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Difficulty Level - Where is my Easy Mode!


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3 minutes ago, jonny_rat said:

ell, that's sort of the point: all great if you're one of the people for whom the souls games hit the sweet spot.

 

Which is also the point.

 

They are not for everyone and have never been designed as such. By reducing the risk you reduce the potential for reward and from then on the games are deviating from the developers intentions...

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25 minutes ago, jonny_rat said:

 

Well, that's sort of the point: all great if you're one of the people for whom the souls games hit the sweet spot. For my part, I've stopped recommending then to friends, because everyone who has tried them has found them impenetrable. 


Is that a problem though? I really enjoyed I’m Thinking of Ending Things. I haven’t recommended it to anyone because I know most people wouldn’t enjoy it, but I don’t see that as a problem that needs fixing by making it more like a Marvel movie or something. It’s just a really weird movie aimed at what I assume is a very small audience. That isn’t and inherent problem with it and I don’t think it would be improved by making it as easy to watch and digest as possible, you’d remove the essential nature that makes it what it is. I really don’t see the problem with creative people making things that not absolutely everyone will like.

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1 hour ago, Mike S said:

 

Which is also the point.

 

They are not for everyone and have never been designed as such. By reducing the risk you reduce the potential for reward and from then on the games are deviating from the developers intentions...

But you aren't moving the risk and reward parameters away from developer intentions. You are putting options in place to ensure that players of different abilities - meaning that in both the soft sense of gaming ability, and the hard sense of disabilities - can experience the same set of risks and rewards that you do.

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56 minutes ago, Broker said:


Is that a problem though? I really enjoyed I’m Thinking of Ending Things. I haven’t recommended it to anyone because I know most people wouldn’t enjoy it, but I don’t see that as a problem that needs fixing by making it more like a Marvel movie or something. It’s just a really weird movie aimed at what I assume is a very small audience. That isn’t and inherent problem with it and I don’t think it would be improved by making it as easy to watch and digest as possible, you’d remove the essential nature that makes it what it is. I really don’t see the problem with creative people making things that not absolutely everyone will like.

On one hand I agree, in that not every game has to be for everyone in terms of creative intent. But this isn't like saying that your lore-heavy strategy game needs to appeal to bullet hell shooter fans: this is saying that there is a series of decisions and options that we could implement here that would enable more people who want to play this game to actually play it - with no impact to the base game experience - and we are deciding not to, whether for creative or business reasons. And that's the thing: the reason I'm not recommending it any more isn't because I don't think they'll enjoy the lore, the world, the atmosphere, the exploring, the combat, the risk and reward - they'd be into all that. It's totally for them in every way, expiry that it's just too hard. And the souls games are about way more than just difficulty!

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2 minutes ago, jonny_rat said:

But you aren't moving the risk and reward parameters away from developer intentions. You are putting options in place to ensure that players of different abilities - meaning that in both the soft sense of gaming ability, and the hard sense of disabilities - can experience the same set of risks and rewards that you do.

 

Well, until FROM decide to engineer their games to accommodate a huge range of different gaming abilities to a greater degree then they do so already we will need to disagree.  Doing so, whilst remaining true to the vision of what they expect the player to experience from their games, can't be easy or they might have done so already but, and most likely, it is just not something they are interested in. 

 

I do think that the current system of boss summons or offering easy opportunities to over level actually does offer a fair amount of accomodation to players with lower skill bases and/or a lower tolerance for the harder sections without needing too much, if any, tinkering. 

 

Accessibility is a whole other subject and not one I have enough experience of to discuss. 

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I treat the games like a movie. I watch/play as the director intended. You wouldn't ask authors of books or directors of movies to change their creation to suit your tastes? If that means that you don't like the game, don't play it. There's hunners of games you'll enjoy more just like there's hunners of books and movies you'll enjoy more. 

 

I had gone off gaming for good while. The fact that these were basically git gud and figure out the lore meant that's what you really needed to do and that really appealed to me. Struggling? There's a community out there piecing together the puzzle and will happily join in to help you through when you're hitting a wall. 

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These From games only clicked with me when I got the Demon Souls remake last month. I have bought every single release from them and never got past the opening areas but the combination of new console plus spending 70 quid on a game made me persevere this time round.
Dusted Demon souls, bloodborne and dark souls 3 over the last month and having around 150-160 hours put into these types of games over the last month. I definitely think experience is the overall challenge. I couldn’t tell you one thing about the stories in the 3 I have completed so far.

I think in dropping the difficulty would be stripping away what you end up playing these games for. Replaying a bit over and over until you finally get it. They’re all just puzzles in themselves. I would say it’s more of a challenge trying to get your head round the story. 

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30 minutes ago, kris_doe said:

They’re all just puzzles in themselves.


This is an interesting point, how do people who want more accessible design is games feel about puzzles? Would people like it if there was an option to just have portal tell you how to solve the level? Would that essentially remove the point of the whole exercise? Not trying to be sarcastic, I’m genuinely interested. 

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There are puzzle games like The Room that use progressive hint systems in case you get stuck. They start vague enough to just point you in the right direction, and get more specific as required. This is an idea that goes all the way back to text adventures like the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy game.

 

Even so, while I get the puzzle analogy there's an obvious gap between knowing how to defeat a boss in an action game and actually being able to carry out those actions. I would assume any easy mode in a Souls game would still require you to play the game to progress, so you'd still have figure out what you have to do. It would just be more lenient with damage, parry windows and stuff.

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When Final Fantasy 14 relaunched, it gated some pretty significant plot behind a series of incredibly difficult raids (Turn 9 lol). In the end the majority of the player base was not able to see this content.

 

In each subsequent expansion Square Enix offered both the super hard bastard raid, along with a easier version that while having exactly the same story content, offered a lesser reward. In the end apart from a few elitist gatekeepers everyone was happy. People who wanted to experience the content were able to do so, and those who wanted a challenge were also catered to.

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2 minutes ago, layten said:

When Final Fantasy 14 relaunched, it gated some pretty significant plot behind a series of incredibly difficult raids (Turn 9 lol). In the end the majority of the player base was not able to see this content.

 

In each subsequent expansion Square Enix offered both the super hard bastard raid, along with a easier version that while having exactly the same story content, offered a lesser reward. In the end apart from a few elitist gatekeepers everyone was happy. People who wanted to experience the content were able to do so, and those who wanted a challenge were also catered to.


But even the significant plot in these games is a challenge. I would turn the difficulty down in games like God of War and Last of Us to blaze through the story. However in these games they’re not delivered as simply as that. 
 

So in stripping away that difficulty it’s allowing access to what? 

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I genuinely think Souls zealots are the worst. The games are fucking amazing. The world building, the way the levels loop and intersect is tesseract levels of genius, but they are also battles of attrition that some people fail to and some people can barely even penetrate. The idea that some magic would be diminished if you took slightly less damage but dished out a little bit more is just bizarre. Then you get the arguments. But the creator's vision! But the story! But overcoming Dark Souls changed my life!

 

Fuck off. 

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Souls games are definitely works of art: driven by a singular vision and presented without compromise. 

 

It doesn't matter if they are still good if you tweak the damage values; many works of art  would still be great if you changed up some of the colours. But they are presented as is. 

 

Mutazaki does not care if you finish Dark Souls. It's meant to be hard to evoke certain emotions, and From can't individually tune it for every player. 

 

It just is, and that's it. You are neither better or worse as a person for liking it, completing it, mastering it or hating it. 

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29 minutes ago, Opinionated Ham Scarecrow said:

I genuinely think Souls zealots are the worst. The games are fucking amazing. The world building, the way the levels loop and intersect is tesseract levels of genius, but they are also battles of attrition that some people fail to and some people can barely even penetrate. The idea that some magic would be diminished if you took slightly less damage but dished out a little bit more is just bizarre. Then you get the arguments. But the creator's vision! But the story! But overcoming Dark Souls changed my life!

 

Fuck off. 

But you can do that already just by levelling up?

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Just now, Opinionated Ham Scarecrow said:

 

And how does mindlessly levelling improve the lore and world building and story and lore etc yawn yawn yawn.

If you find the levelling up mindless why play? Just watch a let's play. This argument would be much better directed at games like Hollow Knight in which that kind of levelling up (or summoning) isn't possible.

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5 minutes ago, Opinionated Ham Scarecrow said:

 

And how does googling where to loot the best kit and rings improve the lore and world building and story and lore etc yawn yawn yawn.

 

If you assume googling is essential for the experience and the grinding seems mindlessly boring, I don't think these games are for you. Moreover, a lot of the lore is hidden in the (hidden) items, so not only would you miss out on the gameplay side, you'd miss half the story as well.

 

As I said, in a way there is an adjustable difficulty, you just have to put some effort in. 

 

I honestly don't see the point of this discussion, there's lots of games I don't like. I just go and play something I do like instead.

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Just now, Keyboard Koala said:

I honestly don't see the point of this discussion, there's lots of games I don't like. I just go and play something I do like instead.


In a more reasonable world, this would close the argument and everyone would say “very good point” and that would be that.

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3 minutes ago, Keyboard Koala said:

 

If you assume googling is essential for the experience and the grinding seems mindlessly boring, I don't think these games are for you. Moreover, a lot of the lore is hidden in the (hidden) items, so not only would you miss out on the gameplay side, you'd miss half the story as well.

 

As I said, in a way there is an adjustable difficulty, you just have to put some effort in. 

 

I honestly don't see the point of this discussion, there's lots of games I don't like. I just go and play something I do like instead.

 

I honestly don't see the point either if the people who have drank the kool aid refuse to let anyone else share. As I've repeatedly said, I love the games but don't think an easy mode reduces anything but the boners of the weirdo zealots who have attached some odd sense of achievement to completing a videogame.

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