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Retro Gamer 229 - Pilotwings


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5 minutes ago, Colonel Panic said:

Well, you don't know what you're talking about from my point of view. That I disagree with you is unrelated.

 

Ironic that you make that statement since when people comment on Analogue, you quickly state that people just don't get how businesses run or something to that effect!

 

 

thank you for bringing this up, and just to remind you,

 

Analogue could not have an open/ unlimited pre-order for the pocket. They had to book in production time at the factory. It allowed for x number of units and that's the number that we could order.

 

That's business, they are a small company.

 

Look how they have done the next batch preorders, they have factory time for another x number of units that will be completed by dec 2022, and then another x number of units and factory time in 2023.

 

It seems perfectly reasonable.

 

if you don't think that's exactly how they operated, i look forward to hearing it.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, ulala said:

 

 

 

 

I would have preferred if the article made a clear distinction between games that "pushed limits" through enhancement chips - like Star Fox, doom and Yoshis Island, and those that did remarkable things on the stock SNES through excellent programming, like Street Racer. Perhaps have it in two sections.

But we did do this. We pointed out every time a special chip was used and what it was used for. We mentioned it in Star Fox, Doom, Yoshi's Island, Street Fighter Alpha 2 etc and stressed when a game was doing this without any added chips. I'm not really sure what article you've read.

Having said that, I do agree that a feature looking at games on a stock SNES would make for interesting reading.

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24 minutes ago, strider said:

But we did do this. We pointed out every time a special chip was used and what it was used for. We mentioned it in Star Fox, Doom, Yoshi's Island, Street Fighter Alpha 2 etc and stressed when a game was doing this without any added chips. I'm not really sure what article you've read.

Having said that, I do agree that a feature looking at games on a stock SNES would make for interesting reading.

 

I just suggested that it was in two parts (one for chips, one for stock) rather than separate for each, that's all.

 

anyway great, i look forward to reading about the stock games in a future issue

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1 hour ago, ulala said:

 

Anyone you don't agree with, or offers a contrary opinion is a "troll" or doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

 

 

 

I don't think you're a troll but you've picked an incredibly odd hill to die on.

And no, the hill wasn't made of polygons that could only exist through the use of an enhancement chip before you freak out.

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4 hours ago, K said:

You may as well argue that a similar article about pushing the Amiga couldn't include games which required 1 meg of memory, or a hard drive.

 

Or games that came spread across multiple disks. Surely that's cheating, too?

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1 minute ago, Rex Grossman said:

 

I don't think you're a troll but you've picked an incredibly odd hill to die on.

And no, the hill wasn't made of polygons that could only exist through the use of an enhancement chip before you freak out.

 

It is my hill, every time this topic comes up - documented for years in this forum

 

I genuinely believe that games like doom and yoshi, which cannot be created on a stock snes, cannot be judged with/against games like Street Racer or Donkey Kong Country.

 

Virtua Racing isnt really a megadrive game  - it cost £100 and had a chip inside it that far exceeded anything on stock megadrive. 

 

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I don't wish to be rude, I just find it a fascinatingly odd viewpoint. I mean... without using enhancement chips, the SNES scene would've been a very different place. Its stock CPU is woefully underpowered, for instance, especially compared to the Mega Drive. It really was designed to feature enhancement chips in the cartridges, as was the NES before it. The SNES even has additional contacts in the cartridge slot for interacting with enhancement chips which aren't used in 90% of games (just the Super FX ones, IIRC). It's one of the big features of using ROM cartridges as instead of floppy discs and CDs. There's some definitely impressive programming going on with some games to do what they do without enhancement chips, but considering there were launch games for the console that used enhancements, it really was just a publisher being cheap to try to get away without using them (or the game design just not having any need for them).

 

And besides, the point I was trying to make above is that even with enhancement chips, you're still confined by some of the limits of the host console. You can use enhancements to improve CPU calculations, rapidly decompress data and calculate polygon positions, but you can't use them to boost the number of colours the console can output, for instance.

 

Elite on the NES was always considered an immense programming feat, and that uses custom mapper hardware on the cartridge. It didn't get around the fact the console can't do polygons - in fact a big part of why it's considered such a feat of programming skill is that Bell and Braben had to find a way to get the NES to calculate the polygons, then convert that to the kind of 2D tiles that the NES could output.

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3 hours ago, ulala said:

 

It is my hill, every time this topic comes up - documented for years in this forum

 

I genuinely believe that games like doom and yoshi, which cannot be created on a stock snes, cannot be judged with/against games like Street Racer or Donkey Kong Country.

 

Virtua Racing isnt really a megadrive game  - it cost £100 and had a chip inside it that far exceeded anything on stock megadrive. 

 

Of course it's a blinking Mega Drive game. You stick it in a Mega Drive and play it. That's the definition of a Mega Drive game. What do you think Virtua Racing is? A traditional form of Russian dance? A rehabilitation facility for sex addicted porpoises? 

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22 hours ago, nakamura said:

 

Not really. VR was so cool and smooth for sure, but Stunt Race FX had far more impressive physics and was far more varied. Sure, it wasn't as smooth but it felt more advanced. 

 

 

As for the other argument, sure I can understand it. Games pushing the SNES without chips is perhaps more interesting on a purely technical level. But even now, we are learning the games often had slowdown due to the use of a low ROM chip rather than fast Roms that were available at the time! So the slow CPU wasn't entirely at fault. 

You are probably right, but I remember 11 year old me renting virtua racing a lot and loving it, and also borrowing stunt race FX and not enjoying it :)

 

Interesting about the depth thing, is stunt race FX worth revisiting? I'm guessing an emulator can up the frame rate

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23 hours ago, Anne Summers said:

Of course it's a blinking Mega Drive game. You stick it in a Mega Drive and play it. That's the definition of a Mega Drive game. What do you think Virtua Racing is? A traditional form of Russian dance? A rehabilitation facility for sex addicted porpoises? 


Same with knuckles chaotix then, an excellent MegaDrive game pushing the systems limits 

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I nearly bought Mega Drive VR today. Went to the retro shop in Leigh-on-Sea featured in Retrogamer this month. Decided against it in the end (not a huge racing game fan). £20 though, for a lovely condition boxed copy, so a nice buy for someone if they're after it. 

Am about to post in another thread about what I bought instead...

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10 hours ago, bplus said:

You are probably right, but I remember 11 year old me renting virtua racing a lot and loving it, and also borrowing stunt race FX and not enjoying it :)

 

Interesting about the depth thing, is stunt race FX worth revisiting? I'm guessing an emulator can up the frame rate

Definitely. It's obvious far from perfect and as much of a driving game as anything. Not much of a race though the AI can pose a threat. 

 

It's best enjoyed in Time Trax mode as it runs smoother and you can really enjoy how each vehicle feels so different to drive. The 4 cars have different levels of weight and grip which is very impressive for the time. The frame rate is certainly an issue so will take practice but even if you don't enjoy, you may be able to see some of the more impressive aspects. Not to mention things like course variety etc. 

 

Btw that's not to take anything away from VR. I think it's brilliant on MD. More that Stunt Race has a bit more complexity with its handling model. 

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PXL_20220123_013529990.thumb.jpg.983c22c7abb545c248f92a5ebb017f39.jpgSo I finally made it along to the Retro Hunter today, after meaning to visit for years, and finally getting the kick up the arse thanks to the feature in RG this month ...

I've been following them on Facebook for a while, and Ally made a post a few days ago saying he'd got a load of magazines - which you guys on here might know is a bit of a favourite of mine when it comes to retro. The pictures showed a few copies of C&VG which I could tell were early 90s issues. I messaged him and asked if he had any 80s ones (my favourite era) or any ACE magazines - he said he had a few 80s C&VGs but no ACEs. 

 

Went along today snapped up the 80s C&VGs, then asked what else he had out of the back and he showed me some pictures that he'd handily taken of the whole mag collection. And what did I spot but a few issues of ACE ... he kindly went and dug them out for me, and sold me them for £2 each (we happily chatted about how these, particularly the C&VGs, can go for upwards of £30 an issue on ebay!). 

 

Anyway now I am the proud owner of three issues of 80s C&VG, a C&VG "Guide to Consoles" from 1990, and three issues of ACE from 1990. And a Genesis copy of Faery Tale Adventure.

 

 

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4 hours ago, nakamura said:

Definitely. It's obvious far from perfect and as much of a driving game as anything. Not much of a race though the AI can pose a threat. 

 

It's best enjoyed in Time Trax mode as it runs smoother and you can really enjoy how each vehicle feels so different to drive. The 4 cars have different levels of weight and grip which is very impressive for the time. The frame rate is certainly an issue so will take practice but even if you don't enjoy, you may be able to see some of the more impressive aspects. Not to mention things like course variety etc. 

 

Btw that's not to take anything away from VR. I think it's brilliant on MD. More that Stunt Race has a bit more complexity with its handling model. 

 

I owned Stunt Race FX back in the day (and still do), although MD Virtua Racing was merely a rental despite my love of the arcade version.

 

I now have Virtua Racing on the Switch, of course. That said I've certainly put way more time into revisiting Stunt Race. You don't really notice the poor frame rates once you start to master the courses at speed. The handling doesn't feel limited by the processing of visuals in the slightest.

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This issue arrived at the end of last week, along with the previous month’s issue and the most recent issue of Edge, so I’ve had a lot to get through. The article on Gravity was a great read - I love these pieces about  half-remembered games that I was fascinated by at the time, where one guy could make this eccentric, complicated, hard SF action strategy game, and half the review in ACE would be devoted to just explaining what spacetime was.

 

I’d love to see similar articles on similar stuff like Warhead or Subwar 2050. 

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52 minutes ago, K said:

 and half the review in ACE would be devoted to just explaining what spacetime was.

 

 

 

And the one in Zero would be a written in the form of a stage play starring the reviewer as an idiotic intergalactic space captain having adventures that were nothing to do with the game.

Games journalism was so much better in those days. 

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21 hours ago, Anne Summers said:

PXL_20220123_013529990.thumb.jpg.983c22c7abb545c248f92a5ebb017f39.jpgSo I finally made it along to the Retro Hunter today, after meaning to visit for years, and finally getting the kick up the arse thanks to the feature in RG this month ...

I've been following them on Facebook for a while, and Ally made a post a few days ago saying he'd got a load of magazines - which you guys on here might know is a bit of a favourite of mine when it comes to retro. The pictures showed a few copies of C&VG which I could tell were early 90s issues. I messaged him and asked if he had any 80s ones (my favourite era) or any ACE magazines - he said he had a few 80s C&VGs but no ACEs. 

 

Went along today snapped up the 80s C&VGs, then asked what else he had out of the back and he showed me some pictures that he'd handily taken of the whole mag collection. And what did I spot but a few issues of ACE ... he kindly went and dug them out for me, and sold me them for £2 each (we happily chatted about how these, particularly the C&VGs, can go for upwards of £30 an issue on ebay!). 

 

Anyway now I am the proud owner of three issues of 80s C&VG, a C&VG "Guide to Consoles" from 1990, and three issues of ACE from 1990. And a Genesis copy of Faery Tale Adventure.

 

 

Sounds like Ally owes me a pint 😆

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On 21/01/2022 at 15:45, ulala said:

 

It is my hill, every time this topic comes up - documented for years in this forum

 

I genuinely believe that games like doom and yoshi, which cannot be created on a stock snes, cannot be judged with/against games like Street Racer or Donkey Kong Country.

 

Virtua Racing isnt really a megadrive game  - it cost £100 and had a chip inside it that far exceeded anything on stock megadrive. 

 

The boxes for all those games say they are megadrive / super NES games. I play them on a stock snes. Any reviews at the time reviewed them as megadrive / snes games.
Good enough for me.

 

 

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On 22/01/2022 at 17:53, Ninja Doctor said:

Nope. It’s trash. Massive case of rose tinted glasses. VR is a much better game and I’m a massive snes fanboy. 

I didn't play it "back in the day" - I wanted to, but I was put off it by my boss at the time - so gave it a go recently. Yeah, rubbish. Even beyond the flip book frame rate, there's barely a game there. It's pretty much a tech demo. 

 

Speaking of which, is it heresy to say the same about Pilotwings? I've been playing it on my Series S the last week and, while I've enjoyed the experience, I just don't think it's much of a game. I'm running the risk of veering into "is games art" territory, but it's kinda like those walking simulator games where you kinda have a chilled experience with it, rather than playing it sort of thing. Absolute technical marvel, though. Even playing it now. 

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That’s certainly a hot take! It’s a game that requires a great deal of skill to play well. As I said upthread, play it without using the plane for a real challenge - that’ll force you to use the bonus challenges in order to progress. There’s actually a decent challenge without doing that once you’ve ‘beaten’ the game and you play the second loop too :)

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