Jump to content
IGNORED

Braid Tugging - Amazon’s Wheel Of Time (occasional book spoilers)


footle
 Share

Recommended Posts

On 18/12/2021 at 08:45, Sirloin said:

I foolishly decided to bash through the books again as I don’t want to start anything new before Christmas. Got through the first 8 in the last two weeks. First few went through pretty quick, and the better bits of 5-7 are the best bits of the series. Book 8 though, sheesh. And there’s like 5 more books of this yet.

 

johnny-johnny5.gif.369d3e2d166943601c7c0a92ef44c3af.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well

 

Spoiler

Good finale, they've simplified some things understandably. The Eye in the book as far as I recall was a well of the male side of the power that hadn't been corrupted. It looks like they made it the actual Bore instead for the show. I liked the snippet of the past showing how advanced they were, however again in the book by the end of the war things should have been far more basic from all the damage. Ishmael was well cast, and the end scene was great.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think all the changes have broken my brain. 

 

Spoiler

I liked the flashback, and the brief glimpse at a high technology society. However, Lews Therin is referred to as the dragon reborn by his wife (?). He's not been reborn yet. So he's just the dragon. Unless they're referring to the cyclical nature of the wheel and know he's the same individual... Dunno.

 

Not spoilering this as I'm confident it's not one: wondering why they still refer to Loial as being one of the Builders when there's no mention of his race building anything so far. In the books they originally built Tar Valon, for instance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, fasteasyfree said:

I think all the changes have broken my brain. 

 

  Hide contents

I liked the flashback, and the brief glimpse at a high technology society. However, Lews Therin is referred to as the dragon reborn by his wife (?). He's not been reborn yet. So he's just the dragon. Unless they're referring to the cyclical nature of the wheel and know he's the same individual... Dunno.

 

Not spoilering this as I'm confident it's not one: wondering why they still refer to Loial as being one of the Builders when there's no mention of his race building anything so far. In the books they originally built Tar Valon, for instance.

 

Spoiler

Yeah there's a dragon every age, in the books Rand even got glimpses of the one before Lews Therin. 

 

Looking forward to seeing more of the foresaken 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, fasteasyfree said:

I think all the changes have broken my brain. 

 

  Hide contents

I liked the flashback, and the brief glimpse at a high technology society. However, Lews Therin is referred to as the dragon reborn by his wife (?). He's not been reborn yet. So he's just the dragon. Unless they're referring to the cyclical nature of the wheel and know he's the same individual... Dunno.

 

Not spoilering this as I'm confident it's not one: wondering why they still refer to Loial as being one of the Builders when there's no mention of his race building anything so far. In the books they originally built Tar Valon, for instance.


They’ve probably just not got to it yet. It’s not as though they’ve even introduced 

Spoiler

The forsaken

yet, and that’s far more important to where the story goes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought it was a load of shite. I liked some of the earlier episodes (4 especially if I remember correctly). There were some big changes but a lot of what it was doing was pretty decent - until this episode. 

 

I did write all this out after watching the episode but because it's turned into a bit of a rant (understatement?) I wasn't going to post it... but there's just so much wrong with this episode. No book spoilers.

 

Spoiler

Straight away in the episode we see the female Aes Sedai calling Lews Therin the Dragon Reborn. He's not the Dragon Reborn. He's the Dragon. Does that make Rand the Dragon Reborn, Reborn then? 

 

(I saw what Captain Novaforce said about there being a Dragon before him. I can't remember that, but I do recall that Lews Therin was just called the Dragon in the book during these prequel prologue scenes. I don't recall him being called TDR after that either, but maybe he was).

 

The next problem is that it was so badly written it completely and utterly failed to set up any stakes or explain WHY Lews Therin wants to attempt such a risky thing. They're losing the war with the Dark One; civilisation is on the brink of collapse and this is a last ditch effort born of desperation. We don't see any of that, just a nice room with flying cars outside (!?) and jokes about the fate of the world being decided in a nursery. 

 

Then there's the part where she says it will lead to the taint of the male side of the source. How does she know that? It's meant to be a surprise that nobody saw coming and wasn't discovered until years later when the male channelers started to go mad, but apparently the female Aes Sedai somehow knew this would happen, tried to talk him out of it (saying it was just "serving his pride", and not a last ditch attempt to save humanity from a war they're losing) and then... she just shrugs and wanders off to let him do it? 

 

Agelmar

 

They butchered him (literally, by a random trolloc at the wall where they made arrow slits big enough for Trollocs to climb though, and figuratively by changing everything about his character and then randomly killing him off). 

 

I did like the inspirational speech he gave where they drew their weapons and charged the wall - where they then dismounted and stabled the horses before climbing up the stairs. That was peak GoT season 8: spectacle over good writing (a theme of this episode)

 

Agelmar is one of the Five Great Captains and considered to be a military genius. You all got that from the show, right? 

 

Egewene/Nynaeve

 

This scene might have been the worst bit. An army of trollocs tens of thousands strong. At least 60 fades. A bigger force than anyone has seen for generations. Wiped out by an Accepted that was kicked out of the tower for not being strong enough, 2 untrained channelers and 2 random wilders found on the streets. Before I get into that, the obvious question is... why didn't they go to the wall with the army? Imagine what they could have done using the one power there in conjunction with the army. 

 

Remember when Moirane was described as being one of the strongest Aes Sedai? Remember how hard it was for her to kill just a few dozen trollocs? Remember the Fall of Menetheren? An event so monumental, so out of the ordinary that it's become a legend. Where Queen Eldrene, the most powerful channeler of her time, a fully trained Aes Sedai in a time where their knowledge and power far eclipsed anyone in the present day barely managed to do the same. Not only did she burn herself out, it also resulted in the destruction of the city of Menetheren (remember how that looked in the earlier episodes?). 

 

Now, Agelmar's sister did die. As did the two random Wilders they found in the city. Nynaeve also somehow sacrificed herself to save Egwene... except apparently she didn't, because Egwene, a random untrained channeler from a village can do what nobody else has done for hundreds of years and either bring someone back to life (literally impossible), or heal someone that became burned out from drawing too much (it's unclear which, although I think it looks like Nynaeve died). So early on in the season on we have Nynaeve, a completely untrained channeler magically saving the lives of multiple, mortally wounded people, we now have Egwene, someone with no talent whatsoever in healing, rediscover an ability lost to the ages to either save someone that has burned out from channeling, or literal resurrection. That definitely won't have lasting consequences to the worlds power structure going forward. 

 

It then creates the complication of if 5 women, none of which are Aes Sedai or have completed their training can utterly obliterate a force of tens of thousands of Trollocs... why do we need the Dragon? There are dozens of fully trained Aes Sedai out there, numerous artefacts that can significantly boost their powers (as we saw when Moiraine gave one to Rand which will "make you 100x stronger"). Just gather everyone up, collect the relics and wander down to the Eye. You'd be done by lunchtime and can have a picnic after you've cleared the blight. 

 

That's why in the book Rand finds a well of untainted Saidin (the male version of the source) in the Eye of the World and uses it to destroy the army. It was a one time use of power, so it doesn't have long term consequences to the world (seriously, nothing should be a threat to Egwene and Nynaeve anymore. They can kill hundreds of trollocs by themselves and bring people back to life.. imagine what they'll do when they've actually been trained!). 

 

It also gives Rand, the Dragon Reborn, something to actually do. Destroying the army demonstrates his power - he does something nobody else is capable of, saves the army and the city and this is the foundation of people starting to believe he really is the Dragon. Instead he just channelled ONCE, waving his hand at the Dark One, breaking a bit of the ground.. and wandering off into the Blight. It sure looks like Egwene or Nynaeve are the Dragon Reborn, doesn't it? Why would anyone believe it's Rand? 

 

This isn't strictly related to this episode but it's also why I hated the change that a woman could be the Dragon Reborn. It undermines everything about the show. Let's say Nynaeve was the Dragon - why would that be a bad thing? Why would she be fated to either destroy the world, or save it? All they'd have to do is train her up to become an Aes Sedai, trundle off to the Eye of the World and boom, job's done. We've already seen how utterly incredible she is at everything she does. 

 

The entire point is that Saidin has been tainted. It's about finding the balance of the male and female sources, and how thanks to that corruption there's a very strong chance the male channeler will go mad. Do you train him up (even though in the books they don't understand how the male source works, because it's use has been outlawed for generations and anyone with such knowledge is long dead), and risk him going mad before the final battle? Or do you do what Moiraine does and hope that even untrained his raw strength will be enough to defeat the dark one. All of that is undermined by the "it could be a woman" change. And don't even get me started on the "maybe all 5 are the Dragon!" nonsense. 

 

I think the created mystery of who is the Dragon is what ruined the adaption. So many important plot points were shifted away from Rand (such as destroying the Trolloc army) to make it look like one of the other characters was the Dragon Reborn (Reborn) instead. 

 

Ta'veren

 

Does anyone who hasn't read the book even know what these are? Because in the show, all 5 of the Emond's field are Ta'veren. Even though Robert Jordan has explicitly stated that Egwene and Nynaeve aren't. It's probably the most significant thing about Mat and Perrin and is the foundation for everything that happens to them, but obviously that has to be changed for the two Mary Sue characters to be Ta'veren as well. Fuck knows why. I guess destroying entire armies and resurrecting people isn't enough for them. 

 

Perrin and the Horn of Valere

 

Does anyone actually who hasn't read the books have any idea what the Horn is or why such important characters would die trying to take it out of the city? 

 

Perrin's been terrible all season. All he does is look sad and hunch over a little bit. Well, that and kill his wife, something they came up with for the TV series. He also apparently is in love with Egwene and perhaps that's why he murdered his seemingly pregnant wife? What a great guy! Really rooting for him now. Oh but he does look pretty sad about it so that's ok. 

 

Poor Loial. Now it's clear why he looked a bit rubbish - rather than spend a lot of money making him look decent they'll just kill him off instead. A fan beloved character dying randomly to Padan Fain and a few Fades. The Ogier's are quite interesting as well. I think they did a bad job of explaining why, but maybe a non book reader can weigh in there. 

 

Moiraine and Rand (and Lan)

 

Moiraine: "We're here"
Rand: "Where's here?"
Moiraine: shrugs "fuck if I know"
Rand: "Oh wait I know"

 

The fuck? If everything on the Eye of the World was destroyed from the Aes Sedai libraries by Darkfriends... how does she even know about it? 

 

The Blight itself was terrible. Where was the threat? All we saw was a random dead kid, Moraine saying "don't touch anything" and then they just go and sit down on a tree to rest and have a chat. Their entire journey here was portrayed as a stroll through a slightly thick, dead forest. That was it. No threats, no danger, no stakes. 

 

Nynaeve tracking Lan - or not, it was Moiraine she tracked. She has a tell, you see. A peg leg maybe, but something so hard to find, so obscure that Lan has never once picked up on it in the YEARS they've travelled together. He's an expert at tracking, possibly aided by his bond with an Aes Sedai, but a random Wisdom from a village with no training or experience notices something. Even though earlier on in the episode (or possibly at the end of the previous episode) she's telling everyone else that they cant follow Moiraine because they have no idea where she went. All that aside, he doesn't even need to track her - he knows she's going to the Eye of the World and in the tv universe, if Moiraine knows where the Eye is then Lan definitely would too, having lived here for years. 

 

Then there's the Dark One teaching Rand to channel... and this is completely wrong as well. He teaches him the methods used to embrace Saidar, the female version of the source. The Male side requires completely different techniques; you don't let it flow through you as you do with Saidar, it's a force trying to overwhelm you that you have to constantly fight to control. This is why the Aes Sedai can't teach male channelers, because they literally don't understand how it works. It's fundamentally different to how they channel. As with them calling Lews Therin the Dragon Reborn, this demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about the source material. These are incredibly basic concepts that they're getting wrong. 

 

Moiraine has now either been stilled or shielded.. either way that's going to present a lot of complications to the story later on. I don't know why women losing their powers has become such a trope recently, but eh. Why not have it happen in yet another series. 

 

Seanchan

 

I'll be vague here obviously, but the final scene... In the books they use a collar and leash (it's a bit more complicated than that) but in the show they changed it to ballgags. Why? 

 

What exactly was the point of creating that tsunami? They really didn't like that little girl did they. There was literally nothing there, just a beach and very high cliffs... and I wonder what will happen to that tsunami when it hits the cliff and rebounds off. 

 

Again, being vague here but the Seanchan don't just kill for the sake of killing. They give people the opportunity to submit first. Unless you're a little girl on a beach apparently.


The sad thing is that this was written by showrunner Rafe Judkins so I don't really any any hope in the series actually becoming a proper adaption of WoT.  

 

I'm obviously struggling to look past how bad the adaption of the books are so I genuinely have no idea if this is actually a good tv program for people that haven't read the books though :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can see I’m just getting glimpses here and there and it’s very different from the books but I suppose I found those bits interesting enough to see the proper background behind them. I really do not have the time to read them though!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Timmo said:

I'm quite tempted to start the audiobooks, they've started releasing them narrated by Rosamund Pike who is lot more palatable than Kate Reading & Michael Kramer.

 

Heh, I found the pair to be fairly well suited to the task.

 

@Laine the audiobooks are definitely worth considering if you're short of time to sit down and read. I spent months listening them during my work commute - when that was a thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 27/12/2021 at 17:02, Radish said:

I thought it was a load of shite. I liked some of the earlier episodes (4 especially if I remember correctly). There were some big changes but a lot of what it was doing was pretty decent - until this episode. 

 

I did write all this out after watching the episode but because it's turned into a bit of a rant (understatement?) I wasn't going to post it... but there's just so much wrong with this episode. No book spoilers.

 

  Hide contents

Straight away in the episode we see the female Aes Sedai calling Lews Therin the Dragon Reborn. He's not the Dragon Reborn. He's the Dragon. Does that make Rand the Dragon Reborn, Reborn then? 

 

(I saw what Captain Novaforce said about there being a Dragon before him. I can't remember that, but I do recall that Lews Therin was just called the Dragon in the book during these prequel prologue scenes. I don't recall him being called TDR after that either, but maybe he was).

 

The next problem is that it was so badly written it completely and utterly failed to set up any stakes or explain WHY Lews Therin wants to attempt such a risky thing. They're losing the war with the Dark One; civilisation is on the brink of collapse and this is a last ditch effort born of desperation. We don't see any of that, just a nice room with flying cars outside (!?) and jokes about the fate of the world being decided in a nursery. 

 

Then there's the part where she says it will lead to the taint of the male side of the source. How does she know that? It's meant to be a surprise that nobody saw coming and wasn't discovered until years later when the male channelers started to go mad, but apparently the female Aes Sedai somehow knew this would happen, tried to talk him out of it (saying it was just "serving his pride", and not a last ditch attempt to save humanity from a war they're losing) and then... she just shrugs and wanders off to let him do it? 

 

Agelmar

 

They butchered him (literally, by a random trolloc at the wall where they made arrow slits big enough for Trollocs to climb though, and figuratively by changing everything about his character and then randomly killing him off). 

 

I did like the inspirational speech he gave where they drew their weapons and charged the wall - where they then dismounted and stabled the horses before climbing up the stairs. That was peak GoT season 8: spectacle over good writing (a theme of this episode)

 

Agelmar is one of the Five Great Captains and considered to be a military genius. You all got that from the show, right? 

 

Egewene/Nynaeve

 

This scene might have been the worst bit. An army of trollocs tens of thousands strong. At least 60 fades. A bigger force than anyone has seen for generations. Wiped out by an Accepted that was kicked out of the tower for not being strong enough, 2 untrained channelers and 2 random wilders found on the streets. Before I get into that, the obvious question is... why didn't they go to the wall with the army? Imagine what they could have done using the one power there in conjunction with the army. 

 

Remember when Moirane was described as being one of the strongest Aes Sedai? Remember how hard it was for her to kill just a few dozen trollocs? Remember the Fall of Menetheren? An event so monumental, so out of the ordinary that it's become a legend. Where Queen Eldrene, the most powerful channeler of her time, a fully trained Aes Sedai in a time where their knowledge and power far eclipsed anyone in the present day barely managed to do the same. Not only did she burn herself out, it also resulted in the destruction of the city of Menetheren (remember how that looked in the earlier episodes?). 

 

Now, Agelmar's sister did die. As did the two random Wilders they found in the city. Nynaeve also somehow sacrificed herself to save Egwene... except apparently she didn't, because Egwene, a random untrained channeler from a village can do what nobody else has done for hundreds of years and either bring someone back to life (literally impossible), or heal someone that became burned out from drawing too much (it's unclear which, although I think it looks like Nynaeve died). So early on in the season on we have Nynaeve, a completely untrained channeler magically saving the lives of multiple, mortally wounded people, we now have Egwene, someone with no talent whatsoever in healing, rediscover an ability lost to the ages to either save someone that has burned out from channeling, or literal resurrection. That definitely won't have lasting consequences to the worlds power structure going forward. 

 

It then creates the complication of if 5 women, none of which are Aes Sedai or have completed their training can utterly obliterate a force of tens of thousands of Trollocs... why do we need the Dragon? There are dozens of fully trained Aes Sedai out there, numerous artefacts that can significantly boost their powers (as we saw when Moiraine gave one to Rand which will "make you 100x stronger"). Just gather everyone up, collect the relics and wander down to the Eye. You'd be done by lunchtime and can have a picnic after you've cleared the blight. 

 

That's why in the book Rand finds a well of untainted Saidin (the male version of the source) in the Eye of the World and uses it to destroy the army. It was a one time use of power, so it doesn't have long term consequences to the world (seriously, nothing should be a threat to Egwene and Nynaeve anymore. They can kill hundreds of trollocs by themselves and bring people back to life.. imagine what they'll do when they've actually been trained!). 

 

It also gives Rand, the Dragon Reborn, something to actually do. Destroying the army demonstrates his power - he does something nobody else is capable of, saves the army and the city and this is the foundation of people starting to believe he really is the Dragon. Instead he just channelled ONCE, waving his hand at the Dark One, breaking a bit of the ground.. and wandering off into the Blight. It sure looks like Egwene or Nynaeve are the Dragon Reborn, doesn't it? Why would anyone believe it's Rand? 

 

This isn't strictly related to this episode but it's also why I hated the change that a woman could be the Dragon Reborn. It undermines everything about the show. Let's say Nynaeve was the Dragon - why would that be a bad thing? Why would she be fated to either destroy the world, or save it? All they'd have to do is train her up to become an Aes Sedai, trundle off to the Eye of the World and boom, job's done. We've already seen how utterly incredible she is at everything she does. 

 

The entire point is that Saidin has been tainted. It's about finding the balance of the male and female sources, and how thanks to that corruption there's a very strong chance the male channeler will go mad. Do you train him up (even though in the books they don't understand how the male source works, because it's use has been outlawed for generations and anyone with such knowledge is long dead), and risk him going mad before the final battle? Or do you do what Moiraine does and hope that even untrained his raw strength will be enough to defeat the dark one. All of that is undermined by the "it could be a woman" change. And don't even get me started on the "maybe all 5 are the Dragon!" nonsense. 

 

I think the created mystery of who is the Dragon is what ruined the adaption. So many important plot points were shifted away from Rand (such as destroying the Trolloc army) to make it look like one of the other characters was the Dragon Reborn (Reborn) instead. 

 

Ta'veren

 

Does anyone who hasn't read the book even know what these are? Because in the show, all 5 of the Emond's field are Ta'veren. Even though Robert Jordan has explicitly stated that Egwene and Nynaeve aren't. It's probably the most significant thing about Mat and Perrin and is the foundation for everything that happens to them, but obviously that has to be changed for the two Mary Sue characters to be Ta'veren as well. Fuck knows why. I guess destroying entire armies and resurrecting people isn't enough for them. 

 

Perrin and the Horn of Valere

 

Does anyone actually who hasn't read the books have any idea what the Horn is or why such important characters would die trying to take it out of the city? 

 

Perrin's been terrible all season. All he does is look sad and hunch over a little bit. Well, that and kill his wife, something they came up with for the TV series. He also apparently is in love with Egwene and perhaps that's why he murdered his seemingly pregnant wife? What a great guy! Really rooting for him now. Oh but he does look pretty sad about it so that's ok. 

 

Poor Loial. Now it's clear why he looked a bit rubbish - rather than spend a lot of money making him look decent they'll just kill him off instead. A fan beloved character dying randomly to Padan Fain and a few Fades. The Ogier's are quite interesting as well. I think they did a bad job of explaining why, but maybe a non book reader can weigh in there. 

 

Moiraine and Rand (and Lan)

 

Moiraine: "We're here"
Rand: "Where's here?"
Moiraine: shrugs "fuck if I know"
Rand: "Oh wait I know"

 

The fuck? If everything on the Eye of the World was destroyed from the Aes Sedai libraries by Darkfriends... how does she even know about it? 

 

The Blight itself was terrible. Where was the threat? All we saw was a random dead kid, Moraine saying "don't touch anything" and then they just go and sit down on a tree to rest and have a chat. Their entire journey here was portrayed as a stroll through a slightly thick, dead forest. That was it. No threats, no danger, no stakes. 

 

Nynaeve tracking Lan - or not, it was Moiraine she tracked. She has a tell, you see. A peg leg maybe, but something so hard to find, so obscure that Lan has never once picked up on it in the YEARS they've travelled together. He's an expert at tracking, possibly aided by his bond with an Aes Sedai, but a random Wisdom from a village with no training or experience notices something. Even though earlier on in the episode (or possibly at the end of the previous episode) she's telling everyone else that they cant follow Moiraine because they have no idea where she went. All that aside, he doesn't even need to track her - he knows she's going to the Eye of the World and in the tv universe, if Moiraine knows where the Eye is then Lan definitely would too, having lived here for years. 

 

Then there's the Dark One teaching Rand to channel... and this is completely wrong as well. He teaches him the methods used to embrace Saidar, the female version of the source. The Male side requires completely different techniques; you don't let it flow through you as you do with Saidar, it's a force trying to overwhelm you that you have to constantly fight to control. This is why the Aes Sedai can't teach male channelers, because they literally don't understand how it works. It's fundamentally different to how they channel. As with them calling Lews Therin the Dragon Reborn, this demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about the source material. These are incredibly basic concepts that they're getting wrong. 

 

Moiraine has now either been stilled or shielded.. either way that's going to present a lot of complications to the story later on. I don't know why women losing their powers has become such a trope recently, but eh. Why not have it happen in yet another series. 

 

Seanchan

 

I'll be vague here obviously, but the final scene... In the books they use a collar and leash (it's a bit more complicated than that) but in the show they changed it to ballgags. Why? 

 

What exactly was the point of creating that tsunami? They really didn't like that little girl did they. There was literally nothing there, just a beach and very high cliffs... and I wonder what will happen to that tsunami when it hits the cliff and rebounds off. 

 

Again, being vague here but the Seanchan don't just kill for the sake of killing. They give people the opportunity to submit first. Unless you're a little girl on a beach apparently.


The sad thing is that this was written by showrunner Rafe Judkins so I don't really any any hope in the series actually becoming a proper adaption of WoT.  

 

I'm obviously struggling to look past how bad the adaption of the books are so I genuinely have no idea if this is actually a good tv program for people that haven't read the books though :D

 

I just caught up with the finale yesterday - as a non book reader, I enjoyed the finale quite a bit.  Overall I thought the programme sagged for pacing in the middle, then seemed to rush a lot at the very end.  

 

But I enjoyed it and look forward to series 2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.