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Mario Kart 9 (Switch Pro ?) - Don't Get Too Excited (yet)


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Yes, I think if you only ever play against the cpu, you might not appreciate the racing skill required in MK8. We used to play it 4P in the office at lunchtimes, and there is just no room for error if you want to win against people who can race.

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41 minutes ago, Loik V credern said:

 

I think the main thing Nintendo have tried to do in broadening the appeal of Mario Kart to appeal to everyone so it becomes a family game like Mario Party all generations of a family can enjoy is having a racing game that will always guide you around, the tracks should be really wide, have bends but not corners, there are no narrow sections and no sudden requirements to slam hard on the brakes. The broadening is there in the handling.

 

Compare the Bowser tracks for a good comparison, I remember playing the N64 one and being confused in places. It's not confusing at all after a few goes but Nintendo will have gone through tracks over and over reminding designers to keep broadening and widening. The player should at no point hit a wall, or end up going the wrong way. 

 

The evolution of the Bowser Castle also shows how the extra power has been used, always with ostentatious spectacle, let's have a lava rock Bowser punch the track because it will look good, lets have him spit fire balls out, and the music has changed to dark and moody to that ostentatious guitar whinge. Tonally, aesthetically it's just adopted the Mario Party flashiness, the item boxes shouldn't be fluorescent and dazzling, you shouldn't be able to do tricks, no additional flashy visuals necessary, shrink the size of the orange and blue boost pads and change how they look. It's all tacky, but done with expense. It's trying to be this exuberant spectacle. This is probably what people don't get most, a possible alternative that's tonally very dry. I think for everyone the endgame is visuals as detailed and constructed as this but I think videogames can lose their visual essence. 

 

Obviously people don't see an issue with any of this but it shouldn't be unfathomable. 

I don’t think anyone is finding your criticisms ‘unfathomable’ in the sense that it’s difficult to understand what you’ve written, but I don’t see anything which backs up your claim about it lacking in precision control, which is just incorrect.
 

Likewise when you state ‘it shouldn’t have tricks’ - well, ok, but doing them adds a speed boost which also debunks your claim about it just being flashy for the sake of it, doing tricks gives your kart an appreciable advantage. 

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1 hour ago, Tomdominer said:

"I think it works for Smash Bros because they allow for different types of levels". Also, this is just nonsense. You can either apply the criticism to both, or to neither. Smash Bros levels aren't exactly the most varied in design, and Mario Kart's levels innovate just as much, if not more. I think you are either conflating "difficulty" with "innovation", or just ignoring the design restrictions of an actual racing game.

 

I mean in Smash it's not cosmetic and it's never felt like that, I get that it's just easier in the platform beat em up formula to I think play naturally even if they don't do a lot. If you have a stage on top of the Starfox ship it's suddenly more spacious, there's a big drop down, the Hyrule Castle is similarly big. To me unlocking new levels in Smash always felt exciting, the ips are a better fit. 

 

The F Zero level is fantastic because you leap over incoming crafts or jump on top of them, was amazed when I first unlocked it, it's such an inspired use of F Zero. Mute City and Big Blue in Mario Kart 8 are just extremely detailed backgrounds behind dull bland tracks that don't do anything different to any other track.

 

Smash Bros is just a better fit, but equally Nintendo aren't playing, F Zero X has plenty of playful ideas, those parts of tracks where you drop multiple times, narrow sections with high walls, GX has those springs that launch you, track splitting into 3 with no barriers, tubes with walls to dodge. Mario Kart just has bollards, the splitting track is kind of pointless. 

 

1 hour ago, Tomdominer said:

Mario Kart is trying to be a broad, accessible, racing game that supports short and longer play sessions and can satisfy a huge range of skills, being able to satisfy both very inexperience players, and truly hardcore gamers, and achieves that aim with laser precision. The fact that Mario Kart 8 is the best selling game in the series (frankly) dwarfs all other racing games, in terms of sales, is a testament to the design success of the game, and franchise.

 

Yeah it's great that people get so much enjoyment from it. Unfortunately for me, there's nothing else. It's like if Coldplay were the only band in the world. 

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15 minutes ago, Stanley said:

I don’t think anyone is finding your criticisms ‘unfathomable’ in the sense that it’s difficult to understand what you’ve written, but I don’t see anything which backs up your claim about it lacking in precision control, which is just incorrect.

 

Unfathomable in the sense there's always this dismissive disrespect, like if people are so secure in their love of something it shouldn't matter what anyone says. It shouldn't be unbelievable there are alternative ways to evolve the kart racer than what Mario Kart currently is. Unbelievably, I actually like the genre and don't bring it up to wind people up. 

 

15 minutes ago, Stanley said:

Likewise when you state ‘it shouldn’t have tricks’ - well, ok, but doing them adds a speed boost which also debunks your claim about it just being flashy for the sake of it, doing tricks gives your kart an appreciable advantage. 

 

I thought it was a racing game. I never actually wrote anything about tricks being 'flashy for the sake of it', so there is no claim being debunked. I was commenting on the emphasis on spectacle which is why tricks were added. A snowboarding game should have tricks, a karting game..no. Bad, naff idea. 

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4 minutes ago, Loik V credern said:

 

Unfathomable in the sense there's always this dismissive disrespect, like if people are so secure in their love of something it shouldn't matter what anyone says. It shouldn't be unbelievable there are alternative ways to evolve the kart racer than what Mario Kart currently is. Unbelievably, I actually like the genre and don't bring it up to wind people up. 

 

 

I thought it was a racing game. I never actually wrote anything about tricks being 'flashy for the sake of it', so there is no claim being debunked. I was commenting on the emphasis on spectacle which is why tricks were added. A snowboarding game should have tricks, a karting game..no. Bad, naff idea. 

You’re totally entitled to your opinion, but you have yet qualify your statement about it lacking in precision control, it doesn’t. 
 

You said it shouldn’t have tricks, again that’s fine, but I’m not sure why you think it shouldn’t, perhaps I misunderstood you when you said a lot of what it does is just flashy for the sake of it - with regards to tricks, because they do actually affect the game play it’s not just some visual flourish that looks cool, you speed up when you do them.

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I'm trying to understand the criticisms, I'm just struggling to do so. I think he wants a "pure" kart racer like go karting in real life where you only have flat and narrow tracks with no sloping, and a sense of a high centre-of-gravity. That ethos worked perfectly on the 2D games because of the limitations of the SNES/GBA and Mode 7. I could be wrong as I'm no SMK historian; but the first game was likely borne from the tech at the time, rather than the other way around. 32-bit onwards and we've been presented with an arcade drift racer, rather than a semi-sim karting game.

 

I'll give him credit, at least he's not claiming it's heavily tilted towards being a party game with an inherent dependency on the blue shell for winning races. Those kind of opinions are the worst.

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I agree that there is probably some untapped potential in the single-player mode of kart racers, but I don't think anyone's found the way forward yet. Modnation Racers and LittleBigPlanet Karting were games that had a stab at exploring track editors but fell at the hurdle of not being anywhere near as fun to play as Mario Kart. Sumo's Sega racer went for loads of challenges but suffered a similar fate. I can't blame developers for largely giving up on the idea, leaving only the low-budget, zero-ambition entires like that Chocobo one.

 

Most likely a Chinese mobile dev with a massive amount of money will get carried away while making an MK8 clone and end up making something interesting.

 

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There's a few avenues they could go in fleshing out the single player, most of which have been done in some form somewhere else - story mode, 3D platformer style unlocks, completely open world racer, 'challenge' style raves intermixed with the normal cups, an entire yakuza based open world game tacked on, that sort of thing.

 

I'd not be against any of that, but I'm not sure it'd fundamentally change the game. I think Mario Kart in general would benefit from Smash levels of options and settings - the competitive game and the game most people play are completely different for Smash.

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1 hour ago, Loik V credern said:

It's like if Coldplay were the only band in the world. 


Your analogy might work if Diddy Kong Racing ruled karts. As it is, it’s more like if Parliament were the only band in the world.

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1 hour ago, Quest said:

I agree that there is probably some untapped potential in the single-player mode of kart racers, but I don't think anyone's found the way forward yet.

 

Mario Kart Tour. Levelling up, competition, high scores, it's all there. Appreciate that folks might not be ready for mainline Mario Kart to become a service game but they've got the content and assets ready and millions of people are already playing a single player kart game every day.

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9 minutes ago, Stanley said:

You’re totally entitled to your opinion, but you have yet qualify your statement about it lacking in precision control, it doesn’t. 

 

Well I just don't feel the satisfaction of simply playing it. I'm not sure how else I can qualify it. It's mostly when you play other stuff you recognise it more, hence comparisons. You can't convince anyone that has played Fifa for decades that it lacks the precision of Pro Evo, it's an issue for me because I'm coming from decades of Pro Evo. If people are so used to how Mario Kart is now then I'm sure it feels precise. 

 

I'm surprised 'nostalgia' has not come up, that's another way to dismiss, just because examples from the past are used doesn't mean there's rose tinted specs about it. Diddy Kong Racing is still very early in 3D, it's not massively visually stimulating, the tracks aren't long or difficult, it's not very fast*, it was I think the most that could be done at the time but it doesn't represent the pinnacle of the genre as extraordinary perfection. I still think it's the best kart racer though. 

 

*but it excels in feeling fast with how tight the tracks are and how effective the boosting is. When you can string boosts through a track you realise why the default speed needs to be so moderate. 

 

The 'nostalgia' when new games like 3D platformers try to capture the 90s Rare aesthetic mostly do it cosmetically, superficially. DKR's not completely ungeneric environments wouldn't be enough now. But there's still qualities I really like, its tone, the naturalness of how it feels like it was developed that are things that can be taken on now. 

 

9 minutes ago, Stanley said:

You said it shouldn’t have tricks, again that’s fine, but I’m not sure why you think it shouldn’t, perhaps I misunderstood you when you said a lot of what it does is just flashy for the sake of it - with regards to tricks, because they do actually affect the game play it’s not just some visual flourish that looks cool, you speed up when you do them.

 

It's just commentary on the tone. I don't think it should have anti grav or bikes either. I think they should get rid of most of the characters, they're all boring and similar. It's all the materialistic bent of throwing loads of stuff at you when I think the joy of excess has passed, because I loved that shit in Smash Bros Melee and Resident Evil 4, the trophies, it was new then and felt revelatory in the early 00s. I think what would feel fresh now is stripping back, keep the roster just to the core classic characters and if they want to add more, actually come up with something new in the game so coming across them and unlocking them would actually feel exciting. 

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44 minutes ago, Loik V credern said:

I still think it's the best kart racer though. 


Oh, it definitely is…but just not in this particular plane of the multiverse. You’re thinking of the one where the best movie ever made is Dunston Checks In.

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13 hours ago, Loik V credern said:

 

Well I just don't feel the satisfaction of simply playing it. I'm not sure how else I can qualify it. It's mostly when you play other stuff you recognise it more, hence comparisons. You can't convince anyone that has played Fifa for decades that it lacks the precision of Pro Evo, it's an issue for me because I'm coming from decades of Pro Evo. If people are so used to how Mario Kart is now then I'm sure it feels precise. 

 

I'm surprised 'nostalgia' has not come up, that's another way to dismiss, just because examples from the past are used doesn't mean there's rose tinted specs about it. Diddy Kong Racing is still very early in 3D, it's not massively visually stimulating, the tracks aren't long or difficult, it's not very fast*, it was I think the most that could be done at the time but it doesn't represent the pinnacle of the genre as extraordinary perfection. I still think it's the best kart racer though. 

 

*but it excels in feeling fast with how tight the tracks are and how effective the boosting is. When you can string boosts through a track you realise why the default speed needs to be so moderate. 

 

The 'nostalgia' when new games like 3D platformers try to capture the 90s Rare aesthetic mostly do it cosmetically, superficially. DKR's not completely ungeneric environments wouldn't be enough now. But there's still qualities I really like, its tone, the naturalness of how it feels like it was developed that are things that can be taken on now. 

 

 

It's just commentary on the tone. I don't think it should have anti grav or bikes either. I think they should get rid of most of the characters, they're all boring and similar. It's all the materialistic bent of throwing loads of stuff at you when I think the joy of excess has passed, because I loved that shit in Smash Bros Melee and Resident Evil 4, the trophies, it was new then and felt revelatory in the early 00s. I think what would feel fresh now is stripping back, keep the roster just to the core classic characters and if they want to add more, actually come up with something new in the game so coming across them and unlocking them would actually feel exciting. 

I think you’re discussing something different to ‘precision control’ in that case, because there is no lack of precision when it comes to steering, acceleration, braking, boosting etc. all of which are not imprecise in any way. You’re discussing how the karts themselves handle or the ‘feel’ for want of a better word. 
 

I mean I don’t know more than anyone else what exactly Nintendo will come up with in MK9 or MK10, but I don’t think they will scale back the roster, people love playing the game with their favourite characters and if anything there will only be more.

 

Maybe they’ll come up with something else other than anti-grav tracks too, who knows. 

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1 hour ago, Stoppy2000 said:

What do you actually definitively want? Give us a few easily understandable bullet points not just vague suggestions. 

 

Again? I don't think i can be arsed writing it all out again, can you not just read my posts? They're not that vague.

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32 minutes ago, Loik V credern said:

 

Again? I don't think i can be arsed writing it all out again, can you not just read my posts? They're not that vague.

To be fair they are pretty vague. You are talking about the naturalness of how it feels? 

 

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Think they learnt a lesson from Smash Brothers.   We’ll get a few years of new characters and courses announced to keep the excitement going. New battle modes too. 
 

i can’t see them making it open world GTA style. 
 

 

as for the chat about Mario Kart control not being precise?  Madness!! 

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2 hours ago, Loik V credern said:

 

Why? I don't think so.

Well you don't want Mario Kart as you seemingly don't like anything about it. 

In a random coincidence I've been playing it tonight with my young relatives. It really is a quite excellent game. Still don't understand how the controls aren't precise..?

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I don't want a new twist in MK9. I want all the old twists to come back. I want Mario Kart Megamix, featuring every track, character, item, and ruleset from every game. Including World Tour, which is far better than most people realise.

 

Give me the feather power-up once more to use on Mount Wario. Let me have Peach's amazing shield on Baby Park. Let me double-dash on Link's bike around a remix of GBA Ribbon Road with loads of added ramps, building up a combo. Even keep the roulettes, because they are sometimes utterly hilarious. Let me put King Boo onto the Dolphin Dasher and fire off a Chain Chomp to pull me around the Royal Raceway.

 

But, don't do Batle Royale Save that for F-Zero 99!

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