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26 minutes ago, Pelekophoros said:

They've explicitly said in other places they will not do Day One releases as a strategy as per MS' offering. 

To be clear, I meant general day-one releases as have become common on Game Pass. Games like Tunic, Weird West, etc. I'd argue those have ended up being the real boon of the service rather than Microsoft's first-party commitments.

 

For the foreseeable Sony have zero reason to add their big budget first-party releases to a subscription service at launch. They're clearly aiming for something akin to the split between theatrical and home releases of movies, which makes sense given the bulk of a game's profit will be made at launch before discounting, second-hand sales, etc. Maybe in a few years they'll be pushed to reconsider, but once you go down that route you can't really retreat from it so I'm sure they'll leave it until the last moment.

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In order for Sony to pull off a Gamepass equivalent, they’d need to burn through multiple years of cash to establish a loss leader, like MS have done over the last few years (and it’s still questionable wether GP has made an actual profit yet…).


That’s only been possible for Xbox with the deep pockets of MS, all funded via Windows and MS Office sales rather than their gaming division. Something which Sony does not have the luxury of.

 

As others have said, Sony’s gaming model is making a profit for them right now with premium games sold at RRP, similar to Nintendo, so they have a sound business model that doesn’t really need changing yet. This PSNow rebranding is just them setting a solid foundation in place, in case they have to move towards this style of service in the future.

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Yeah, Phil Spencer is very careful in his wording with a lot of things. 😄 He only says it’s sustainable, not profitable. 
 

They are aiming for a much larger audience in the future before it becomes profitable.

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6 hours ago, Malc said:

As others have said, Sony’s gaming model is making a profit for them right now with premium games sold at RRP, similar to Nintendo, so they have a sound business model that doesn’t really need changing yet. This PSNow rebranding is just them setting a solid foundation in place, in case they have to move towards this style of service in the future.

Yep this is how I see it, and the danger is that just like PSNow, it will largely be ignored. 
 

I also wonder if they got the tier system the wrong way around or whether it’s necessary at all. Clearly the USP of this new service is the legacy games (PS1, PS2, PSP) but they are putting a barrier in the way with that second tier. 

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10 hours ago, rafaqat said:

 

That's decent.  Is that available at the lowest tier or one of the higher tiers?

I'm holding out on buying hardware just yet so if it has streaming to Ps4/PC I think for me it'll be a "good thing"

 

Again, they've specifically said the middle tier up. It's worth reading their blog post, it has some answers.

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9 hours ago, Ferine said:

To be clear, I meant general day-one releases as have become common on Game Pass. Games like Tunic, Weird West, etc. I'd argue those have ended up being the real boon of the service rather than Microsoft's first-party commitments.

 

 

Ah, that's fair. I'm not sure how you announce that as a strategy (MS just kinds did it) and there's definitely a risk you create an arms war via linked exclusivity. Christ knows how many smaller games MS is bank rolling already in that way (Unpacking comes to mind). 

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36 minutes ago, Pelekophoros said:

 

Huh?


well, it occurs to me, most companies make an announcement, you read it, and responses fall into two camps”

 

this is a good thing

this is a bad thing

 

both offered with reasoning.

 

with Sony announcements, it’s very much more

 

is this a good thing?

is this a bad thing?

what about x?

what about y?

it’s not like z!

 

and I see Sony being bullied into delivering a million different solutions (aka tiers) to fit.

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5 minutes ago, SeanR said:


well, it occurs to me, most companies make an announcement, you read it, and responses fall into two camps”

 

this is a good thing

this is a bad thing

 

both offered with reasoning.

 

with Sony announcements, it’s very much more

 

is this a good thing?

is this a bad thing?

what about x?

what about y?

it’s not like z!

 

and I see Sony being bullied into delivering a million different solutions (aka tiers) to fit.

3 tiers . Like Netflix . Or Microsoft .

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Pelekophoros said:

 

It's not launched. They've explicitly said what it means for people on the lowest tier. Yep we're waiting on the detailed list. They've explicitly said what existing PS+ becomes. 

What I meant is announcement... Like mentioned I think its just an announcement in before the new financial year starts. However given it is launching in what 2-3 months you'd expect they'd have some sort of line up of games named...and what exactly we will be expecting on each tier in terms of example games? Maybe I'm expecting too much... :)  All will be revealed at some point. Just wish at times they would just announce things a bit closer to launch with more details of what the product offering is. 

 

Anyway.... 

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32 minutes ago, MattyP said:

However given it is launching in what 2-3 months you'd expect they'd have some sort of line up of games named...and what exactly we will be expecting on each tier in terms of example games?

In this case I think there's a good reason Sony would want to keep quiet: if you let people know that Deathloop or whatever will be part of the service, they'll be less inclined to buy that game for the next couple of months. So whilst PlayStation might've needed to announce the existence of the subscription on a particular schedule, their publishing partners likely wouldn't be thrilled at the catalogue being revealed so far ahead of time.

 

Of course the retro stuff is a bit different, as a lot of those games probably aren't available to otherwise buy. Maybe they'll talk about that aspect a bit sooner, but I'm not holding my breath.

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10 minutes ago, Ferine said:

In this case I think there's a good reason Sony would want to keep quiet: if you let people know that Deathloop or whatever will be part of the service, they'll be less inclined to buy that game for the next couple of months. So whilst PlayStation might've needed to announce the existence of the subscription on a particular schedule, their publishing partners likely wouldn't be thrilled at the catalogue being revealed so far ahead of time.

 

Absolutely this. There is zero chance of me buying Returnal, which is on sale again in the Spring sale this week. I expect my PSN expenditure to drop to absolute zero while I wait to find out what's on this service now.

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3 minutes ago, Pelekophoros said:

 

Absolutely this. There is zero chance of me buying Returnal, which is on sale again in the Spring sale this week. I expect my PSN expenditure to drop to absolute zero while I wait to find out what's on this service now.

 

Related, I was talking to a friend who has XSX & XGP, he asked what games I was playing & I replied Elden Ring. "I don't want to get that, I'm waiting for it to appear on XGP".

 

I wonder how many xboxes are just XGP machines now.

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22 minutes ago, Giddas said:

 

Related, I was talking to a friend who has XSX & XGP, he asked what games I was playing & I replied Elden Ring. "I don't want to get that, I'm waiting for it to appear on XGP".

 

I wonder how many xboxes are just XGP machines now.

 

Well, mine and my lads for sure. He buys the occasional game with birthday vouchers and the like, but otherwise him and his mates only play XGP games. Can you imaging being a kid and having that? Incredible.

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56 minutes ago, Giddas said:

 

Related, I was talking to a friend who has XSX & XGP, he asked what games I was playing & I replied Elden Ring. "I don't want to get that, I'm waiting for it to appear on XGP".

 

I wonder how many xboxes are just XGP machines now.

 

At a guess, fewer machines that those owned by gamers who think "christ I've got a load of good stuff and I've saved loads, so absolutely I can splash out for something as good as Elden Ring".

 

MS presented data on this really recently - they officially said that folks with GP seem to spend more time playing games, and spend more in the process - I can't fathom why this is continually ignored by people who apprently seem to know the business and financials better than MS themselves. Like this is some long-term philantropic venture they are on purely for the good of gamers who never spend any money with them.

 

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/blogs/in-depth-game-pass-stats-probed-deconstructed

 

75f6bc22-df48-4807-9121-9ef278fe6f98_600

3d1fbee5-7421-49b7-8a1a-6659d99ef82d_800

 

 

It's also well worth realising, that even just a "GP box" is value add for MS - 25 millions subscribers at even $5 a month gives you a $125m a month  ($1.5bn a year) warchest to work with even if you sell absolutely nothing else at all to them (but you're going to sell them headsets and controllers even if they don't buy more games).

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8 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

At a guess, fewer machines that those owned by gamers who think "christ I've got a load of good stuff and I've saved loads, so absolutely I can splash out for something as good as Elden Ring".

 

MS presented data on this really recently - they officially said that folks with GP seem to spend more time playing games, and spend more in the process - I can't fathom why this is continually ignored by people who apprently seem to know the business and financials better than MS themselves. Like this is some long-term philantropic venture they are on purely for the good of gamers who never spend any money with them.

 

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/blogs/in-depth-game-pass-stats-probed-deconstructed

 

75f6bc22-df48-4807-9121-9ef278fe6f98_600

3d1fbee5-7421-49b7-8a1a-6659d99ef82d_800

 

 

It's also well worth realising, that even just a "GP box" is value add for MS - 25 millions subscribers at even $5 a month gives you a $125m a month  ($1.5bn a year) warchest to work with even if you sell absolutely nothing else at all to them.

 

That's unsurprising, taking the mean average. Highest spenders will have XGP AND spend a lot outside that.

 

As for why would MS subsidize it, you obviously haven't seen how other large companies will take a loss on parts of their business to establish market share.

I'm particularly thinking of them turning a blind eye to the gold conversion, which I've used myself. You would expect just like Netflix making noises about account sharing that this will end at some point.

 

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I have not bought an Xbox game with hard cash this generation.  Bought Elden Ring day 1 with MS points, and will have enough built up to do the same with Lego Star Wars next week.

 

Only games I buy now are the big Sony and Nintendo exclusives, and even then I am tending to buy most of the Sony Games second hand (Usually via trading forum on here), as I resent the £70 quid markup.

 

So yep Nintendo is basically getting my money these days.

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14 minutes ago, Giddas said:

thinking of them turning a blind eye to the gold conversion, which I've used myself. 

 

You think MS are 'turning a blind eye' to that, lol. How amateur do you think they are? It's all planned in, it's not some 'mistake' we're all secretly in on (but they've not spotted yet so shhhhh lads). They know that bringing you into the ecosystem is well worth it for them even at that level (see the fact that a member spends more with them in the data above). The idea it's costing them and they are just totally carrying on and ignorning it, is mental. Corps like that *pore* over the data, they know what's going on. They know more about your buying habits than you do in all likelihood.

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3 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

You think MS are 'turning a blind eye' to that, lol. How amateur do you think they are? It's all planned in, it's not some 'mistake' we're all secretly in on (but they've not spotted yet so shhhhh lads). They know that bringing you into the ecosystem is well worth it for them even at that level (see the fact that a member spends more with them in the data above). The idea it's costing them and they are just totally carrying on and ignorning it, is mental. Corps like that *pore* over the data, they know what's going on. They know more about your buying habits than you do in all likelihood.

 

"bringing you into the ecosystem" = building market share, that's exactly what I'm saying FFS!

 

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1 hour ago, Pelekophoros said:

 

Absolutely this. There is zero chance of me buying Returnal, which is on sale again in the Spring sale this week. I expect my PSN expenditure to drop to absolute zero while I wait to find out what's on this service now.

No, buy it, seriously.

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56 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

At a guess, fewer machines that those owned by gamers who think "christ I've got a load of good stuff and I've saved loads, so absolutely I can splash out for something as good as Elden Ring".

 

MS presented data on this really recently - they officially said that folks with GP seem to spend more time playing games, and spend more in the process - I can't fathom why this is continually ignored by people who apprently seem to know the business and financials better than MS themselves. Like this is some long-term philantropic venture they are on purely for the good of gamers who never spend any money with them.

 

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/blogs/in-depth-game-pass-stats-probed-deconstructed

 

75f6bc22-df48-4807-9121-9ef278fe6f98_600

3d1fbee5-7421-49b7-8a1a-6659d99ef82d_800

 

 

It's also well worth realising, that even just a "GP box" is value add for MS - 25 millions subscribers at even $5 a month gives you a $125m a month  ($1.5bn a year) warchest to work with even if you sell absolutely nothing else at all to them (but you're going to sell them headsets and controllers even if they don't buy more games).

 

I don't doubt their stats but as presented it's important to note they tell us only that Game Pass subscribers spend more than non-subscribers.

 

We don't know (from this) if each GP sub is spending more or less on gaming (outside of or combined with GP cost) than they were before. They could still be spending less than before but more than those who don't subscribe. So if each non-sub subscribes that doesn't mean they suddenly start spending more, their spending outside of it would likely drop too.

 

Basically, it's possible that mostly more "hardcore" gamers  are GP subscribers and they've always spent more money than "non-hardcore" gamers. The real test is the way their spending habits have changed as individuals (or a group) and how they compare.

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25 minutes ago, Giddas said:

"bringing you into the ecosystem" = building market share, that's exactly what I'm saying FFS!

 

 

I think the key difference is, unless I'm mistaken, you think they are doing this and taking a hit (loss-leading). Whereas, I think it's likely they've mapped this out and it's a net plus to the business even now.

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8 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

We don't know (from this) if each GP sub is spending more or less on gaming (outside of or combined with GP cost) than they were before. They could still be spending less than before but more than those who don't subscribe.

 

But they were previously not subscribed (so they were in the non GP bucket), and then when they are, they spend more (on average). They know what people who sub spend, and what people who are not subbed spend. They've got both sides of the data at their fingertips.

 

Obviously looking at averages is going to mean you get people on the extremes - but the data is there - MS getting you to spot their 'error' and 'get one over on them with the £1 trick' means they get your £1 +  you are, on average, likely to spend more with them than you were before.

 

Audience A: Does not subscribe = spends X

Audience B: Pays £1 to subscribe = spends X+5%

 

Clearly B is worth more to MS (instantly in terms of the sub, and long-term in terms of the revenue) - it's not really the £1 they are chasing (but the billions it brings in aren't exactly a bother).

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2 hours ago, JPL said:

Aren’t we supposed to be getting another couple of announcements today?

 

Three announcements were rumoured for this week. It has been suggested the three announcements were the three tiers of the new PS+, and not PS+ and two other things.

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