to make a statement to the other. Max would have done exactly the same thing, and Horner would have cheered him on calling it the 'brilliant confidence of youth'.

 

Sure, of course he could actually make the corner on that line, but not at that speed.

How about I'm suggesting c) Hamilton made a mistake, took a tight line but carried too much speed to make the corner.

 

Max, on the wider line could carry more speed into the corner, even armchair racers know that, yet Hamilton gained on him and made contact from a tighter line where he would have had to have been slower to make the corner.  Driver61 puts it better than me in the video above.

 

I understand why people say it's a racing incident, but F1 is a non contact sport, and had Hamilton not put his car into a position where it made it impossible for both cars to make the corner, the incident wouldn't have happened.

Realistically, only Hamilton could prevent this one, and for me, that's enough for it to be his fault, but on top of that, those expecting Max to somehow guess where Hamiton was based on crappy little rear view mirrors that vibrate everywhere and looking ahead probably 80% of the time are crazy. 

Max didn't know where Hamilton was, yet Hamilton knew exactly where Max was the whole time but didn't react to where we all know Max's car was about to be, actually, where we thought it'd be plus 1 cars width, as Max didn't close the door, he left plenty of room, just not accounting for Hamilton's excess speed / understeer / didn't account for colder tyres and a ton of fuel weight / missing the apex.

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Whereas I, watching all the same video you are, think Max knows exactly where Hamilton is and consciously decides to turn in on him anyway.* I also think Hamilton knows if he stays there, they’re crashing. 
 

I don’t think Hamilton is a dirty driver at all, but to me it’s a message to Max that he’s finally had enough of Max’s “you will yield or we’re crashing” Senna-esque driving style. Lewis is calling Max’s bluff, essentially. 
 

I don’t think for a second that he meant to put Max in the wall that hard. We know from Natalie Pinkham that the first Lewis heard that Max was in hospital was when she told him in his post-podium interview. Mercedes had only told him “he’s out of the car and he’s OK”. I do suspect if they’d told him Max had been airlifted to hospital, we’d have seen a much less exuberant champagne celebration.
 


 

 

*This also happens to be how Jolyon Palmer reads it. Some of the other pro drivers agree it’s a racing incident, while still others blame Hamilton as Driver61 does. 
 

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59 minutes ago, jonathanhoey said:

Whereas I, watching all the same video you are, think Max knows exactly where Hamilton is and consciously decides to turn in on him anyway.* I also think Hamilton knows if he stays there, they’re crashing. 

 

It's exactly this. Max has been doing it for years and getting away with it. Bullying the other car into submission. He expected Lewis to jump out of the way. Well not this time. Frankly I think that will have shocked him a bit.

 

I can't wait to see what his mindset is when they arrive in Hungary. I'd expect Lewis to start playing with him a bit. Time for some mind games. 

 

I really hope it's a rainy weekend next, heap on more pressure, more variables.

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They are definitely to collide again in Hungary. Max always make a point against a driver who he think has wronged him as soon as he gets the chance (Ocon in Abu Dhabi after the Brazilian GP comes to mind) and you can run side by side from the start in Hungary for the first four corners. 
 

Max definitely knew he was there, Hamilton gave Max the same choice Max gave him in Spain and Max chose the wrong option. 

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I know he's not particularly popular here, but here's Joe Saward's take:

 

Quote

 

Max ended up in the wall with a 51G impact that proved that Bernie Ecclestone’s remarks about Lewis losing his hunger were a million miles wide of the mark. Lewis showed on Sunday that he is very much the fighter that he always has been. In fact, I would argue that he showed a little more than that. There was something inevitable about the clash, which we have been expecting for some time.

 

I think this one was a racing incident because the contact between the two cars was minimal, but with big consequences. Max came steaming across in front of Lewis and almost did it right. There wasn’t much Lewis could do to avoid an impact at that point, although I am also sure that he ddn’t want a collision. Amid all the noise after the crash, few seemed to pay much attention to the FIA Stewards’ decision – and they largely missed the point that Lewis was also given two penalty points. The cars, the stewards said, “entered Turn 9 with car 33 in the lead and car 44 slightly behind and on the inside. Car 44 was on a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside. When car 33 turned into the corner, car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of car 44 contacted the right rear of car 33. Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault”.

 

The last phrase is significant. The stewards clearly felt that that Lewis should take most of the blame, but the word “predominantly” indicates that there was also some fault involved with Verstappen. There was no penalty for the Dutchman as the implications of an accident – while not considered in the discussion of blame – are treated as punishment in such circumstances.

 

So, in effect, the stewards were saying that both drivers had some responsibility in the crash.

 

I’d call that a racing incident…

 

You can argue as much as you like about it but it’s irrelevant. Max paid the price for his aggressivity – which he has always had – and Lewis paid the price for not getting out of his way. The key question beyond all the yapping and griping is whether Max will do the same again if the circumstances occur, or whether he will have learned that Lewis is not going to be shoved out of the way.

 

A line was drawn in the sand, if you like…

 

If Max does not take that onboard, I fear we will see some more incidents this year because Hamilton is still a lion by nature and cuffing troublesome cubs only works so many times before a bite is required to get the message across.

 

 

He also thinks that Bottas has signed for Alfa Romeo, which is probably going to prove to be right. 

 

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The only person that has something to lose here imo is Max. 

 

Without variables, without this kicking off Max is going to win the WDC. The smartest thing Max could do is stay clear of Lewis all weekend. Don't watch or read anything he says. Don't do any passes on him (if needed) except a safe DRS assisted one down the straight. I really hope this doesn't happen. :eyebrows:

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9 hours ago, GwiDan said:

I know he's not particularly popular here, but here's Joe Saward's take:

 

 

He also thinks that Bottas has signed for Alfa Romeo, which is probably going to prove to be right. 

 

 

 

And if he doesn't he'll go back and edit that story to say he thinks Bottas is going to sign for whoever he signs for.

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19 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

 

And if he doesn't he'll go back and edit that story to say he thinks Bottas is going to sign for whoever he signs for.


Joe would never do something like that...

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He hasn't to my knowledge. But he has used...  questionable judgement from time to time. And he comes out with a lot of lol worthy made up stuff.

 

Put it this way, if I learned that he had done something like that I wouldn't be overly surprised.

 

 

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12 hours ago, GwiDan said:

He also thinks that Bottas has signed for Alfa Romeo

 

I read that somewhere else this week and I'm not sure where. Apparently Alfa are no longer tied to having one of Ferraris drivers in their car, so they could be replacing both drivers this year.

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I don’t know why Ferrari persists with AG. It’s not like he’ll ever get the nod for the big time. Time to farm him off to the WEC project.

 

I’d like to see Bottas and a rookie in the Alfa. 
 

But it’s probably going to be Bottas and Kimi isn’t it. (null)

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16 minutes ago, mexos said:

I don’t know why Ferrari persists with AG. It’s not like he’ll ever get the nod for the big time. Time to farm him off to the WEC project.

 

I’d like to see Bottas and a rookie in the Alfa. 
 

But it’s probably going to be Bottas and Kimi isn’t it. (null)

Are you worried that driver line up would Finnish them?

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2 hours ago, mexos said:

He hasn't to my knowledge. But he has used...  questionable judgement from time to time. And he comes out with a lot of lol worthy made up stuff.

 

Put it this way, if I learned that he had done something like that I wouldn't be overly surprised.

 

 

 

He used to do it all the time 20 years ago, I caught him more than once.

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  • T Pot changed the title to Formula One 2021 - DRAMA - No refunds for you!
  • Kryptonian changed the title to Formula One 2021 - DRAMA - Can we be nice?

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