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The Falcon and The Winter Soldier - on Disney+ from 19 March


Nick R
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2 hours ago, sir stiff_one said:

I think this has been sort of all over the place in terms of pacing and whether it’s boring and trying to find its rhythm, but last ep was pretty good. They don’t make Walker very likeable and I think that could be a missed opportunity, because he’s obviously been through some shit. 


I kinda found him likeable tbh. He doesn’t come across as a complete dick. He’s just a try hard and wants to be liked and do his part for his country.

 

I read up on his origins. He’s supposed to be the complete opposite of the patriotism that Captain America stood for.

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52 minutes ago, sir stiff_one said:

Nebula’s redemption arc? Her learning to trust and showing she can care for a person? I think that was one of the better moments.

 

51 minutes ago, Thor said:

Aye, those first scenes with Nebula and Tony are brilliant. 


To be clear, I absolutely love that scene with Tony and Nebula as a standalone piece. It’s charming and funny and they’re both fantastic in that scene. It does do some work to establish the idea that Nebula is learning to trust people.

 

My problem with it is that absolutely nothing about it factors into the rest of the movie. It creates some tension around whether Tony is going to die, which is immediately undercut by them being abruptly saved by Captain Marvel for no reason that is explained in the film. Tony and Nebula never speak again, Nebula has no meaningful interactions with anyone but Gamorah for the rest of the movie when all of their stuff was resolved in Guardians 2 but gets dragged back up because they need a new Gamorah after she got chucked off a cliff in the last one. 
 

In a film as long as Endgame, I don’t really feel like there’s time for fun scenes that add very little to the overall narrative. I can’t help but think that it only exists so they could put it out as a trailer and pretend that there was any chance Tony was going to die in space. I love it in isolation but it’s one of the many scenes that contribute to what I thought was a pretty poorly paced and overly long movie.

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Tony and nebula don’t speak that’s true but she becomes a trusted member and sets up the end for us thinking ‘there’s the good nebula and the bad nebula’ when before she was a right twat. We like her, and that scene helps set that up. 

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34 minutes ago, probotector said:


I kinda found him likeable tbh. He doesn’t come across as a complete dick. He’s just a try hard and wants to be liked and do his part for his country.

 

I read up on his origins. He’s supposed to be the complete opposite of the patriotism that Captain America stood for.

Nah he was a right ding dong from the start. If you can’t see that it’s because you are also a ding dong. He’s a twat from the start but more than that he’s got a real horrible vibe about him. If they could have turned that around it would have been marvellous storytelling. Instead I feel a bit of sympathy for his situation but he just beat a guy to death in the street with a blunt shield. He’s unstable, because of the system he’s in, whereas I guess cap was always trying to get in. I like the idea and the character is pretty good. 

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4 hours ago, sir stiff_one said:

Tony and nebula don’t speak that’s true but she becomes a trusted member and sets up the end for us thinking ‘there’s the good nebula and the bad nebula’ when before she was a right twat. We like her, and that scene helps set that up. 


I guess it also lays the groundwork for her conversation with Rhodey, which is another brief but absolutely excellent piece of acting from Gillan. 
 

Literally my only problem with Nebula in that scene is that I feel like it’s setting us up for more of her than we get.

 

1 hour ago, Sexton Hardcastle said:

That scene is to have Tony narrate his own eulogy, the things he talks about are what turn out to be his fate later in the movie. 


That’s a cool idea. So cool in fact that he delivers himself a second, better eulogy later in the movie. 

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Must admit I was surprised to see how many people online seem to hate Walker with a passion. 
 

He was always going to fail as Captain America because he was only chosen for the role due to optics. A highly decorated soldier who scores off the charts. Driven. Focussed. Successful. Sure, a bit conceited, but given his achievements he has cause to be. 
 

Taking a man like that and putting him into the same sphere as meta-humans is like taking a flyweight boxer and throwing them into the heavyweight league. Utterly ruinous for the psyche. That this outcome is so inevitable leads me to think that Walker was expected to fail, so that the military could have more support/funding in researching the super soldier serum. ‘Look, we did things your way. Chose an exceptional, unaltered human. But it wasn’t enough. We need more.’ 
 

As he said in his speech, he dedicated his life to the military, gave them everything he had, and they left him high and dry. Expressing disbelief when a soldier under enormous psychological stress was ill equipped to be a peacekeeper, ‘stop the terrorists. Wait, no! Not like that!’ 
 

Saying he was ‘a twat from the start’ strikes me as leapfrogging over a fair bit of nuance to reach a comforting black/white conclusion. 

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But whatever he did thus far to make you like him, was utterly undone by the fact he used Caps shield to beat a man to death. 

He clearly lacks any form of self control and is thus going to be a nob from day one. 

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Considering this is ultimately a kids show I’m finding all the plot threads confusing, particularly last episode.

 

Enfys Nest and her gang really hate the (ERC?) Not sure why.

 

Zemu was broken out because...reasons. Spent his time running from the Wakandan’s who now have him.

 

Seinfeld lady is interested in Walker. Walker took the serum? Walker has gone insane.

 

Falcon and Bucky and Falcon’s sister are repairing a boat, which illustrates racism and symbolises something about their family.

 

Black Captain America was treated like shit because of the racist establishment. Racism reiterated by Falcon explaining this to Bucky in front of an Antebellum house amid the Southern Live Oaks.

 

This all takes place in a variety of Eastern European cities, Georgia and some other places.

 

Agent Carter’s (niece? Granddaughter?) is doing something somewhere.

 

None of these plots are bad, but they are all pretty disjointed and poorly weaved together.

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20 hours ago, womblingfree said:

Considering this is ultimately a kids show I’m finding all the plot threads confusing, particularly last episode.

 

 

I don't class this as a kids show at all. Or is that just me? We've let our daughter watch the MCU recently but found this probably the most violent thing they've done so didn't let her watch.

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Naw you can’t turn on CBeebies without seeing a black veteran facing systematic racism or a former assassin in therapy. Definitely a kids’ show.

 

Edit - Not that being needlessly convoluted is a mark of an adult or well-made show mind you, it’s just a weird context to put that.

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7 hours ago, Garibaldi said:

Must admit I was surprised to see how many people online seem to hate Walker with a passion. 
 

He was always going to fail as Captain America because he was only chosen for the role due to optics. A highly decorated soldier who scores off the charts. Driven. Focussed. Successful. Sure, a bit conceited, but given his achievements he has cause to be. 
 

Taking a man like that and putting him into the same sphere as meta-humans is like taking a flyweight boxer and throwing them into the heavyweight league. Utterly ruinous for the psyche. That this outcome is so inevitable leads me to think that Walker was expected to fail, so that the military could have more support/funding in researching the super soldier serum. ‘Look, we did things your way. Chose an exceptional, unaltered human. But it wasn’t enough. We need more.’ 
 

As he said in his speech, he dedicated his life to the military, gave them everything he had, and they left him high and dry. Expressing disbelief when a soldier under enormous psychological stress was ill equipped to be a peacekeeper, ‘stop the terrorists. Wait, no! Not like that!’ 
 

Saying he was ‘a twat from the start’ strikes me as leapfrogging over a fair bit of nuance to reach a comforting black/white conclusion. 

I agree with a lot of that. He’s had a rough ride. I don’t think he is a hateable character, just bereft of any of the likeable and protective personality of Steve Rogers. It help explains why he becomes what he does, and I feel quite sorry for him, but doesn’t excuse what he does. I don’t hate him and clearly has enough merit to afford relationships (wife and trusted friend), but still, just has that vibe from the start. ‘Don’t trust this guy.’

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I think with Walker it's partly because they just told us about all the good things he has done rather than show us in the show. It would have added some nice depth if we saw a glimmer of that heroic protectively/sacrifice from him before the pressure and power pushed him to far.

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6 hours ago, Delargey said:

I think with Walker it's partly because they just told us about all the good things he has done rather than show us in the show. It would have added some nice depth if we saw a glimmer of that heroic protectively/sacrifice from him before the pressure and power pushed him to far.

 

Agreed. And his introduction to the show was this kind of smug shot with no character context, pitting the audience against him immediately because he's not Steve or Sam. A couple of scenes of him in action and humanising him as a man and comrade throughout episode one, leading up to him being offered the shield, would have helped enormously.

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8 hours ago, Delargey said:

I think with Walker it's partly because they just told us about all the good things he has done rather than show us in the show. It would have added some nice depth if we saw a glimmer of that heroic protectively/sacrifice from him before the pressure and power pushed him to far.


I know it would probably work for some people, but I don’t think scenes of him being a “heroic” US soldier in the Middle East would have necessarily made him seem less evil to me. 

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Yeah he probably was a nice enough guy once (but still, maybe), but is corrupted because he’s part of the system. He even mentions the shit they had to do. He knows he isn’t worthy, but it just frustrates and makes him angry.

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Personally although I've had multiple issues with this series, Walker isn't one of them. I think they've handled his character really well, and as said previously he by far the best thing about it. 

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Walker has been an entirely typical depiction of 'American murder machine makes murderers. And is glad about it'. They may give something in the next episode to disrupt that, or show a glimmer of introspection, but they haven't yet.

 

The most innovative thing they did was cut the Cap helmet/mask differently so he looked slightly ridiculous and unlikeable from the off.

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17 hours ago, womblingfree said:

Considering this is ultimately a kids show I’m finding all the plot threads confusing, particularly last episode.

 

Enfys Nest and her gang really hate the (ERC?) Not sure why.

 

Zemu was broken out because...reasons. Spent his time running from the Wakandan’s who now have him.

 

Seinfeld lady is interested in Walker. Walker took the serum? Walker has gone insane.

 

Falcon and Bucky and Falcon’s sister are repairing a boat, which illustrates racism and symbolises something about their family.

 

Black Captain America was treated like shit because of the racist establishment. Racism reiterated by Falcon explaining this to Bucky in front of an Antebellum house amid the Southern Live Oaks.

 

This all takes place in a variety of Eastern European cities, Georgia and some other places.

 

Agent Carter’s (niece? Granddaughter?) is doing something somewhere.

 

None of these plots are bad, but they are all pretty disjointed and poorly weaved together.

 

I think it's a bit hamstrung in some ways by both trying to tell its own story and also set up future MCU events.

 

The main plot of the show appears to be John Walker and (presumably) the eventual transfer of the Captain America role to Sam Wilson.

 

The main underlying theme is systemic racism, which impacts on Sam and is personified by Isaiah Bradley.

 

Hollyoaks terrorist woman is there to provide some threat and move the plot from place to place.

 

Everything else - Zemo, Sharon Carter, the Countess character, whatever John Walker ends up becoming - is putting pieces into place for future MCU events. Bucky is just kind of there.

 

Overall I think it's been pretty decent, it's improved as it's gone on but it does feel unfocused compared to Wandavision. If the rumours are right, and they had to remove a virus/plague plotline from the show late in development due to similarities to Covid, it would explain a lot of things, especially the underbaked terrorism plotline.

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3 hours ago, Garwoofoo said:

I think it's a bit hamstrung in some ways by both trying to tell its own story and also set up future MCU events.

I'm intrigued to see just how much of these shows will be referenced in the movies. 

 

On one hand, they're obviously canon. On the other, there are people that won't bother with them and continue to just watch the movies. 

 

For me personally, as someone who thoroughly enjoys the MCU movies, I don't really give a fuck about revisiting this or Wandavision anytime soon. 

 

All the debate over potential cameos in Wandavision, was far more interesting than the show itself. 

 

Hopefully Loki changes that, but I doubt it. 

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I think they’ll probably get referenced a fair amount, at least in passing. I think it’s really, really unlikely that when Wanda shows up in Dr Strange they won’t make any reference to what happened in Westview for instance. 

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The series so far have been well-constructed to mean only minor references would be needed.

 

The end of this is going to have Zemo in a different jail, Falcon deciding to be Captain America, Bucky working through his guilt and bad-Cap presumably defeated. That leaves us more or less exactly where we were at the start. If you haven't seen it, you can do the next movie without really missing anything. It's the same for Wandavision. Vision's dead, Wanda's alone. You can reintroduce Rambeau at some point working through her new powers as resulting from "the Westview incident" and everyone gets on with their day. I guess the big change there that "needs" some explanation will be her new magic book, but there's not a lot of actual change (I think by design) that needs to be covered off.

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It's interesting reading what people think now, versus a few weeks ago.

 

I'm loving the show now, and am watching it alongside a timeline order rewatch of the movies. We just finished Civil War. The way many subsequent movies and these series are exploring the impacts of 'being a hero' both on the individual supers and the wider world is really neatly done.

 

Walker is a great character. 'Murica and everyone else pursuing super soldiers who turn out to be fucking psychos when given the serum means Steve rises even higher than others - it bounces directly off the themes of his origin and his continued journey through the series' ("Just because it's easy doesn't mean it's the wrong choice" to paraphrase Black Widow in Civil War, just underpins everything about the man). Nobody has learned the lesson that if you don't just want murderous murdering murder machines that are unstoppable, you need the right character underneath them. Walker realising that not only is he not good enough to be Cap, but also even with the serum he is simply not good enough to be Cap was brilliant when contrasted with his declaring he absolutely is Cap in his speech. He's just the Cap they deserve, rather than the one they were fortunate enough to have last time.

 

I'm warming to Falcon and the story about systemic racism and treatment of black folk, and what it means to swear allegiance to that shield is a waaaay more interesting thing to do than the "Yay Black Cap" ending we got in Endgame. I thought the framing of the kids (shouting "Uncle Sam!") and their admiration for him and the shield was particularly touching.

 

Bucky's storyline is perhaps the weakest so far. I'll be interested to see how the atonement thing goes from here on out.

 

I'm still not sure why Zemo was broken out, why he had a mask and why the Wakandan's wanted him. Hey ho. I like him as a character.

 

The whole GRC storyline is nice, but needs to dig deeper. 20 million people being resettled isn't a lot, really, when you consider 3.5 billion re-appeared on the planet last Sunday. I'm not sure they've framed the issue quite right, but I do like that they're framing it at all.

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