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Formula One 2021 - DRAMA - No refunds for you!


T Pot
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13 hours ago, McCoy said:

Difference is that Lewis had been told Max had walked away from the incident whilst Max wandered off literally whilst Lewis was trapped in the car? 

 

He wasn't trapped in the car. He was trying to reverse out. When max gets out of his car and starts to walk away you see him look over at Lewis while Lewis is trying to reverse back onto the track. 

 

As Max said in an interview later "He was trying to reverse out. If you're not okay, you don't do that".

 

I think the penalty is fair enough. Similar to the Silverstone incident I'd say it's almost a racing incident, with a 60-40% split in blame towards Max rather than Lewis. These things can easily happen when both drivers are racing hyper aggressively against each other. 

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So, despite my comments on how Horner saying it was a racing incident means it was Max's fault last night. I do think it was a racing incident, like Silverstone, due to one driver who refuses to give an inch but expects everyone else to jump out of their way and another driver taking the "I did this once already this race, it's your turn to budge". Again, much like Silverstone.

 

Was the penalty fair and just? Eh, not sure, the FIA have to be seen to be doing something after Silverstone, hopefully now that it's "evened out" somewhat. Now, people are saying "but Lewis went on to complete the race and even win at Silverstone, the penalties aren't comparable" but at Sochi Verstappen won't even be honouring his penalty as it's clear they'll replace his engine there, which again brings up "yeah but he wouldn't have to replace his engine if it weren't for Silverstone" but, and I'm not certain on this, the teams were always likely to replace his engine and take a grid penalty for that at some point, maybe @kiroquai@Dudley@SeanRs son can answer, has any front runner done an entire season only using their quota of engines?

 

I do think the teams and drivers need to have a sit down and talk with some mediation as, like others have said, I can see this all getting out of control due to the mentality that the Red Bull team seem to breed but it's all very exciting (I think I'm gonna coerce my OH to watch the rest of the season with me as she's watched each race since Silverstone).

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Also, I want to take a moment to talk about McLaren.

 

How different do they look!?

 

I remember in the 90s and 00s they were this clean, sterile, pretty boring team, yeah they were successful, but they were hardly likeable.

 

The 2010s saw them slipping further and further back until you get Alonso and the absolute state they were in.

 

Zak Brown and Seidl have got the team competitive again, given them a new identity by adopting the teams heritage colour and given them a personality by letting their drivers have personality's, it's been great to see and I hope it continues 

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17 minutes ago, mexos said:
Max would be in a far better championship position if he learned to back out and fight another day occasionally.

 

Indeed. I would have been smarter to back out in the first chicane simply because Lewis was clearly ahead. He was never going to make it, but his ego wasn't having it (neither was Lewis for the same reasons, and the fact that Max gave him no space in the 2nd chicane earlier). There was just too much risk to justify the reward. There's always the next corner, but on this level of racing that's not up for bargain I guess.

 

As a Dutchman I love how Max is doing on the track, but he still takes unneccesary risks sometimes. This battle between HAM and VER is the Hunt/Lauda and Senna/Prost of our time and I love it.

 

 

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1 minute ago, wev said:

Also, I want to take a moment to talk about McLaren.

 

How different do they look!?

 

I remember in the 90s and 00s they were this clean, sterile, pretty boring team, yeah they were successful, but they were hardly likeable.

 

The 2010s saw them slipping further and further back until you get Alonso and the absolute state they were in.

 

Zak Brown and Seidl have got the team competitive again, given them a new identity by adopting the teams heritage colour and given them a personality by letting their drivers have personality's, it's been great to see and I hope it continues 

 

I think it's fantastic how they've come back out of the shadows. Here's hoping they can give RB and Mercedes something to work for.

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1 hour ago, mexos said:
TLDR: Max would be in a far better championship position if he learned to back out and fight another day occasionally.

A bit of a double edged sword, that one. There's the famous story that, in his carting days, Max's dad would demand he make an overtake at corner x, y or z, picking increasingly more impossible corners over time. To instil the confidence and race craft to be able to do so. Max carried that nothing-is-impossible attitude into F1 along with the level of aggression required to achieve it. That he goes all out, 100%, is why he is so fast, why he is exciting to watch, why he is in a position to fight for a championship (Sergio has the same car, can anyone see him fighting for the title?). If he changes that approach, he just becomes Bottas. So whilst there may be some truth in the article you link to, it suffers from ignoring the above. 

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He wouldn't "just become Bottas" there's a difference between attacking and trying to win every corner and having the maturity to know when to attack and win a particular corner.

 

Max is still missing that.

 

Does it make him great to watch? Sure. But he has a petulance about him, which is multiplied by his bosses licking his arsehole at every opportunity that means he's actually making this battle harder for himself than it needs to be.

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I get that as an attitude to get him to where he is now. But he's older and more experienced now, he must by now see that is not the way you (typically) win championships.

 

Lewis was not that different in his early days, he made a lot of moves he wouldn't make today that ended up in silly avoidable incidents.

 

Since then he's matured and cracked the code to win championships. His driving is more balanced between risk VS reward. And the killer instinct is absolutely still there to make moves when the time is right. If Max can't also find that balance he will never reach his full potential IMO (many, many WDCs) and become a guy like Alonso that had the blistering raw speed to win so much more, but in the end other factors limited that success to a fraction of what it could have been.

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Except Senna wasn't in a potentially championship winning car until he got the McLaren drive. Nor did drivers receive the same level of coaching and analysis as they do now, it's not really comparable.

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Max also has to get his around the fact he's driving an F1 car, not a kart - stuff that you could perhaps get away with in lower formulas you simply can't (and shouldn't) in F1. The stakes are a lot higher.

 

Winning is as much about picking which battles to fight, as it is about raw speed. Aggressive is good, blind belief that you're god and everyone else should and will just instantly get out of the way or else is not.

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Quote

Lewis was not that different in his early days, he made a lot of moves he wouldn't make today that ended up in silly avoidable incidents.

 

Max has been in F1 for nearly seven years and is one of the most experienced drivers on the grid, he’s not in his early days anymore despite his young age.

 

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7 minutes ago, mexos said:

I get that as an attitude to get him to where he is now. But he's older and more experienced now, he must by now see that is not the way you (typically) win championships.

 

Lewis was not that different in his early days, he made a lot of moves he wouldn't make today that ended up in silly avoidable incidents.

 

Since then he's matured and cracked the code to win championships. His driving is more balanced between risk VS reward. And the killer instinct is absolutely still there to make moves when the time is right. If Max can't also do that they he will never reach his full potential (many, many WDCs) and become a guy like Alonso that had the blistering raw speed to win so much more, but other factors held him back.

 

Although when Lewis joined F1 he was pretty much the same age as Max is now. So while Max has matured a bit from his early days, Lewis still has 13 years more life experience than him right now. Still many many years for Max to mellow out. 

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15 minutes ago, ryodi said:

 

Max has been in F1 for nearly seven years and is one of the most experienced drivers on the grid, he’s not in his early days anymore despite his young age.

 

 

Might not be in his early F1 days anymore, but he is still 13 years younger than Lewis. He's still at an age where he's still developing mentally. How many of you were as calm and laid back about things in life when you were 23 vs when you were 36?

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50 minutes ago, wev said:

Also, I want to take a moment to talk about McLaren.

 

How different do they look!?

 

I remember in the 90s and 00s they were this clean, sterile, pretty boring team, yeah they were successful, but they were hardly likeable.

 

The 2010s saw them slipping further and further back until you get Alonso and the absolute state they were in.

 

Zak Brown and Seidl have got the team competitive again, given them a new identity by adopting the teams heritage colour and given them a personality by letting their drivers have personality's, it's been great to see and I hope it continues 

They also seem to have a very noticible ammount of female staff members.  I was dubious of Zak Brown at first, seemed to cover his lack of knowledge of F1 with management speak and was always front and centre of every time a camera was around when he started, but he seems to be doing good things and bringing it the right people, he also seems genuinly liked by the team.

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Lots of good points here, I like. ^_^

 

23 and he's already got that much F1 experience. It's pretty wild when you think about it. By the time he hangs up his helmet he could have had another 17+ seasons under his belt. Mental.

 

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Plissken said:

To use the old cliché - to finish first, first you must finish.

 

I'm pretty sure that the same things being levelled at Verstappen now were levelled at Senna in his pre-McLaren days.

"If you see a gap and don't go for it, you're no longer a racer." - Senna. 

I'm not disagreeing with you. I think Max has matured a lot during his time in F1, but he has a wicked temper, which got the better of him yesterday that he really needs to get on top of. 

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Only posting this because i just noticed it and it blows my mind - not for any other comparison because the number of races per year was different etc etc. 

 

According to Wikipedia Senna had a total of 161 race starts and Max already has 133. And he is only 23! 

 

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3 minutes ago, mexos said:

Lots of good points here, I like. ^_^

 

23 and he's already got that much F1 experience. It's pretty wild when you think about it. By the time he hangs up his helmet he could have had another 17+ seasons under his belt. Mental.

 

I could easily see him taking the record from Kimi as most GP Entries.

 

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2 minutes ago, Blue said:

but he has a wicked temper, which got the better of him yesterday and he really needs to get on top of. 

 

100% true, and it loops back to my point that he is still only 23. Yes he needs to control it at points, but a lot of maturing will just come with age for some people.

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2 minutes ago, T Pot said:

 

I could easily see him taking the record from Kimi as most GP Entries.

 

 

Oh easily. And even if Ham wins that 8th he still has enough time to blitz all his records. 

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21 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

They also seem to have a very noticible ammount of female staff members.  I was dubious of Zak Brown at first, seemed to cover his lack of knowledge of F1 with management speak and was always front and centre of every time a camera was around when he started, but he seems to be doing good things and bringing it the right people, he also seems genuinly liked by the team.

 

 

I now work with someone that worked at Mclaren, I quizzed him a lot about his time there and he didn't have a great opinion of Zak. But then he left so...

 

From the outside given what we see, Zak is hard not to like. And where they are today VS the mess when he arrived. Hats off. 

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8 minutes ago, mexos said:

 

 

I now work with someone that worked at Mclaren, I quizzed him a lot about his time there and he didn't have a great opinion of Zak. But then he left so...

 

From the outside given what we see, Zak is hard not to like. And where they are today VS the mess when he arrived. Hats off. 

 

Wonder if he could have been a fan of Ron Dennis with the matrix system for staff and management directed haircuts for the drivers.

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Mind you, who wouldn't be fucking incandescent with rage when a guy whose job is to undo a nut, do up a nut, then press a button, can only remember two things in that sequence. 

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1 minute ago, Blue said:

Mind you, who wouldn't be fucking incandescent with rage when a guy whose job is to undo a nut, do up a nut, then press a button, can only remember two things in that sequence. 

 

Yeah what happened there? It didn't look like a technical failure, it looked like he forgot something. Someone tapped him on the shoulder to go again.

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1 minute ago, T Pot said:

 

Wonder if he could have been a fan of Ron Dennis with the matrix system for staff and management directed haircuts for the drivers.

 

 

Normally you'd be bang on but he's got OCD pretty bad so probably yes. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, T Pot said:

 

Yeah what happened there? It didn't look like a technical failure, it looked like he forgot something. Someone tapped him on the shoulder to go again.

He undid the nut, did up the nut, then forgot the next step. Sat staring at it for a lifetime, then when told he was the fuck up, went back to step 2 and did the nut up again instead of pressing the button to say the nut was done up. 

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