Jump to content

You may NOT pirate Psp, Vita and PS3


Recommended Posts

Clipper, is this a joke you’re doing? Because the bit I’m objecting to wasn’t just in oversized bold letters in his original post, I specifically quoted that bit. I am finding it very hard to believe you don’t understand what I am talking about here.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Alex W. said:


I’m not asking whether it’s OK to pirate TxK, I couldn’t give less of a shit. I’m asking why on Earth Dudley thinks that when a game stops being available, we should punish (his word) in the harshest ways possible, including losing the rights to the game (his idea).

The point is your example is shit as he has no meaningful rights to that game to lose! Those "rights" were stomped on by a zombie company. TxK is a perfect example of IP trolling to the max and denying people games (like TxK) by sitting on IP they had nothing to do with creating.

 

A large publisher preventing small developers from earning sales on their products they created... now where have we heard that before.

2 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

Clipper, is this a joke you’re doing? Because the bit I’m objecting to wasn’t just in oversized bold letters in his original post, I specifically quoted that bit. I am finding it very hard to believe you don’t understand what I am talking about here.

 

I'll be charitable and assume you didn't mean to post twice in a row to respond to me. I don't appreciate that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, if you don’t think Minter losing the rights to TxK is a problem, do you really think that From Software should lose the rights to three Armored Core titles? Housemarque should lose the rights to Super Stardust? Q to Lumines? Sandlot to EDF? Future lab to Surge? Two dozen microscopic indie devs on top of that should lose the rights to their back catalogue when it goes off sale?

 

Like, this seems like a good solution to you? To anything specific, not even, like something relevant to the conversation? It’s absurd. It’s an angry non sequitur. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Clipper said:

 

I'll be charitable and assume you didn't mean to post twice in a row to respond to me. I don't appreciate that.


I don’t appreciate whatever on Earth this conversation is, but here we are.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's very weird that the angle people have chosen to come at this topic from is one of consumerism. For one, it's very entitled, "No, the game always needs to be for sale somewhere, if I am unable to buy the game, then it needs to be taken away from the creator and given to the true people who appreciate it, the fandom", and that's not even an exaggerated take - it seems to be the argument people are sincerely making.

 

I'm someone who cares about preservation and thinks it's important, but there's a whole bundle of toxic relationships to media and to creators implicit in the stance in here which I'd be scared to try and unpick. And that's before you get into numerous practical considerations, legal issues, multiplatform ports (do CDProjektRed lose Cyberpunk the franchise because they pulled the PS4 version?), it's a non-starter.

Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

I’m asking why on Earth Dudley thinks that when a game stops being available, we should punish (his word) its owners in the harshest ways possible, including losing the rights to the game (his idea).

 

That was Sketch, not Dudley.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

Okay, if you don’t think Minter losing the rights to TxK is a problem,

 

I never said that  I said the fucking opposite it is not my problem if you don't understand it.

 

and with that I am done with this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"But here's a situation that we have never seen before."

Narrator: It was a situation we had seen many times before

 

...

 

"Game studios are uniquely terrible at keeping old works consistently available"

It's significantly harder and more expensive than other media, even when emulation is an option. (I agree that even taking this into account the industry's track record is terrible.)

 

...


I think there's a solid case for pirating out of print digital games for preservation if you're a museum or archive. You might have to go through legal wrangling to make them acessible in future but at least they'll be preserved.

 

I don't think casual piracy of deleted games is a significant problem, unless you're flogging them down the market or something.

 

Commercial availability is not the same thing as preservation.

 

The only real way to ensure preservation over any significant period is for source code to be released. The number of working old consoles (particularly commercially unsuccessful ones) is steadily declining and there's no guarantee that they'll all ever be perfectly (or practically) emulated.


I think there's a related issue of how little value the industry considers handheld games and digital-only console games to have. There are easily hundreds of handheld games that people would happily buy again on modern systems but it's almost completely unheard of for them to get rereleases, compared to home console stuff.

 

p.s. Obligatory "please find better YouTube games critics to watch that fucking Jim Sterling" - there are loads, it's not that hard. Plus you'll soon find your recommendations not filled with hooting outrage clowns pitched at an audience of primary school children. Good luck!

 

p.p.s. Sketch's plan doesn't work either. It turns copyright into a mad hostage situation. Digital store's servers went down for a few days? Too bad, we're taking all your shit forever! Seems JUST A BIT risky for creators. But hey, what do I know, perhaps there are historical situations where countries haven't offered artists a viable legal framework to protect their livelihoods and this has all worked out really well.

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, MK-1601 said:

The only real way to ensure preservation over any significant period is for source code to be released.

Source code alone would be far from enough- nowadays you’d also want the rest of the build toolchain, which will involve proprietary third party tools used under licence, which even the most generous of developers would be in extremely hot water for sharing and may have been modified by the developer such that the “off the peg” version isn’t appropriate. That’s assuming you don’t need the original 2D and 3D art, music and animation assets as well of course- and there’s no guarantee that you don’t.

 

Game preservation in the, “we need to be able to compile this title again for an arbitrary platform at a later date” sense for even a minority of titles is very much pie-in-the-sky and I don’t think we can reasonably expect it in any officially sanctioned sense (god bless those who keep old development builds on some dusty machine in their attic, of course). The equivalent is probably closer to keeping everything to do with shooting Star Wars, from the models to the cast, perfectly preserved so it can be reshot on 16K 3D cameras down the road, rather than keeping the original negatives.

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, MK-1601 said:

Sketch's plan doesn't work either. It turns copyright into a mad hostage situation. Digital store's servers went down for a few days? Too bad, we're taking all your shit forever!

I mean, copyright in many jurisdictions even has provisions in place where if you deliberately give away or even simply decline to enforce some rights, you lose them and can’t claw them back later- I can’t imagine any creator or publisher of anything wanting the default to be, “if you don’t let people buy this for a year, fuck your legal claim to your own work”.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice post @Sketch, although I haven’t read what @Alex W. wrote to know if he deserved that focus. It’s a great idea, and I wish older titles became available in that way. 
 

Personally, I’ve been trying to buy Blur & Pure for the PC recently, there’s absolutely no way to do that - I cannot find a way to purchase a legal copy for the PC. The only legal way to acquire those games would be to buy a secondhand PS3 or Xbox360 and a secondhand physical copy of the game, how crazy is that?

Link to post
Share on other sites

That is all fine on paper, but in practice major publishers have no problem maintaining availability of their software, and would have no trouble complying with the scheme you describe. Look at the list of a little under 200 games that will be “lost” when the PS Stores for those platforms shut down this year - those are exactly the sort of developers who are already at a serious disadvantage. And for them to lose their rights to their work - irrevocably, given how copyright law works - would strip them of the one defensible protection copyright law was created for: protection from publishing businesses with established infrastructure and distribution channels who can take authors’ work and exploit it without agreement or compensation.

 

You are describing a scheme that would be entirely counterproductive. 

 

I’m not the one who called it a hostage situation. That’s not the right metaphor. It’s more like the sword of capitalistic Damocles: monetise thy works, or we will take them from you and find someone who will.

 

Edit - To put it in balder terms, you have come up with one of the few ways I could imagine making our current intellectual property landscape worse. All of the systematic problems that already exist, plus another complex legalistic hazard for anyone who wants to make a buck off their creativity.

 

But hey, it would let some people play games by pressing a button and not spending any money. The consumer is always right, and playing to them definitely hasn’t driven us in to our current nightmare where Disney owns 90% of everything on celluloid or videotape.

Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, AlexM said:

The only legal way to acquire those games would be to buy a secondhand PS3 or Xbox360 and a secondhand physical copy of the game, how crazy is that?


The only “legal” way to play the game is to buy it and the console to play it on. :lol: Imagine!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to keep spinning on this:

 

If a work is never sold, or never sold at cost, does the author immediately relinquish copyright on its creation?

 

If a work is taken and distributed by a third party without authorisation, as with the current fracas about Cthulhu, does that satisfy the distribution requirement?

 

Does it apply per platform?

 

Does it apply per version on a game with multiple releases?

 

How many regions must the work be distributed in?

 

Must online features be available?

 

What if one of the rights holders is deceased?

 

What if one of the rights holders cannot be identified?

 

What if one of the rights holders cannot be located?

 

Is a port on a successor platform accessible?

 

If the game only existed as discrete logic, what level of simulation fidelity is an acceptable approximation?  Or does it need to be available for purchase as the actual electronic device?

 

If the work is made available to purchase but without compensation of the original developer, is that acceptable?

 

Is it acceptable if the price is raised to £1000 per copy?

 

If it’s only available as a print-on-demand physical release?

 

If it is available but the patches aren’t?

 

If it’s only available on the obsolete platform, and no new ones?

 

If no working example of the original hardware exists any more, does the rights holder have to begin manufacturing it themselves? Or is the unplayable software sufficient?

 

Does an NFT stating that the owner has the right to play the game, but which doesn’t include any game code, acceptable as a way of “selling” the game?

 

You don’t seem like a stupid person but I wonder if you really understand what relinquishing copyright, moral rights, and all the rest on our work would mean. I recognise the problems and absurdities you are describing, but your solution isn’t a solution. It’s just another pile of absurdities and problems on top of an already Byzantine system.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Spacehost said:

Source code alone would be far from enough- nowadays you’d also want the rest of the build toolchain, which will involve proprietary third party tools used under licence, which even the most generous of developers would be in extremely hot water for sharing and may have been modified by the developer such that the “off the peg” version isn’t appropriate. That’s assuming you don’t need the original 2D and 3D art, music and animation assets as well of course- and there’s no guarantee that you don’t.

 

Game preservation in the, “we need to be able to compile this title again for an arbitrary platform at a later date” sense for even a minority of titles is very much pie-in-the-sky and I don’t think we can reasonably expect it in any officially sanctioned sense (god bless those who keep old development builds on some dusty machine in their attic, of course). The equivalent is probably closer to keeping everything to do with shooting Star Wars, from the models to the cast, perfectly preserved so it can be reshot on 16K 3D cameras down the road, rather than keeping the original negatives.

Hell, even with source code and the toolchain frozen in time you’ll still need to jump through all sorts of non-trivial hoops to actually get it running.
 

Anyone’s who’s ever tried to write a build procedure for any even reasonably complex piece of software that consistently works over time (ha) and can be handled by a muppet (double ha) with no support the first couple of times (triple ha) as the underlying environment changes will know that.

 

(pretty much any counterexample you’d care to name has someone consistently and continually maintaining it)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

To answer a more specific hypothetical, yes, since the rise of digital stores most small shops do retain the copyright on their software. It’s arguably the greatest thing those stores have done for software. TxK is copyright Llamasoft, to use a specific example. One of the workable definitions of an “indie game” economically rather than stylistically is a game which is self-published, rather than having a publisher.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, footle said:

Hell, even with source code and the toolchain frozen in time you’ll still need to jump through all sorts of non-trivial hoops to actually get it running.
 

Anyone’s who’s ever tried to write a build procedure for any even reasonably complex piece of software that consistently works over time (ha) and can be handled by a muppet (double ha) with no support the first couple of times (triple ha) as the underlying environment changes will know that.

 

(pretty much any counterexample you’d care to name has someone consistently and continually maintaining it)

 


Wouldn’t that still leave you with just a game executable and no assets? Quake II has been open source for years and the assets in the shareware version were always licenced for redistribution but if you want a legally airtight way to play the full game on, say, your Vita, you need to copy the assets from a real copy of the game. (I still have my Xplosiv CD from 2001.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, just to come back around to this, is Sketch seriously saying that Ferrari would relinquish the Ferrari trademark to the public domain, because it was used in Outrun 2 and that game’s been out of print for ten years? If you’re talking about relinquishing all the rights that exist in something, that’s sure one of the intellectual property rights being exploited in that game.

 

Fuck, actually that would be a great way to get Star Wars back in the public’s hands. Or Mickey Mouse. Actually, I’m all for it now. Just do an end run around copyright for everything that has had a piece of licenced shovelware nobody cared enough about to keep on sale.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Does the work even need to legally use it in order for all rights to be revoked?

 

Be right back, going to release a FIFA game for a few minutes just so Konami can use the right names next season.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Alex W. said:


And how many Xbox owners would leave that platform these days?


Given they have access to a sizeable amount of games that have been released for the last 20 years without an arbitrary cutoff date not many I suspect.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, footle said:

Hell, even with source code and the toolchain frozen in time you’ll still need to jump through all sorts of non-trivial hoops to actually get it running.
 

Anyone’s who’s ever tried to write a build procedure for any even reasonably complex piece of software that consistently works over time (ha) and can be handled by a muppet (double ha) with no support the first couple of times (triple ha) as the underlying environment changes will know that.

 

(pretty much any counterexample you’d care to name has someone consistently and continually maintaining it)

 

The struggle is real. Not too long ago I tried to get a game we’d shelved a year or two previous up and running on an iDevice with a newer Mac than we’d previously used, and I could not get the fucking thing to compile,  because umpteen MacOS, XCode and iOS library changes had happened and the version of MacOS I was on couldn’t run the version of XCode with the right libs to compile the game. Either we directed engine programmers to help me integrate two years of changes into the game or we just shrugged and showed a video of the game instead. We chose the latter.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Alex W. said:


The only “legal” way to play the game is to buy it and the console to play it on. :lol: Imagine!


You seem to be missing the point that both of those games were also released on PC, and that is the platform I own and would like to purchase the titles for. Your arrogant response doesn’t put you in a good light, but then your flurry of responses in this thread suggests you’re taking this all a bit too personally.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, AlexM said:


You seem to be missing the point that both of those games were also released on PC, and that is the platform I own and would like to purchase the titles for. Your arrogant response doesn’t put you in a good light, but then your flurry of responses in this thread suggests you’re taking this all a bit too personally.  


Sorry, it’s not meant to be critical of you, it’s just a remarkable reminder of how games distribution and compatibility changed between the start and end of the PS3 generation, that having to have a specific piece of hardware and a specific physical game release is no longer the obvious bare minimum to play a piece of software.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, earlymodernsteve said:

Can't we just agree to wait for the PS3/Vita section on Antstream?

 

Like Antstream will still be around when that's feasible on a commercial level for a non-Sony.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • dumpster changed the title to You may NOT pirate Psp, Vita and PS3

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.