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Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness - May 2022


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1 minute ago, Hexx said:

There's a huge disconnect between where we leave Wanda at the end of WV and where she is at the start of DS2.

It's a journey that arguably "makes sense" but we're told not shown

 

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Her study of the Darkhold "corrupts" her. It's never really explained what this means but it all happens off screen

She finds out her invented kids are real in other (every?) universe

She 'dreams' of her invented kids real alternatives every night.

 

This pushes her from "can't control an entire town for a fantasy" to "can take one life to have her new reality' (and keep it safe. That's why she wants the power rather than AC's help) - might be 2 lives as its not clear where the Wanda she'll replace will go.

 

 

 

 

I dunno

 

Spoiler

The end credits of Wandavision show she hasn't quit magic and even if she was studying a non evil spell book, then you aren't left with the impression that she is now perfectly fine and just learning new spells to go help the Avengers save cats from trees.

 

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Spoiler

Way more than that:

 

Other Strange.

Most of the guardians and students of the mystic arts.

The guards, staff, scientists and board members of the Illuminati

Nearly Wong

 

She’s got a higher body count than the Terminator and Robocop combined. And that’s not counting anything leading up to the movie, or the ones the eye monster would have got if Strange hadn’t intervened. She’s willing to kill anyone and anything that obstructs her, although she gives a few of them a chance to get out of the way.

 

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10 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

If Wanda’s not meant to be sympathetic, they wasted an awful lot of that series and its cast telling the audience she is.
 

Not that Wandavision’s got some perfect story and character arc figured out - it’s lumbering on top of stumbling really. But it’s hard to square a show that ends with her sitting in the ruins of tragic hubris trying to figure out what to do next, and a movie where she’s seemingly concluded that actually she was right in the first place.
 

She works fine as a grief-deranged movie villain, and who in a delicious end-of-movie turn realises the bitter irony in her pursuit, and so on. But you can’t honestly look at the film and the series and go “yeah, that journey paid off”.

 

Spoiler

Oh yeah, I'm not saying it has been handled particularly well (hasn't Raimi said he never saw the series as he would already have been in pre-production or something?)

 

But she does spend most of WV getting more angry at interference from others and entitlement at what is hers, only to then turn sharply into "I better give this up" - but again, that's more because she is caught. We don't see any remorse or regret, exemplified by her treatment of Agatha.

 

I can't remember if the multiverse is mentioned (either specifically or in passing) in any way during WV, which would at least start the ball rolling as to why she should want to have the book?

 

The fact most of the talk about this film is not around the main character is quite telling. Strange is almost peripheral to the whole story. 

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Just now, Ork1927 said:

 

I dunno

 

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The end credits of Wandavision show she hasn't quit magic and even if she was studying a non evil spell book, then you aren't left with the impression that she is now perfectly fine and just learning new spells to go help the Avengers save cats from trees.

 


Even if she was learning to conjure The Trombone That Makes You Shit Yourself, at least it wouldn’t have been an urgent and immediate back-pedal.

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1 minute ago, Gabe said:

 

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Oh yeah, I'm not saying it has been handled particularly well (hasn't Raimi said he never saw the series as he would already have been in pre-production or something?)

 

But she does spend most of WV getting more angry at interference from others and entitlement at what is hers, only to then turn sharply into "I better give this up" - but again, that's more because she is caught. We don't see any remorse or regret, exemplified by her treatment of Agatha.

 

I can't remember if the multiverse is mentioned (either specifically or in passing) in any way during WV, which would at least start the ball rolling as to why she should want to have the book?

 

The fact most of the talk about this film is not around the main character is quite telling. Strange is almost peripheral to the whole story. 


Nobody’s saying it’s physically impossible for it to happen, sure. You could imagine a Wanda doing that, much as you could imagine one that knocked it on the head and took up bee keeping, or started selling cursed objects, or something. The objection is that in that wide parameter space of narratively justifiable moves, generally having a character do a complete 180 in goals without any external or internal driving force isn’t considered one of the classic tricks.

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2 minutes ago, Alex W. said:
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Way more than that:

 

Other Strange.

Most of the guardians and students of the mystic arts.

The guards, staff, scientists and board members of the Illuminati

Nearly Wong

 

She’s got a higher body count than the Terminator and Robocop combined. And that’s not counting anything leading up to the movie, or the ones the eye monster would have got if Strange hadn’t intervened. She’s willing to kill anyone and anything that obstructs her, although she gives a few of them a chance to get out of the way.

 

 

Yeah but 

 

Spoiler

That's their fault for not getting out way. She tries to be "reasonable" to Strange before that 1st battle.

She massively escalates during the film sure - but I thought that was meant to be her being corrupted the Darkholdt. Or the Darkhold....temple? rather than she was on murderpages from the start.

 

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The only part of the arc that didn't ring true to me was how Vision was nowhere. So who's the father? The kids are the ones from Wandavision, so it must be Vision. Was he killed fighting Thanos in the other universes too? I understand that Vision would be another element in an already packed movie and his inclusion would pose its own problems (eg. he would want to protect 'his' Wanda), so I can see why he wasn't there, but it's surprising that he wasn't mentioned in dialogue, whether from the alternate Wanda or our Wanda, who appears to have completely got over her massive grief at his death with no subsequent mention of it.

 

That being said, I did really enjoy the film. It didn't quite develop into the out and out classic that the stellar first 30 minutes suggested it would be, but it's another strong entry in Phase 4 following No Way Home. There doesn't seem to be any big team-up brewing, but maybe there are nointentionally  Avengers plans for this phase. Maybe that'll be left until after Fantastic Four, when Dr Doom should be far enough removed in terms of 'time-since-Endgame' from the potentially similar Thanos.

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Just now, Hexx said:

 

Yeah but 

 

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That's their fault for not getting out way. She tries to be "reasonable" to Strange before that 1st battle.

She massively escalates during the film sure - but I thought that was meant to be her being corrupted the Darkholdt. Or the Darkhold....temple? rather than she was on murderpages from the start.

 


I don’t see how any of that is due to “corruption”, which always seems like a hand wave for “the character does this because reasons”. She’s dramatised as really wanting this thing, and she’s angry when people don’t let her get the thing, and she hurts them for it. You don’t see her really have any internal conflict over it.

 

Also she was very cavalier with the New Yorkers and she absolutely was not reasonable with all those poor robots.

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1 minute ago, Eighthours said:

The only part of the arc that didn't ring true to me was how Vision was nowhere. So who's the father? The kids are the ones from Wandavision, so it must be Vision. Was he killed fighting Thanos in the other universes too? I understand that Vision would be another element in an already packed movie and his inclusion would pose its own problems (eg. he would want to protect 'his' Wanda), so I can see why he wasn't there, but it's surprising that he wasn't mentioned in dialogue, whether from the alternate Wanda or our Wanda, who appears to have completely got over her massive grief at his death with no subsequent mention of it.


That bit I was willing to forgive as storytelling efficiency. Like, why does she have the same house, in the same town? Well, you need the audience to grasp quickly what the situation is, and everyone who has seen the TV show immediately gets what a loving, idyllic family paradise those lives are. It’s like how someone’s ancestor in a time travel show always looks like them and has those personality traits, it’s unlikely but it keeps things moving.

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1 hour ago, Alex W. said:

She works fine as a grief-deranged movie villain, and who in a delicious end-of-movie turn realises the bitter irony in her pursuit, and so on. But you can’t honestly look at the film and the series and go “yeah, that journey paid off”.

 

I get the feeling they pivoted pretty hard after everyone had the opposite reaction to the WV ending than they anticipated.

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  • Doctor Shark changed the title to Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness - May 2022
1 hour ago, PK said:

I took Wanda's development between the end credits scene of Wandavision and this film to be:

 

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- She starts using the Darkhold to dreamwalk, to temporarily see her kids in other realities

 

- Rather than making things better for her, this just prolongs her trauma and degrades her mental health ('corrupts' her)

 

- She eventually, somehow, finds out about America Chavez's power and decides that these brief, vicarious periods with her kids in other realities are not enough, she needs to be physically with them for good

 

- This drives her to repeat her destructive behaviour from Wandavision

 

It's a shame they didn't bother to actually film any of this, but I think there's just enough of it hinted at for it to land well enough. There's a post-bereavement drug abuse metaphor going on which I think works quite well (and for reasons I've banged on about in various other threads ad nauseum, resonates with me).

 

 

They've got form for it though - Thor's main lesson he learns during the course of Ragnarok is that he can channel the power within him without the use of a weapon, and is actually more powerful without one. He then spends the entirety of Infinity War trying to obtain a weapon to channel his power.

 

That last point is not true. The purpose of Stormbreaker was to be able to defeat the Infinity Gauntlet and stones.

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4 minutes ago, drmick said:

That last point is not true. The purpose of Stormbreaker was to be able to defeat the Infinity Gauntlet and stones.

 

Yeah, that's the plot justification. But it does feel like it's going back over ground that was already resolved in Ragnarok's emotional/character arc.

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I am really sorry for jumping in like a philistine but here we go.

 

I watched many marvel universe films in order and lost interest as they just don’t work for me outside of the ones that have a real spark to them. So guardians of the galaxy(Gunn?) and Thor ragnarok (taika waititi) both appeal massively and I’m looking forward to love and thunder.

 

I am also a Sam raimi fan when he is given latitude to stamp his directorial touch on a film. From evil dead through dark man etc whether successful or not they are bonkers Sam raimi films!

 

So is this a SAM RAIMI film? Are his fingerprints all over this with visual style and crazy editing etc or has he been marvel-ised

 

i wouldn’t ask but he hasn’t made a film In so long I can’t help but think the worst! 

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1 hour ago, Clipper said:

I am really sorry for jumping in like a philistine but here we go.

 

I watched many marvel universe films in order and lost interest as they just don’t work for me outside of the ones that have a real spark to them. So guardians of the galaxy(Gunn?) and Thor ragnarok (taika waititi) both appeal massively and I’m looking forward to love and thunder.

 

I am also a Sam raimi fan when he is given latitude to stamp his directorial touch on a film. From evil dead through dark man etc whether successful or not they are bonkers Sam raimi films!

 

So is this a SAM RAIMI film? Are his fingerprints all over this with visual style and crazy editing etc or has he been marvel-ised

 

i wouldn’t ask but he hasn’t made a film In so long I can’t help but think the worst! 


its certainly not a Taika waititi film, a Chloe Zhao film, or as directorially insipid as No Way Home.

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Oh no! We’re finally talking about 

Spoiler

The villain

In a marvel film, therefore it must be bad.

 

as opposed to, why are 

Spoiler

The villains

In marvel films so pointless and bad?

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1 hour ago, Clipper said:

I am also a Sam raimi fan when he is given latitude to stamp his directorial touch on a film. From evil dead through dark man etc whether successful or not they are bonkers Sam raimi films!

 

So is this a SAM RAIMI film? Are his fingerprints all over this with visual style and crazy editing etc or has he been marvel-ised

 

i wouldn’t ask but he hasn’t made a film In so long I can’t help but think the worst! 

 

Yes, 100%. Every third or fourth shot is a Dutch angle, the editing is almost exhaustingly frenetic and I guarantee you'll have a massive grin on your face for the last 10 or 15 mins. There's a few scenes where they have to slow things down and deliver the standard Marvel exposition but they don't happen frequently enough to feel like they're watering down his style.

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6 hours ago, Gabe said:

 

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Oh yeah, I'm not saying it has been handled particularly well (hasn't Raimi said he never saw the series as he would already have been in pre-production or something?)

 

But she does spend most of WV getting more angry at interference from others and entitlement at what is hers, only to then turn sharply into "I better give this up" - but again, that's more because she is caught. We don't see any remorse or regret, exemplified by her treatment of Agatha.

 

I can't remember if the multiverse is mentioned (either specifically or in passing) in any way during WV, which would at least start the ball rolling as to why she should want to have the book?

 

The fact most of the talk about this film is not around the main character is quite telling. Strange is almost peripheral to the whole story. 

 

Spoiler

In the post-credit scene, isn’t she using astral projection to read the book while her physical body does other things? Which is what we see Dr Strange doing during the first movie - in which it’s explained by The Ancient One that astral projection is a form of multiversal travel, so the multiverse was sort of hinted at in Wandavision, in a roundabout way, yes.

 

This is an interesting conversation. I didn’t get remorse or a desire for penitence for the terrible things Wanda did in WV;

 

Spoiler

After her fight with Agatha she becomes more powerful, and while she does release her hold on the town after a heartbreaking farewell with Vision, and the realisation that what she had was never real, she becomes completely broken - any sense of hope of desire to make things better is gone. 

 

Let’s be honest - we’ve all done or said things we knew was bad or hurtful, but because of other people’s reactions, we have actually doubled down on it, rather than apologise. I think a broken, resented Wanda left Westview with the intention of becoming the all-powerful Scarlet Witch. This time they’ll see! This time they’ll pay! 

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6 hours ago, Alex W. said:

Also she was very cavalier with the New Yorkers and she absolutely was not reasonable with all those poor robots.


:lol:

 

You mean,

 

Spoiler

The Ultron robots? 


 

I wonder what the back-story there is? Probably nothing more than yet another visual reference to What If?, of which there were loads. 

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I was quite anxious about the emphasis on horror in discussions about this film, because I do not get on with jump scares. I don't find them fun at all, and I enjoy scenes less when I'm distracted by worrying that one might arrive at any moment.

 

The telegraphed ones are one thing, but my real worry was that Raimi would stick one in out of nowhere in the middle of a quiet scene, like that one Green Goblin pop-up he put in the first Spider-Man. (Or, for that matter, Miss Minutes at the start of Loki S1E6!)

 

Fortunately it turned out there was nothing like that; it was pretty clear when each of them was coming. There was nothing on the level of, say, that famous one in Jaws, or Bilbo Baggins lunging towards the One Ring.

 

---


I'm very glad that this sequel builds on what was shown with Strange's fight against Thanos in Infinity War, by depicting magical fights in more imaginative ways than just conjuring weapons for doing martial arts:

 

Spoiler

Battling via musical notes! A cloak made out of tormented spirits! :wub:

 

VERY SPOILERY stuff about one character:

 

Spoiler

The most emotional moment in the film was Xavier's line: "Just because someone stumbles and loses their way doesn't mean they're lost forever." That sounded familiar enough for it to give me a lump in my throat, even though I admit I couldn't remember where exactly it was from! (I vaguely recognised it as something he says to Wolverine at some point; but it turns out it's Stewart to McAvoy in DOFP.)

 

Also, the musical sting that accompanied his arrival was listed in the credits as "X-Men '97 theme". I wondered if that was a typo and was meant to read "'X-Men 92", but I'd completely forgotten that they'd announced a Disney+ revival of the '90s cartoon, which will be called "X-Men '97".

 

 

On the ending and credits scene:

 

Spoiler

I found it very jarring to go from the ending of the main film (third eye revealed with an ELECTRIC GUITAR SQUEAL) to the mid-credits (which began by repeating an almost identical scene of Strange walking down the street, and again concludes by revealing his third eye, except now he seems to have come to terms with it). That repetition of location and action made if feel indecisive - as if they shot two alternate scenes, and they couldn't decide which to include, so they ended up throwing both in there.

 

Normally I think Marvel are pretty good at judging which "endings" they put before, during, and after the credits of their films; but in this case, the pair felt misjudged. Possibly the most awkward placement since Thor: The Dark World relegated its Thor/Jane reunion to its post-credits.

 

(Of course, since this is a film about the multiverse, it could be that the Strange shown in the mid-credits isn't "ours" - I forget what exactly the dialogue was there.)

 

 

Annoying comics reader continuity pedantry:

 

Spoiler

Between Spider-Man: Far From Home and this, why do they keep insisting on designating the MCU as universe 616, when that number is already taken by the comics' Marvel universe? Plus, Into the Spider-Verse features yet another Earth-616!

 

OK, it's possible to come up with headcanon explanations: in FFH the number was spoken by someone who was making up the whole thing. And in Multiverse of Madness, the universe designation scheme is done by an organisation that's within one of the universes, not one that has a grand overview of all of them (as in, say, Rick & Morty).

 

But as Futurama taught us: what's the point of giving names and numbers to universes, realities, dimensions, and timelines if you don't keep them consistent? :quote:

 

 

Wandavision remains my favourite thing in Phase 4 so far (yeah, the ending fizzled out, but the journey up to that point was delightful). But of the films, this is definitely my favourite MCU since cinemas reopened. I know it's one for the MCU ranking thread, but for me Phase 4 goes:

  1. Wandavision
  2. Dr Strange in the Multiverse of Madness
  3. Spider-Man: No Way Home
  4. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings
  5. Hawkeye
  6. What If...?
  7. Loki
  8. Eternals
  9. Black Widow (this and Eternals might swap places on rewatch!)
  10. Moon Knight
  11. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
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I know I've moaned a lot about the bad Wandecision above but I don't want my relentless need to be precise to overshadow the fact that this is a fun flick that really just moves and moves and I'm really keen to see it again.

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Absolutely loved this but then Evil Dead 2 is my fave movie. So many Evil Dead references, I love that there is a Marvel movie out there like this and we even get

 

Spoiler

Bruce Campell punching himself in the face with his own hand, pretty much doing the kitchen scene from ED2

 

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5 hours ago, Festoon said:

Also, America Chavez is wearing a stars and stripes jacket.

 

When costuming goes wrong by overstating everything.


it’s almost as if they follow the superhero comics, which isn’t something known as a subtle medium.

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Thought this was brilliant tbh and not understanding the complaints. 

 

General thoughts 

 

 

Spoiler

Might be a bit too violent and frightening for younger MCU fans and wasn't expecting Raimi to go this Raimi with the film but so glad he did. Some amazing imagery and general unsettling atmosphere. 

 

Was totally caught off guard with Wanda being the big villain of the piece, maybe wasn't paying close enough attention to the trailers. Olsen was fantastic. 

 

Reed Richards was a big surprise, and his death has traumatised me. 

 

Was hoping Bruce Campbell would be an Iron Man variant but still enjoyed his cameo. 

 

Shame none of the Spider-men made an appearance. 

 

The green minotaur guy needed a bigger role. 

 

Have we had any explanation as to why Wong was fighting Abomination in Shang Chi yet? Was hoping that would be mentioned here. 

 

X-men theme tune was top notch but Professor X's floaty yellow vehicle looks too silly in live action- although I guess that was deliberate. 

 

I do hope we get OG Mordo back in the next Dr Strange outing. 

 

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On 09/05/2022 at 16:03, Eighthours said:

The only part of the arc that didn't ring true to me was how Vision was nowhere. So who's the father? The kids are the ones from Wandavision, so it must be Vision. Was he killed fighting Thanos in the other universes too? I understand that Vision would be another element in an already packed movie and his inclusion would pose its own problems (eg. he would want to protect 'his' Wanda), so I can see why he wasn't there, but it's surprising that he wasn't mentioned in dialogue, whether from the alternate Wanda or our Wanda, who appears to have completely got over her massive grief at his death with no subsequent mention of it.

 

Spoiler

Really? She's definitely painted as not over Vision's death and motivated by it as well as the kids. "Our" Wanda, to Strange, while they're talking above Kamar-Taj - "I blew a hole in the head of the man I loved and it meant nothing."

 

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