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The Falcon and The Winter Soldier - on Disney+ from 19 March


Nick R
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Yes, suit boring. (At least they've come up with more fun ways to use it than Falcon has had across the whole movie series.)

 

But he's surrounded by people who think that Captain America's legacy is a shield, a costume, a serum, representing the government, etc. Of course the response to that question is ultimately going to be "Captain America's legacy is just doing the right thing".

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Yeah Falcon is inherently a B or even C level character. Giving him a new suit and the shield doesn't make him Cap for me. If he had to face a 'proper' villain then he'd be getting his ass handed to him. 

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27 minutes ago, Stoppy2000 said:

Yeah Falcon is inherently a B or even C level character. Giving him a new suit and the shield doesn't make him Cap for me. If he had to face a 'proper' villain then he'd be getting his ass handed to him. 

 

It is a bit weird. Without superpowers he'd be mincemeat against any high level opponent. Iron Man only ever got away with it because his tech was so ridiculously good. Falcon could be decapitated with one punch, preferably after another 10 minute 'Do better' monologue. (I just didn't think it was a very well written speech. It was preachy, overlong and overwrought. Maybe it had to be in order to try to get through to the desired audience - one of those 'the message is more important' moments - but I don't think people who didn't believe in the message would still have been watching this show anyway. It felt a bit self-congratulatory to me rather than really changing anything.)

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I don't even like non superhero types being able to throw the shield. Always felt like that should be a special ability. Ah well. Bring on Loki - let's hope it has an actual compelling storyline. At the very least we know the main character is good. 

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1 hour ago, Stoppy2000 said:

Yeah Falcon is inherently a B or even C level character. Giving him a new suit and the shield doesn't make him Cap for me. If he had to face a 'proper' villain then he'd be getting his ass handed to him. 


His suit levels the playing field a bit, but I certainly see your point. He was still unable to decisively beat Batroc, who hasn’t had the serum (though Batroc is exceptionally well trained, and even made Steve break a little sweat.) You get the feeling that if you dropped Sam into the Battle for New York he’d put on a good show but still end up as paste. 
 

The message of ‘you don’t need some super juice to be a hero!’ is a laudable one, of course, but there’s still a part of me saying ‘don’t you, though?’ 

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4 minutes ago, Garibaldi said:


His suit levels the playing field a bit, but I certainly see your point. He was still unable to decisively beat Batroc, who hasn’t had the serum (though Batroc is exceptionally well trained, and even made Steve break a little sweat.) You get the feeling that if you dropped Sam into the Battle for New York he’d put on a good show but still end up as paste. 
 

 

I don't know. Black Widow held her own in the Battle for New York and she's not superpowered. I imagine if Sam is going to be the new Cap, he'll be facing Zemo-style characters and saving the Thanks type for the ensemble films. 

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4 minutes ago, Garibaldi said:


His suit levels the playing field a bit, but I certainly see your point. He was still unable to decisively beat Batroc, who hasn’t had the serum (though Batroc is exceptionally well trained, and even made Steve break a little sweat.) You get the feeling that if you dropped Sam into the Battle for New York he’d put on a good show but still end up as paste. 
 

The message of ‘you don’t need some super juice to be a hero!’ is a laudable one, of course, but there’s still a part of me saying ‘don’t you, though?’ 

I think you don't need super serum until you are fighting a proper super villain - which these Flag Smashers allegedly were. 

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39 minutes ago, mdn2 said:

I don't know. Black Widow held her own in the Battle for New York and she's not superpowered. I imagine if Sam is going to be the new Cap, he'll be facing Zemo-style characters and saving the Thanks type for the ensemble films. 


True, but a large portion of Black Widow’s life was spent training to be an elite assassin, to a level which has inflicted permanent damage on her psyche. You could argue Hawkeye as well, of course, but I’ll never be convinced that guy is entirely human. I think he’s just meta on a level which isn’t easily detectable. Nobody is that accurate with an arrow. 
 

I do agree that they’ll steer away from ever having Sam fight anyone too powerful. 

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Am I alone in thinking without super strength Sam ought to have been getting crushed between the truck and his jetpack? At least until he hooked up the little falcons anyway..

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20 minutes ago, Alask said:

Am I alone in thinking without super strength Sam ought to have been getting crushed between the truck and his jetpack? At least until he hooked up the little falcons anyway..


Yeah, it’s pretty inconsistent.

 

Battle star died after a little push from Kali but Sam gets thrown around full force and takes on Fake Cap in a 3 on one and fights and takes damage to a similar degree as Bucky, a super soldier with 70 years fighting experience and brainwashing 

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59 minutes ago, Fallows said:

This had me in stitches:

 


"It's just any excuse with this guy, isn't it!?".

 

:lol:

 

Sorry is this a parody of right wing media critics?

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Bucky doesn’t have any super juice or anything does he? He’s just got a metal arm that’s really strong and as long as the arm does the work, he’s fine. Doesn’t get ripped off his body by the force or anything.

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Bucky had the serum, he kicked people like thirty feet through the air into a jet turbine.

 

I think this serum talk is missing the point a bit, given the themes of the show, I really think you want to avoid a fascist “might makes right” conclusion.

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7 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

Bucky had the serum, he kicked people like thirty feet through the air into a jet turbine.

 

I think this serum talk is missing the point a bit, given the themes of the show, I really think you want to avoid a fascist “might makes right” conclusion.

I think a "might is realistically needed to beat a super powered villain" is my conclusion. I get the whole principal of needing to be inherently a good person but I think this show was a bit of a muddled mess, and worst of all, a bit boring.

Nothing shown here convinced me that anyone other than Steve is truly worthy of being Cap. 

 

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2 hours ago, Alex W. said:

Bucky doesn’t have any super juice or anything does he? He’s just got a metal arm that’s really strong and as long as the arm does the work, he’s fine. Doesn’t get ripped off his body by the force or anything.


He has the best serum that Hydra were able to muddle up, so he’s likely not as strong as the new super soldiers but is able to kick their arses due to being very well trained. The vibranium arm certainly doesn’t hurt either. 

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Bucky had enough serum & training to be able to kick the asses of Cap, Falcon, Iron Man, Black Widow & Black Panther at various times. Now he gets roughed up by a group of angry teenagers with no training & less acting skills

 

Sams biggest problem is Disney will want a big name for their next phase of films. I'd always assumed Chadwick Boseman was set up to be that, but with that not happening & obviously they cant do anything more with RDJ, I wouldn't be surprised if they are politicking ways to bring back Chris Evans as Cap.

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4 hours ago, RubberJohnny said:

Bucky had the serum, he kicked people like thirty feet through the air into a jet turbine.

 

I think this serum talk is missing the point a bit, given the themes of the show, I really think you want to avoid a fascist “might makes right” conclusion.

 

I don't think Sam somehow getting given the serum would have necessarily been at odds with the themes of the show. The Flag Smashers and knock-off Captain America were examples of the dangers of possessing super strength without strong moral principles, whereas Sam is a very Steve Rogers-esque character in that regard.

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1 hour ago, Stoppy2000 said:

I hope Chris Evans never comes back. Just leave that arc as it was. But I can't take this Falcon seriously as a replacement. I suppose you could have him killed off and then Bucky taking over....

I want an old Cap and old Peggy film set in the 70s. Hayley Atwell deserved more screen time in the MCU.

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18 minutes ago, PK said:

I don't think Sam somehow getting given the serum would have necessarily been at odds with the themes of the show.

 

Giving him the serum in order to "be" Captain America would have entirely undermined what arc there was for Sam, I think. Captain America isn't in the top 3 "strongest" Avengers. Less so now the later movies have happened, and even more once things like She-Hulk or whatever have been made. The point of the show was that it wasn't the serum that made Steve Rogers special. Giving him the the jab at the end, before or after the final fight, would have undercut that pretty severely.

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Cap is the shield, values and the symbol, not the specific collection of powers.

 

I think it's good that they're prepared to do something different, everyone jokes that Marvel films are the characters fighting an identical villain, but now people want the heroes to be carbon copies too?

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1 hour ago, Stoppy2000 said:

I hope Chris Evans never comes back. Just leave that arc as it was. But I can't take this Falcon seriously as a replacement. I suppose you could have him killed off and then Bucky taking over....

 

They can't do that now. Imagine the outcry.

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