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The Falcon and The Winter Soldier - on Disney+ from 19 March


Nick R
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4 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

The locker room introduction is absolutely not a villain scene, it shows him as a sympathetic hero who is humble and aware he isn't quite up to the shoes he has to fill

 

Yes absolutely, and the pressure to fill those shoes is making him act quite abrasively towards those who are placing that pressure on him (Bucky and Sam).

 

I'm not a comic book reader, I don't know the background of these characters. He's obviously trying to fill these big shoes and therefore has decided that means he needs to be Billy Big Bollocks, because that's what everyone expects of him due to Steve's legacy.

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9 minutes ago, Popo said:

Yes absolutely, and the pressure to fill those shoes is making him act quite abrasively towards those who are placing that pressure on him (Bucky and Sam).

 

Is he abrasive? The abrasiveness seems to be in the other direction, right? He was trying to be buddy-buddy with them and they were rejecting him, he was trying to help them out and offer them a lift and they rejected it. He helps them out in the police station and they don't thank him for it, etc.

 

They were pretty clear that Zemo and the Flag Smashers were the villains for the series. USAgent will realise that he can't fill the shoes and hand over to Sam, but he'll stay a heroic character throughout.

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24 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

Is he abrasive? The abrasiveness seems to be in the other direction, right? He was trying to be buddy-buddy with them and they were rejecting him, he was trying to help them out and offer them a lift and they rejected it. He helps them out in the police station and they don't thank him for it, etc.

 

They were pretty clear that Zemo and the Flag Smashers were the villains for the series. USAgent will realise that he can't fill the shoes and hand over to Sam, but he'll stay a heroic character throughout.


Yes, that’s exactly right - he tried to be nice and they threw it in his face. He responds to that external pressure by hardening himself and the big bollocks come out (this is coming out all wrong). 
 

Maybe I’m wrong, but I’d love to see him develop into a bad guy who just had to keep doubling down on being a dick because one section of society wants him to be the strong, indefatigable Captain America, while the other refuses to ever accept him. A potent mix of pressure, power and, uh, pissing him off. 
 

A man being told he’ll never be good enough, but full of his own myth. Or I’ve just got it all wrong and he’s Mr Nice Guy. 

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I think he's been fine and not a heel yet. But I do expect things to change (not based on any comics lore that I don't have.)

 

Spoiler

I think, given defeats by the bad guys and repeated cold shoulders by our heroes, that Cap2.0 is going to start to conclude that the difference between him and Steve Rogers isn't his character but his serum.

 

I expect that, either at the behest of the US or on his own volition (or both) Cap 2.0's priority is going to slightly shift from defeating the bad guys to securing some serum.

 

I expect that to cause conflict such that our guys and Cap2.0 fight and eventually Sam concludes Steve Rogers was right and he should take up the shield, and for Bucky to have more faith in Steve's faith in both of them a as result.

 

Because it's either that, or a sort of redux of the first Avengers movie where disconnected heroes learn to work together as a team.

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1 hour ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

Is he abrasive? The abrasiveness seems to be in the other direction, right? He was trying to be buddy-buddy with them and they were rejecting him, he was trying to help them out and offer them a lift and they rejected it. He helps them out in the police station and they don't thank him for it, etc.


I found him extremely abrasive. He may be being polite on paper, but it’s his attitude that bothers me. He seems to expect to be operating on the same level as Sam and Bucky, or possibly even in charge of them. As far as I’m concerned he’s done nothing to earn that, he’s just been handed a shield. He should be asking Sam and Bucky to help him, he should be begging to be their apprentice, they fought Thanos for gods sake. He’s just some dude they threw a uniform on. The idea that he could operate as their equal is incredibly arrogant. 

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Why shouldn't he, though? It's made pretty clear he's an experienced soldier with a strong track record. He's not part of a self-selecting team of semi-criminals that come good occasionally, but why shouldn't he expect to be being treated reasonably?

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From his perspective he tries to help these two weirdos who spend the whole time hurling schoolboy insults at each other like some kind of superhero version of History Today, then they're complete dicks to him from the off and act like he's just shat on their lawn when he just offers them a lift. He'd be pretty justified in wishing the pair of them never came back in the blip.

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That Cap looks ridiculous in his mask. I think it's the nose or something. Also puzzling that he's painted as very much the everyman, then comes off as an ass. Does he have the super juice? Apart from the shield throwing (which in marvel you could probably hand wave away as being strong), it wasn't clear to me, and also not knowing the lore, if they can pop out another captain america, why not just bake a few thousand?

 

Other than that this literally looks like a movie with it's budget, and  it flew by! I was busy watching away and it ended in what felt like 10 minutes!

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28 minutes ago, IcEBuRN said:

Apart from the shield throwing (which in marvel you could probably hand wave away as being strong)

 

As a wise Spider once said: "That thing doesn't obey the laws of physics at all!"

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3 hours ago, Uncle Mike said:

Why shouldn't he, though? It's made pretty clear he's an experienced soldier with a strong track record. He's not part of a self-selecting team of semi-criminals that come good occasionally, but why shouldn't he expect to be being treated reasonably?


Because he’s trying to replace someone from that team of criminals. The government took the shield under false pretences and handed it to one of their stooges. The thing which was most most important to Steve was sticking to his strong moral compass no matter what. A soldier might be like that but being one doesn’t prove anything other than that you’re adept at doing what you’re told. That doesn’t qualify you to be Captain America.

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5 hours ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

I mean he doesn't seem like an asshole? He's nice and supportive and helps the main characters. There's lots of people on ResetERA talking as if he's a big villain and "Homelander-esque" and they must be basing that on comics because there's nothing of that in the series so far. The locker room introduction is absolutely not a villain scene, it shows him as a sympathetic hero who is humble and aware he isn't quite up to the shoes he has to fill. Like, that's actually a far better take from a character conflict perspective, if he was an asshole it becomes easier for them to reject the whole thing, I don't think they're going to burn that down with a heel-turn.

 

It feels like between this and Wandavision, people going off on bizarre tangents ignoring what the series is trying to do with its characters in order to shoehorn things from the comics they're using as inspiration in is going to be a big fandom thing.

He seems like an asshole man. 

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3 hours ago, Broker said:


I found him extremely abrasive. He may be being polite on paper, but it’s his attitude that bothers me. He seems to expect to be operating on the same level as Sam and Bucky, or possibly even in charge of them. As far as I’m concerned he’s done nothing to earn that, he’s just been handed a shield. He should be asking Sam and Bucky to help him, he should be begging to be their apprentice, they fought Thanos for gods sake. He’s just some dude they threw a uniform on. The idea that he could operate as their equal is incredibly arrogant. 

 

3 hours ago, Uncle Mike said:

Why shouldn't he, though? It's made pretty clear he's an experienced soldier with a strong track record. He's not part of a self-selecting team of semi-criminals that come good occasionally, but why shouldn't he expect to be being treated reasonably?


Yes, I completely agree with both your points. From two differing perspectives - that of Sam and Bucky vs Cap 2.0 and Battlestar - we’ve got a classic misunderstanding that’s bound to develop into animus as the show goes on. @Uncle Mike I love your theory, sounds entirely plausible. 

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Mr Walker is clearly set up as an antithesis to Sam, including any and all interactions with the police/authority.

 

Spoiler

not sure I really bought the therapy scene.

 

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On reflection that's one of the things I feel didn't work.

 

Spoiler

While we know that Sam and Bucky antagonise one another, the idea there's actually some animosity between them, enough to be brought up in a therapist session, is a bit out of nowhere. It feels like something the series hasn't quite earned - they go from 0 - 100 in the space of a few minutes in how their relationship is, and felt just slightly off to me.

 

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Spoiler

I didn't buy the odd couple element either. I can see what they're trying to do, but the banter just seemed a little forced.

 

The best bit was definitely "If he was wrong about you, then maybe he was wrong about me" though.

 

Also, chalk me up to another person who doesn't trust Walker. This Cap would have signed up to the Sokovia accords.

 

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I’m with @Uncle Mikehere.

 

Spoiler

Walker is going to realise with each fresh arsekicking he suffers that without some chemical help he isn’t going to be the Captain America everyone wants him to be. Whether that leads him down a darker path but still on the side of ‘good’, or whether he just turns double agent in exchange for some of the Flagsmashers’ serum, remains to be seen, but I can see Sam reclaiming the shield from an ultimately beaten Walker with a “You were never worthy” type burn at some point.

 

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1 hour ago, Chindie said:

On reflection that's one of the things I feel didn't work.

 

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While we know that Sam and Bucky antagonise one another, the idea there's actually some animosity between them, enough to be brought up in a therapist session, is a bit out of nowhere. It feels like something the series hasn't quite earned - they go from 0 - 100 in the space of a few minutes in how their relationship is, and felt just slightly off to me.

 

Pretty much. The shift from the end of the last episode to the start of this one felt really odd: I don’t know I remember the two of them interacting anywhere near enough to buy the relationship.

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Was surprise to learn that the actor plays the new Cap is Kurt Russell’s son. The chin line makes sense and I see the resemblance.

 

He looks 50/50 Goldie Hawn and Kurt! It’s uncanny.

 

He auditioned for Captain America originally and they actually told him he’s got the part but he’ll have to wait 10 years! Talk about planning ahead!

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17 hours ago, Uncle Mike said:

Why shouldn't he, though? It's made pretty clear he's an experienced soldier with a strong track record. He's not part of a self-selecting team of semi-criminals that come good occasionally, but why shouldn't he expect to be being treated reasonably?


I hope at some point Marvel covers in more detail those in between years before the blip.  I assume a lot of Walker’s experience and achievements were in those years when the world was even more in chaos that Sam and Bucky don’t know or recognise, like Sam did with his sister, or with Hayward in Wandavision (they really missed a trick there.). The conflict between those who got snapped and those left behind keep getting brought up but not properly explored.

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There is the theory that, so good I’ll spoiler it 

 

Spoiler

Steve was the man Peggy referred to having married. It’s all one continuity and he just went back, lived the good life, probably had a number of adventures along the way, and by the time of Winter Soldier she was suffering Dementia.

 

I feel almost certain that’s the current canon. Whether or not it’s reverse engineering, was Hayley acting in the moment toward that direction...that’s one for the book I’ll never read one day.

 

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