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Fromsoft make great games but have a really obnoxious fanbase, change my mind.


Harsin
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1 hour ago, Majora said:

...

 

Some games offer options which allow players to reduce timing windows, dramatically slow enemy speed, dramatically reduce enemy attack damage etc. These are accessibility options but obviously there would be nothing preventing anyone from turning these options on to help them through a difficult section of Elden Ring.

 

This is where some people on this forum have really shown their ass in the past and their 'I got mine, fuck everyone else' attitude because they will wholeheartedly argue against the inclusion of these accessibility options because they are scared that if they exist then they or other people will feel tempted to use them if they are finding sections of the game hard.

 

My heart simply bleeds for the plight of the able-bodied who are concerned that they will be unable to resist using options intended to help the disabled. A truly great reason to prevent more people with disabilities from being able to enjoy the game.

 

This is what's crazy to me.

 

Outside of the directly competitive elements (i.e. online multiplayer and leaderboards*) I see no reason why options to change timings to slow things down or offer full invincibility modes do anything but improve a game. Oh and, turning them on should have no impact on achievements.

 

Like who could possible give a fuck. You pay your money for a product. The developer gets their cut. Who cares what I do with it afterwards to make sure I have the most fun**. Isn't it better for the player to be able to approach how they play how they like? I mean of course there's a default. A recommendation. A crafted experience. And if you change that and later complain the game was too short or too easy then that's on you.

 

* And even then I'd actually still let people mix unless an individual opted out to see the "only default options" lobbies or board where it's technically feasible (i.e. not for a racing game where someone is playing at 75% speed).

 

** This line of thinking leads me to any kind of locking in a game. Like why can I not play any level from the start? Story mode is the standard way but give me level select if I just want to play something I've pajd for. Why should I have to buy access to cars with in game credits in games like Gran Turismo and Forza. Isn't it just really lazy locking of progression (unless you're trying to charge me again for those credits).

 

 

 

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Oh Christ, now you’re reminding me of the thread we had on here when one of the CoD games put in an option to play any level you wanted in the style of a DVD scene select menu. Great option for people who run into a brick wall or for just if you happen to be revisiting the game in future on another format without a save file and get to skip duff stuff for the levels you really liked (quite feasible as they’ll all be coming to GamePass soon). You might think that and wonder how such a minor option (making sure I repeat that word) could possibly be controversial. But apparently that was enough for some people here to get really, really mad that they put it in.

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It’s weird that 14% finished Control. Recall the helpful god mode on that, which I switched on as it was getting a bit tedious. Maybe because it was free on PS Plus?

 

Anyway, sad to see people fall off Elden Ring because of perceived difficulty. I’m really, really, shit at it but good at perseverance:

Spoiler

 

 

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31 minutes ago, NickC said:

So is this thread just a retread of the Souls accessibility discussion, or is there some other way the fanbase is obnoxious?

 

I ask because Elden Ring is the first Souls game that I've properly played, and everyone here has been super helpful and friendly. For example, someone here made video tutorials for others to get started. Someone else drew amazing art from their adventures and shared it with us.  There's a whole thread dedicated to answering questions and helping people.

 

When I've got stuck or had a question and searched online for an answer I've been taken to other places where people are similarly helpful and friendly. On Reddit for example the more popular posts are people joking about the difficulty of the game and lauding the funny but talented players that help others when they get stuck.

 

To me it seems like the opposite of an obnoxious fambase. But maybe I've somehow missed it all.

 

I mean: yes, a bit. The souls games were the origin of the git gud phrase. A lot has changed since then but I still see plenty of obnoxious comments along those lines whenever people talk about the (fairly uncontroversial I think) fact of these games difficult. Mainly public forums like Twitter, steam, Reddit (though the latter has been much nicer around the release of ER; there is plenty of shit but the better posts float to the top). A closed community like this is the best place to discuss them but even here we've got at least one bonafide meathead. 

 

I don't think it's fully passed yet either. Nearly every time I see a player do something extraordinary (eg some crazy run) I am counting the minutes until they make a post saying 'hey, can everyone please stop using me as an example to be a dick about game difficulty?' It's still out there, but it's just nice to see that it's at least been pushed out of the forefront of discussion about these games.

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1 hour ago, jonny_rat said:

The souls games were the origin of the git gud phrase

 

Pretty sure it was a phrase used in competitive gaming circles (FGCs etc) long before Souls. From fans just brought it out into the open, beat it to death and (in some cases) eroded the good-humoured tongue-in-cheek tone by taking it seriously.

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1 hour ago, NickC said:

So is this thread just a retread of the Souls accessibility discussion, or is there some other way the fanbase is obnoxious?

 

I ask because Elden Ring is the first Souls game that I've properly played, and everyone here has been super helpful and friendly. For example, someone here made video tutorials for others to get started. Someone else drew amazing art from their adventures and shared it with us.  There's a whole thread dedicated to answering questions and helping people.

 

When I've got stuck or had a question and searched online for an answer I've been taken to other places where people are similarly helpful and friendly. On Reddit for example the more popular posts are people joking about the difficulty of the game and lauding the funny but talented players that help others when they get stuck.

 

To me it seems like the opposite of an obnoxious fanbase. But maybe I've somehow missed it all.

 

3 minutes ago, Broker said:


The whole community is always like that. Since Dark Souls I’ve experienced nothing but friendly encouragement, helpful guides, people spending hours of their own time helping others with levels they’ve already completed and a general feeling that we’re all in this together, we all struggled at first and needed some help, so we’re all excited to be that person helping someone else. 
 

A lot of the complaining about the obnoxious fanbase is from people who storm into places where we’re all enjoying the game demanding sweeping changes and then seeming shocked when the people who are enjoying the one game of thousands that feels like this aren’t particularly enthusiastic about discussing how it’s shit and needs a bunch of armchair designers to “fix” it. The games attract a weird group of people who apparently really want to play them, but only if there’s major changes made to how the core gameplay works. 
 

One area the fanbase are really obnoxious in is everyone insisting that of the five hundred setups that exist for your character to make the game more enjoyable to a wider array of people, theirs is the correct and most fun one. 

 

All of this! Yes. 

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39 minutes ago, jonny_rat said:

 

 

 

I don't think it's fully passed yet either. Nearly every time I see a player do something extraordinary (eg some crazy run) I am counting the minutes until they make a post saying 'hey, can everyone please stop using me as an example to be a dick about game difficulty?' It's still out there, but it's just nice to see that it's at least been pushed out of the forefront of discussion about these games.


who are you on about here? Is it me? Is it someone else? I keep seeing comments like this but I genuinely don’t know who you’re referring to. 

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While this thread has gone down the difficulty debate route for the umpteenth time (and that's fair enough if that's what people want to talk about) it was originally started as a lighthearted poke at how annoyingly evangelical some From fans can get.

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Just now, Doctor Shark said:


who are you on about here? Is it me? Is it someone else? I keep seeing comments like this but I genuinely don’t know who you’re referring to. 

 

Not at all you! The lad who beat Malenia with one button is the most recent example:

 

image.thumb.png.46f40ff79ad560f7c737a13f20464479.png

 

 

 

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Also, here's the article I love to post at times like this, you know, just because it's an example of someone 'storming in and demanding changes'.

 

Quote

FromSoftware has made a lot of improvements to its household formula since its early games, which shows that there’s plenty of room and definitely a place for further accessibility. As a fan, it feels like the developers are continuously refining the ultimate experience of persistence. Contrary to popular opinion, I don’t think the Souls games are really about skill, but about encouraging people to face their demons, understand consequence, and keep going. It’s also probably a little about futility, but that’s for another article. There have been a lot of Quality-of-Life (QoL) improvements over From’s games and this is a root of accessibility as a concept. QoL is about making sure players have a smooth experience and don’t burn out before we want them to. This is important for all players, but especially disabled players as we sometimes have less energy, more pain or bigger limitations to begin with. 

 

For example, since the first Dark Souls there’s been a very subtle but very important nugget of accessibility: audio sliders. I have something called sensory processing disorder where sounds, visuals, and haptics all overwhelm my brain; it shuts down and I stop processing information altogether. You can probably imagine the impact that would have on any game, much less a punishing one. It’s not about my level of skill. The boss music in Bloodborne is sublime, but it made the fights nearly impossible for me. So, I set the music at 2/10. The sound effects were vital to the cues for moves (my visual processing is slow), so I left those up, but I also turned down the voice because it included screams and roars. That was my secret to beating most of the bosses in two to five attempts.

..

But like I said, there’s still room in a game like Sekiro for more accessibility. A glance at the meager settings menus should be enough to see that. Nothing is perfect and creators are always trying to improve and come closer to the vision they have for their players. We can achieve a lot with player-defined settings and it doesn’t have to be an ‘easy-mode’ per se. There are several avenues for more improvement and the fact we have so many people talking about how they want to play but can’t, should have us asking how. My hope is for us to move beyond the concept of difficulty all together into being more understanding of the spectrum of human experience.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Harsin said:

While this thread has gone down the difficulty debate route for the umpteenth time (and that's fair enough if that's what people wnat to talk about) it was originally started as a lighthearted poke at how annoyingly evangelical some From fans can get.

 

Definitely wandered off to that debate again.

 

Bringing it back a little, Ste made this comment earlier in the thread

 

Quote

Most Souls fans I come across seem desperate to talk about the experiences they've had in the game with each other, and when they find a non-Souls fan, want to do everything they can to 'turn' them

 

This is true I think. Not just of Souls fans but of most fans. A desire to help others see what they see. To experience the same things.

 

And the reverse is true too. Those with issues with a game/series/style expressing them and wanting others to acknowledge them.

 

The former think people are shitting on the thing they like without reason and the later think people are preachy and dismissive. So they start to escalate their "explanations" and I think you end up in this "you must not be good enough" vs "the games are too hard and you're being mean" war of words.

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13 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

 

Definitely wandered off to that debate again.

 

Bringing it back a little, Ste made this comment earlier in the thread

 

 

This is true I think. Not just of Souls fans but of most fans. A desire to help others see what they see. To experience the same things.

 

And the reverse is true too. Those with issues with a game/series/style expressing them and wanting others to acknowledge them.

 

The former think people are shitting on the thing they like without reason and the later think people are preachy and dismissive. So they start to escalate their "explanations" and I think you end up in this "you must not be good enough" vs "the games are too hard and you're being mean" war of words.

 

Definitely agree with this (and the quoted post). I used to post on a UK music forum, and even back in the DS1 days it was a running joke that people would go on and on about it any time that games were mentioned. I was one of those people of course, so fair enough.

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I do think the accessibility discussion is an important one, especially now I’ve been educated to more accessibility options players could benefit from. I have no idea how they would work with FromSoft games as-is, but there shouldn’t be anything stopping them doing something to support all gamers in future games. 

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I think you can have a much better debate about accessibility in videogames if you remove From's games from the discussion. They're such an outlier in terms of difficulty in AAA games, with such a specific design and have such an 'enthusiatic' fanbase that it kind of ends up poisoning the well for the entire discussion. Microsoft and Sony have been doing some really good stuff lately in terms of accessibility options that users can tailor for their own needs in their first-party releases with nary a complaint.

 

I remember some capital G gamers wailing and gnashing their teeth at how you could essentially customise Mario Kart so it drove itself. Then you'd read stories like this about disabled children who were getting joy from the game due to these options.

 

https://www.destructoid.com/a-young-disabled-girl-can-finally-play-mario-kart-thanks-to-the-smart-steering-feature/

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3 minutes ago, Harsin said:

I think you can have a much better debate about accessibility in videogames if you remove From's games from the discussion. They're such an outlier in terms of difficulty in AAA games, with such a specific design and have such an 'enthusiatic' fanbase that it kind of ends up poisoning the well for the entire discussion. Microsoft and Sony have been doing some really good stuff lately in terms of accessibility options that users can tailor for their own needs in their first-party releases with nary a complaint.

 

I remember some capital G gamers wailing and gnashing their teeth at how you could essentially customise Mario Kart so it drove itself. Then you'd read stories like this about disabled children who were getting joy from the game due to these options.

 

https://www.destructoid.com/a-young-disabled-girl-can-finally-play-mario-kart-thanks-to-the-smart-steering-feature/

 

But From games are perfect for accessibility options. They're essentially a solo experience so offering player health boosts, enemy health reductions, damage boosts and nerfs, speed options, etc impacts literally nothing. Maybe players will find even more fun if they can make bosses have more health? Or tune their player to be killed in one hit? Accessibility in terms of gameplay options can be thought of as an additional playkit for the player. Maybe From games are too easy? What if I could turn off jumping. Or dodging. Or rolling. Even add leaderboards to every setting.

 

I don't doubt many options or combination of options will be either broken or bad. But does that matter. When I picked up the Uncharted box set I had little interest in the gunplay. Fuck that. I wanted an Indiana Jones like thing. Just exploring and puzzles with occasional shooting. So I put it in "story" mode. It was terrible. Yes it was trivial. But waiting in a room whilst wave after wave of enemies I can one shot poor in is stupid. It should have removed all the enemies other than the initial few. The waves weren't fun because it was too easy. I'd asked for it. But... at the same time that was a difficulty level so maybe the developer should have done a little more to create a better experience. I understood their lazy choice here and would have no issue if it was an accessibility thing (a simple reduce enemy health by X% slider).

 

Of course they cost development and testing time and effort. But that's a different aspect and one for me that only holds up for much smaller developers and projects.

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@thesnwmnIf I remember the previous conversation on this topic, there was quite a bit of (paraphrasing) "But why should From make it accessible to everybody, not everything has to be available to all", "But think of the cost to test it all," and "The difficulty is the developer's vision, if it was easier then people wouldn't experience the true wonder of it" - that type of stuff.

 

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I agree it's the developer's choice.

 

As a software developer myself (not games) I imagine that all the things I've said are not simple. Every option is a bug or hundred bugs waiting to happen. You might not understand why a slider to reduce an enemy health percentage, when set to -34% will cause all male characters to gain a penis on their forehead but it'll happen "because software".

 

So I can respect choosing not to to a point. Especially in smaller developers. But when you're looking to make millions, employ large teams and have an industry determined to bleed every penny from it's consumers with confusing pre-order setups and DLC releases I don't have a lot of time for them complaining it's difficult.

 

And the artistic ideal is only okay to a point. A message that says you're straying from the default, from the desired experience is enough (if the developer is up themselves enough to think this matters).

 

In the end they don't need to. They don't have to.  I only hope that in time that attitude dies and we see that getting more people some insight into the experience is better than shutting them out entirely.

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I think it's really interesting, away from accessibility discussions which I think we already have 35 threads for, to look at the From "fanbase" as if it's still a relatively niche product. From's games are so big now that there's part of the initial crowd of people who found a thing nobody heard about and loved it and now are turned off by quite how popular it is. The games are so successful and so varied that there are a whole load of people that like them for a whole load of different reasons. There are people like me who like them for a mixture of the exploration and the difficulty, I am trying to play the game without using the Spirit Ashes for bosses for example. But I'd never have a go at someone for using them or summoning or doing whatever else because it's all in the game so it's all fair play. And you might be playing just for the architecture, or just for the story; there's no wrong way to play. 

 

I'm sure there are gatekeepers out there but it's so clearly not just a From thing. I think there are gatekeepers over literally everything. There are people who don't like MGS5 because it doesn't have enough story, there are people who don't like DOOM Eternal because it's too complicated and ruins the "flow" of the 2016 game. Hell I'm a Fulham fan and if you look on twitter there are people who hate that we give out cardboard clappers to our fans because it makes "applauding too easy and stops people singing." 

 

But yeah, the games were marketed on how difficult they are for a bit and that's bound to bring a few edge lords in. I think personally rllmuk is generally a really supportive forum in terms of explaining things to people to help get through them. I'm not sure I'd have got through Dark Souls 2 in the heady days of 2015 without help and I've never felt talked down to when asking questions about the games. I've always taken the "git gud" thing to be pretty tongue in cheek rather than an attack on anyone's gaming prowess, for example. 

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26 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

And the artistic ideal is only okay to a point. A message that says you're straying from the default, from the desired experience is enough (if the developer is up themselves enough to think this matters).

They have come out numerous times and said they won't add an easy mode (because of their vision, I think?), so it's rather moot. 

 

They will point to various things that make the games more accessible instead though, and clearly they have adapted their approach over the various games, so things are changing to a degree. But no easy mode. 

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22 minutes ago, BitterToad said:

Hell I'm a Fulham fan and if you look on twitter there are people who hate that we give out cardboard clappers to our fans because it makes "applauding too easy and stops people singing." 

 

This is amazing :lol:

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3 hours ago, NickC said:

So is this thread just a retread of the Souls accessibility discussion, or is there some other way the fanbase is obnoxious?

 

I ask because Elden Ring is the first Souls game that I've properly played, and everyone here has been super helpful and friendly. For example, someone here made video tutorials for others to get started. Someone else drew amazing art from their adventures and shared it with us.  There's a whole thread dedicated to answering questions and helping people.

 

When I've got stuck or had a question and searched online for an answer I've been taken to other places where people are similarly helpful and friendly. On Reddit for example the more popular posts are people joking about the difficulty of the game and lauding the funny but talented players that help others when they get stuck.

 

To me it seems like the opposite of an obnoxious fanbase. But maybe I've somehow missed it all.

In my experience (not of Elden Ring, not played it) whilst some games have a toxic community there is usually some form of anti-toxic movement who go out of their way to be helpful and welcoming. Granted sometimes they can be intimidating in their own way although with the best of intentions. The more toxic the fanbase, the harder the anti-toxic people work to counter it. The issue is the toxicity can be loud and tends to get the attention. 

 

We should encourage the anti-toxic people who are doing their level best to make things more welcoming and not let the toxic side get all the attention. 

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6 minutes ago, Gabe said:

They have come out numerous times and said they won't add an easy mode (because of their vision, I think?), so it's rather moot. 

 

They will point to various things that make the games more accessible instead though, and clearly they have adapted their approach over the various games, so things are changing to a degree. But no easy mode. 


I think there’s things they could do. A traditional difficulty selector wouldn’t work, it’s too binary (health and damage goes up/down), but they could do things around specific mechanics to make them easier/harder. You could increase the time for parry windows to make parrying easier, or maybe even knock it right down so they’re even more difficult. Some kind of sliding scale would appease everyone, surely? No doubt you’d still get the trolls saying “urgh you have parry timing turned up to +2? True souls players have it turned to -3” because trolls will be trolls. 

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FROM: In some ways this is a... *pauses to looks towards the dying glimmer of the sun rolling behind the horizon* ...more accessible game. In... some ways.

 

THE WORLD: Could you elaborate on this please?

 

FROM: There are certain... systems. Yes. Certain... *laughs inappropriately with hard to define intent* ...systems!

 

THE WORLD: What are these systems?

 

FROM: They are... secret. They are... secret systems.

 

THE WORLD: How do we access these secret systems.

 

FROM: You must rest at certain Eldritch location... *pauses to sip the distilled blood of a rotting crow* ...at a certain... time... when the moon is *sip* gibbous.

 

THE WORLD: ...okay?

 

FROM: There is a tutorial.

 

THE WORLD: Well that's... that's really the sort of thing we were asking about...

 

FROM: *smiles sickly while turning away* Good luck... finding the tutorial...! *madcap laugh*

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Changing the default button layout on a controller is an accessibility option.
 

There’s varying levels of adjustments that the supersweats are ok with. You put a magical necklace in the game which doubles your health, which can be found by opening a wiki, it’s fair fair. Same as farming a quick 60,000 Runes off some sleeping baddies. You put in a health slider in the options, that necklace will be clutched in real life.

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That’s the joke lol well done. You don’t think there’s a certain subsection of these sort of fans who like fostering the image that the game is elite and rock hard and would shit the beds if they made it easier in the options (rather than how it’s made really easy ingame anyway)

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