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Fromsoft make great games but have a really obnoxious fanbase, change my mind.


Harsin
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1 hour ago, Gabe said:

@thesnwmnIf I remember the previous conversation on this topic, there was quite a bit of (paraphrasing) "But why should From make it accessible to everybody, not everything has to be available to all", "But think of the cost to test it all," and "The difficulty is the developer's vision, if it was easier then people wouldn't experience the true wonder of it" - that type of stuff.

 

 

I wish I could remember which CoD thread had that levels select feature discussion because my recollection of that thread is that in the case of some of the most of the ardent supporters of you have to respect the developers decisions on here, that view suddenly went straight out the window on that one.

 

But as I said in a previous post my view is that From games are such an specific case that it's better to discount them when having larger accessibility disucssions as the debate just gets sucked into a vortex of From chat and their very niche design while missing the wood for the trees.

 

Thankfully it's an area where I think the industry is making great steps, but there's still a long way to go. I can't remember the name of the person, but there's a disabled man who became quite prominent a while back in these kind of discussions with the industry, who headed an organisation pushing for better accessibility in games. It was intensley depressing seeing him talking about his experiences and those of other disabled people on Twitter only to followed by exactly the kind of replies you'd expect from gamer Twitter (not anyone here I hasten to add).

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44 minutes ago, Doctor Shark said:


I think there’s things they could do. A traditional difficulty selector wouldn’t work, it’s too binary (health and damage goes up/down), but they could do things around specific mechanics to make them easier/harder. You could increase the time for parry windows to make parrying easier, or maybe even knock it right down so they’re even more difficult. Some kind of sliding scale would appease everyone, surely? No doubt you’d still get the trolls saying “urgh you have parry timing turned up to +2? True souls players have it turned to -3” because trolls will be trolls. 

If I recall, in the other thread nobody was calling for a simple health up/damage received down thing, but the type of stuff you mention (sliders etc). It was still argued against for the reasons I mentioned. 

 

I'm pretty sure at one point there was a comment about you don't get an easy mode on difficult books and films :lol:

 

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3 minutes ago, Harsin said:

 

I wish I could remember which CoD thread had that levels select feature discussion because my recollection of that thread is that in the case of some of the most of the ardent supporters of you have to respect the developers decisions on here, that view suddenly went straight out the window on that one.

Was it one of the Black Ops games? 

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14 hours ago, Harsin said:

Oh Christ, now you’re reminding me of the thread we had on here when one of the CoD games put in an option to play any level you wanted in the style of a DVD scene select menu. Great option for people who run into a brick wall or for just if you happen to be revisiting the game in future on another format without a save file and get to skip duff stuff for the levels you really liked (quite feasible as they’ll all be coming to GamePass soon). You might think that and wonder how such a minor option (making sure I repeat that word) could possibly be controversial. But apparently that was enough for some people here to get really, really mad that they put it in.

 

Found it! One of the first results in a search for all the search terms cod level select:

 

 

 

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GTA5 has a skip mission option too, doesn't it? Useful for when certain missions are just bullshit trial and error. Parrying timing is the most obvious tweak that could be available as accessibility in From games but there are some moves towards this through the systems - I suck at parrying but found the different gun types helped in Bloodborne and Guard Counter felt like it was made for me in the Elden Ring beta (still not started the full game due to work commitments). 

 

I'm pretty radical when it comes to breaking games open for all players though; probably a result of my postmodern Death of the Author emphasis on individual experiences. I generally have little time for calls to 'the designed experience'. It's a shame that mods for console games don't seem to have kicked off tbh as PC gamers can often use aftermarket mods to tweak the game to suit their desires, whether that is to make them easier or harder.

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Parrying is pretty unimportant though, even as a die hard Souls obsessive I essentially don't use it because I find it hard to use.

 

The best option would surely be a damage taken/damage given out slider, or health recharging out when not in combat of something.

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17 minutes ago, El Spatula said:

Parrying is pretty unimportant though, even as a die hard Souls obsessive I essentially don't use it because I find it hard to use.

 

I was going to post something in the other thread today about how parrying should be rammed home in the tutorial area as being crucial to learn. Make it a NONE SHALL PASS compulsory lesson. Everyone struggling on bosses and the first knights on horseback should know that you can toy with those enemies if you can parry. It's really worth taking the time to lean. Totally transforms the game. It's just one button press to massively get the upper hand on most enemies. Madness to ignore it.

 

Watch how he deals with the birds that everyone complained about:

 

 

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4 minutes ago, El Spatula said:

The best option would surely be a damage taken/damage given out slider, or health recharging out when not in combat of something.

 

Some of this is discussed in my "easy mode" topic. I took P4 Golden as an example - it has a choice of five difficulties, but also a "custom" option where you can set the damage a player receives (less/normal/more), damage enemies receive (less/normal/more), EXP earned per battle (less/normal/more), cash earned (less/normal/more), and whether you can instantly retry a battle if you fail (yes/no).

 

And it's something I think that the From games could do in theory. Everything's already in the games as numeric values - attack power, damage reduction, amounts healed by flasks, EXP values...the "difficulties" would apply multipliers or divisors where necessary. How you design the behaviour of the multipliers or divisors is the most daunting thing, but it's not like From are talentless hacks. They could figure a system out if it's something they were interested in doing. 

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Sure; I guess it would depend on how extreme the changes would be. Like I said, From could probably find a happy medium more effectively than any of us armchair designers.

 

(Besides, a different game might be good; god knows Miyazaki has been trying to make different games whilst the community label them "Eldritch Souls", "Samurai Souls" and "Breath of Souls"...)

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27 minutes ago, El Spatula said:

I don't think that you can escape the idea that it would fundamentally be a different game entirely though. It wouldn't be the same at all.

 

And?


Why do we as individuals care if some people choose to experience the game that way (assuming that they're sensible and don't complain about the game being broken in some way because they chose that)? Did it change my enjoyment or experience? Isn't that the definition of gatekeeping.

 

Its one thing for a stubborn creator to defend no options but why would any consumers want to defend that?

 

(note, shrugging at it, or accepting it's not going to happen is very different to thinking up defences other than "the developer didn't want to")

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54 minutes ago, Qazimod said:

 

Some of this is discussed in my "easy mode" topic. I took P4 Golden as an example - it has a choice of five difficulties, but also a "custom" option where you can set the damage a player receives (less/normal/more), damage enemies receive (less/normal/more), EXP earned per battle (less/normal/more), cash earned (less/normal/more), and whether you can instantly retry a battle if you fail (yes/no).

 

And it's something I think that the From games could do in theory. Everything's already in the games as numeric values - attack power, damage reduction, amounts healed by flasks, EXP values...the "difficulties" would apply multipliers or divisors where necessary. How you design the behaviour of the multipliers or divisors is the most daunting thing, but it's not like From are talentless hacks. They could figure a system out if it's something they were interested in doing. 

 

I'm loathe to get into this discussion because it gets a bit too heated for me, but without making any value judgements, although many people on this forum play these games as single player games exclusively, a lot of people (most?) do play them as multiplayer games and shared experiences and From balance and patch them with that in mind, which is presumably why they don't let you tweaks all the behind the scenes damage numbers and what not.

 

Again I make no judgement, good or bad, on them doing that and I'm not looking for an argument, I'm just pointing out why I think they probably do it the way they do it.

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4 hours ago, Doctor Shark said:


I think there’s things they could do. A traditional difficulty selector wouldn’t work, it’s too binary (health and damage goes up/down), but they could do things around specific mechanics to make them easier/harder. You could increase the time for parry windows to make parrying easier, or maybe even knock it right down so they’re even more difficult. Some kind of sliding scale would appease everyone, surely? No doubt you’d still get the trolls saying “urgh you have parry timing turned up to +2? True souls players have it turned to -3” because trolls will be trolls. 


I always think this is an odd one, because they do have those things. The buckler has more forgiving parry timing. If you want more health you can put on more armour. If you’re struggling with a tough boss spirit ashes make them way easier, as do both types of summon. You can just go to six of the nine areas on the map without having to fight anything in Elden Ring. They’ve already got some of the best difficulty options of any game ever made, but people seem to want the most boring, uninspired, generic implementation of difficulty because it’s what other rubbish games have. All it takes to trivialise the majority of the bosses is to Google the name of the game and “overpowered” and ride your horse around a bit. They’ve added even more difficulty options to every game except Sekiro and there’s still endless complaining that it’s not just being “fixed” to be more like every other game ever.

 

32 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

 

And?


Why do we as individuals care if some people choose to experience the game that way (assuming that they're sensible and don't complain about the game being broken in some way because they chose that)? Did it change my enjoyment or experience? Isn't that the definition of gatekeeping.

 

Its one thing for a stubborn creator to defend no options but why would any consumers want to defend that?

 

(note, shrugging at it, or accepting it's not going to happen is very different to thinking up defences other than "the developer didn't want to")

 

As several of the other points against it have been dismissed in an incredibly rude way (but sure, it’s the fans who are obnoxious) the one that persists forever is the completely unique community that grows around the games because of the fixed experience all the players have. They’ve specifically designed the difficulty to be something that fosters a community and succeeded absolutely. There’s thousands of other games with literally everything people want, but for some reason there’s a fixation on these games as something that needs to be completely changed to satisfy the demands of people who don’t like one very specific aspect of them. 
 

I think it boils down to whether you see games as a toy or as art. If I buy a board game or a Lego set I expect to be able to do what I want with the pieces. If I buy a book I don’t bother the people who are enjoying it moaning that I would enjoy it more if it had more paragraph breaks. I just accept that it’s not for me if the things I do like don’t outweigh the things I don’t I read something else. If it was a different kind of product I might feel differently about the fact I spent money on it and can’t use it the way I want. I think it’s mostly down to expectations. 

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2 minutes ago, Broker said:

As several of the other points against it have been dismissed in an incredibly rude way (but sure, it’s the fans who are obnoxious) the one that persists forever is the completely unique community that grows around the games because of the fixed experience all the players have. They’ve specifically designed the difficulty to be something that fosters a community and succeeded absolutely. There’s thousands of other games with literally everything people want, but for some reason there’s a fixation on these games as something that needs to be completely changed to satisfy the demands of people who don’t like one very specific aspect of them. 
 

I think it boils down to whether you see games as a toy or as art. If I buy a board game or a Lego set I expect to be able to do what I want with the pieces. If I buy a book I don’t bother the people who are enjoying it moaning that I would enjoy it more if it had more paragraph breaks. I just accept that it’s not for me if the things I do like don’t outweigh the things I don’t I read something else. If it was a different kind of product I might feel differently about the fact I spent money on it and can’t use it the way I want. I think it’s mostly down to expectations. 

 

The art line is an interesting one. I very much think of games as art (and toys given they're not mutually exclusive obviously). But then I think using that line suggests they're limited by the confines of books or movies. They're not. They're interactive and capable of so much more. They can tailor the experience in a way a book or film cannot. But I'm aware that tweaking isn't trivial. A game may have enemy/player health/damage percentage as a global variable but I bet it's often not quite so simple due to projects rolling on for years.

 

The community aspect is one I'd not thought of. I can see how that's true. The shared experience of the community battling something together. It's interesting because it's obviously a privilege of games reaching a certain size audience. Enough that they can connect and discover this stuff. Like the community brute forcing of the final puzzle of Fez is a very different thing when it can be done in a day by enough players to just 10 people doing it for years (or needing to find the real solution if one exists).

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The community angle and shared experience is certainly an interesting point, though what about people who use summons to get through the games - their journey through the world is going to be different (perhaps vastly so) to somebody soloing it all, so the shared experience stuff is already going to diluted by that.

 

And if it is more about the exploration of the world then having easier combat shouldn't make any difference, no?

 

That said, should every developer be compelled to make their games accessible to all? I don't think you can mandate for that, no.

 

But that shouldn't be because of the reaction of the fans (or detractors) but more that the creative arts should be allowed to express themselves how they wish, without that type of constraint. I think. 

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Summons aren't a crutch or easy mode though, they are an intrinsic part of the shared experience, From wants you to use them. They are a very direct manifestation of that desire to get the players to share the experience together. Similarly they want you to leave messages and read messages from other players, they didn't just implement that stuff on a whim, it underpins their design philosophy and the games' themes. For good or ill, people would engage less with that shared experience if you could adjust the game so it didn't matter as much.

 

People who insist on playing with messages off and never using summons or invading are not engaging with the game in the way the developers intended in my opinion, although they can play as they like obvioisly. But we end up having these odd discussions around difficulty in these games where the model of playing them is the most hardcore, single player experience, when in reality most players don't play them like that and the developers probably don't intend that you play them like that.

 

On wider accessibilty I like the games as they are but I feel sad that some people will miss out on them because of accessibilty issues. Genuinely I don't know how you balance that to everyone's satisfaction.

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The fixed community stuff is entirely manageable if the devs want to manage it. Dark souls 2 and sekiro both have settings to change the game's overall difficulty, and they survived as shared experiences. Elden Ring is such a sandbox in terms of builds and items and summons that a simple difficulty setting would be nothing compared to the in-game stuff you can actually do to make your character overpowered. (And this doesn't represent a solution: it just means that the 'accessible' version of the game is the one that's played in a limited and prescriptive way.)

 

Standard disclaimer: this doesn't mean that I think difficulty settings are the answers to anything, or that I think From have any obligation to do this. It's just a nothing argument against the practicality of implementing any of this.

 

 

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Summoning someone to help you kill a boss doesn't bypass the idea of the shared community experience, it's the opposite, it's actively engaging in that experience. Dark Souls does allow you to drop the difficulty of their game but instead of going into a difficulty menu and changing "Normal" to "Easy" you're engaging with the games community and summoning a player to help you.

 

And that idea works. Just look how the legend of the "Let me Solo Her" guy grew, all based on this player who helped players kill the hardest Elden Ring boss while wearing nothing but a giant pot on his head and wielding two katanas. That doesn't happen with a difficulty menu, hell that bosses reputation doesn't happen with a difficulty option. 

 

If there was a vote I'd probably vote on the side of accessibility options. But the idea that changing how difficulty in these games work doesn't change anything for the individual because who cares what difficulty someone sets their game to isn't right imo. 

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6 minutes ago, Zael said:

Summoning someone to help you kill a boss doesn't bypass the idea of the shared community experience, it's the opposite, it's actively engaging in that experience. Dark Souls does allow you to drop the difficulty of their game but instead of going into a difficulty menu and changing "Normal" to "Easy" you're engaging with the games community and summoning a player to help you.

 

And that idea works. Just look how the legend of the "Let me Solo Her" guy grew, all based on this player who helped players kill the hardest Elden Ring boss while wearing nothing but a giant pot on his head and wielding two katanas. That doesn't happen with a difficulty menu, hell that bosses reputation doesn't happen with a difficulty option. 

 

If there was a vote I'd probably vote on the side of accessibility options. But the idea that changing how difficulty in these games work doesn't change anything for the individual because who cares what difficulty someone sets their game to isn't right imo. 

Are you saying that the let me solo her stuff would have been somehow prevented by having these options included?

 

I mean, again, I don't want to argue got difficulty solutions as the solution to anything, but these are pretty wild claims.  These are games with level scaling for co-op play; games where you can enter covenants and ring bells that apply flat multipliers to enemy damage and resistance. It's eminently doable, and it's genuinely enough to say that From just don't want to and that's fine. We don't need to invent reasons why it would damage the experience for everyone else.

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I nearly passed on Elden Ring because of the fanbase.

They've morphed from a chess club solving a problem to some elite MMO raid club.

So , just play the game without a guide. ....but how would you figure this and that out.....you'll figure it out, it's a game.

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3 minutes ago, jonny_rat said:

Are you saying that the let me solo her stuff would have been somehow prevented by having these options included?

 

I mean, again, I don't want to argue got difficulty solutions as the solution to anything, but these are pretty wild claims.  These are games with level scaling for co-op play; games where you can enter covenants and ring bells that apply flat multipliers to enemy damage and resistance. It's eminently doable, and it's genuinely enough to say that From just don't want to and that's fine. We don't need to invent reasons why it would damage the experience for everyone else.

 

Come on, of course it wouldn't happen in the same way, why would the majority of players go to the trouble of summoning someone if they could adjust some sliders and get through it on their own?

 

Now I'm not necessarily saying that means they should or shouldn't add these options, but people pretending that it would have no impact on the game experience are as bad as people who treat these games as sacred cows that can't be touched.

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6 minutes ago, jonny_rat said:

Are you saying that the let me solo her stuff would have been somehow prevented by having these options included?

 

I mean, again, I don't want to argue got difficulty solutions as the solution to anything, but these are pretty wild claims.  These are games with level scaling for co-op play; games where you can enter covenants and ring bells that apply flat multipliers to enemy damage and resistance. It's eminently doable, and it's genuinely enough to say that From just don't want to and that's fine. We don't need to invent reasons why it would damage the experience for everyone else.

 

Yes it absolutely wouldn't happen. If players can make the boss easier through a press of a button the vast majority of them aren't going to summon someone else in, they're going to press the button. Let me Solo Her became famous because so many people needed to summon against that boss and thus the legend grew.

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4 minutes ago, Harrisown said:

I nearly passed on Elden Ring because of the fanbase.

They've morphed from a chess club solving a problem to some elite MMO raid club.

So , just play the game without a guide. ....but how would you figure this and that out.....you'll figure it out, it's a game.

 

Who does this on this forum though?? Who has told you you can't use a guide?

 

These sorts of posts are so infuriating and don't chime at all with my experience of the Souls threads here.

 

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Just now, ChewMagma said:

 

Who does this on this forum though?? Who has told you you can't use a guide?

 

These sorts of posts are so infuriating and don't chime at all with my experience of the Souls threads here.

 

I'm the one telling everyone else to not use a guide.

 

I moaned weeks before Elden Ring came out that on day one some guy would have completed it 3 times and every secret will be documented on a some website somewhere.

Everyone I know at work playing it are watching streams and reading guides before even buying....I mean what's the point.

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14 minutes ago, Harrisown said:

I'm the one telling everyone else to not use a guide.

 

I moaned weeks before Elden Ring came out that on day one some guy would have completed it 3 times and every secret will be documented on a some website somewhere.

Everyone I know at work playing it are watching streams and reading guides before even buying....I mean what's the point.

 

Actually on that subject my wife started playing Bloodborne recently and she has been playing it with the (somewhat out of date by now) hardback guidebook in her hand. I think it is because she doesn't enjoy jump scares, wants to psyche herself up for bosses in advance, and doesn't want to miss anything important. Not how I'd play, although I will resort to guides if I feel the need, but she loves it and says it is one of her favourite games ever, so more power to her imo.

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7 minutes ago, ChewMagma said:

 

Come on, of course it wouldn't happen in the same way, why would the majority of players go to the trouble of summoning someone if they could adjust some sliders and get through it on their own?

 

Now I'm not necessarily saying that means they should or shouldn't add these options, but people pretending that it would have no impact on the game experience are as bad as people who treat these games as sacred cows that can't be touched.

 

4 minutes ago, Zael said:

 

Yes it absolutely wouldn't happen. If players can make the boss easier through a press of a button the vast majority of them aren't going to summon someone else in, they're going to press the button. Let me Solo Her became famous because so many people needed to summon against that boss and thus the legend grew.

So many assumptions. No, I do not think people would press the button rather than summon in great numbers,  because it would be incredibly easy to present summoning as the first-case, and intended, in-game-lore-compatible experience. Summoning isn't supposed to be a hassle or trouble in these games: it's fun. (And if you'd disagree and say it isn't fun, then that's case closed as far as I'm concerned and we should just have all the sliders and rubbish difficulty settings). This is a game that spends scores of hours helping players find their own level of self restraint - shall I use the ash summon that kills the boss for me, shall I grab moonveil and L2 my way through everything - and you worry about people giving up on the game's most fun mechanic at the very last minute?

 

You're also talking about global matchmaking for one of the biggest games in the world: if you skimmed off 10% of players who decided to decline to summon, I think you'd be fine. 

 

I think something that happens here is that you get tied up in thinking that if demons souls had all these mechanics we're talking about, then maybe that game would have struggled to define itself. And I completely agree: that could be true. But we're not, and ER is a very different game in different times.

 

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Just now, jonny_rat said:

 

So many assumptions. No, I do not think people would press the button rather than summon in great numbers,  because it would be incredibly easy to present summoning as the first-case, and intended, in-game-lore-compatible experience. Summoning isn't supposed to be a hassle or trouble in these games: it's fun. (And if you'd disagree and say it isn't fun, then that's case closed as far as I'm concerned and we should just have all the sliders and rubbish difficulty settings). This is a game that spends scores of hours helping players find their own level of self restraint - shall I use the ash summon that kills the boss for me, shall I grab moonveil and L2 my way through everything - and you worry about people giving up on the game's most fun mechanic at the very last minute?

 

You're also talking about global matchmaking for one of the biggest games in the world: if you skimmed off 10% of players who decided to decline to summon, I think you'd be fine. 

 

I think something that happens here is that you get tied up in thinking that if demons souls had all these mechanics we're talking about, then maybe that game would have struggled to define itself. And I completely agree: that could be true. But we're not, and ER is a very different game in different times.

 

 

Of course its an assumption. This didn't actually happen so all we can make are assumptions. You're also assuming with your theory that summoning would be as used and create stories if a difficulty mode was introduced. 

 

And that's fine we can both make assumptions on what would happen. I disagree with your assumption, I think a huge amount of people would opt to change their own personal difficulty and not engage in summoning other players.  I believe that things would change if a mode was introduced and a lot of fans of the series believe that too. 

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4 minutes ago, jonny_rat said:

 

So many assumptions. No, I do not think people would press the button rather than summon in great numbers,  because it would be incredibly easy to present summoning as the first-case, and intended, in-game-lore-compatible experience. Summoning isn't supposed to be a hassle or trouble in these games: it's fun. (And if you'd disagree and say it isn't fun, then that's case closed as far as I'm concerned and we should just have all the sliders and rubbish difficulty settings). This is a game that spends scores of hours helping players find their own level of self restraint - shall I use the ash summon that kills the boss for me, shall I grab moonveil and L2 my way through everything - and you worry about people giving up on the game's most fun mechanic at the very last minute?

 

You're also talking about global matchmaking for one of the biggest games in the world: if you skimmed off 10% of players who decided to decline to summon, I think you'd be fine. 

 

I think something that happens here is that you get tied up in thinking that if demons souls had all these mechanics we're talking about, then maybe that game would have struggled to define itself. And I completely agree: that could be true. But we're not, and ER is a very different game in different times.

 

 

I think it is an interesting point you make about Demons Souls. The fear that some people have I think is that these are such ineffable, enigmatic games - From managed to somehow bottle lightning whilst apparently breaking a lot of sacrosanct game design principles - that it is very hard to put your finger on exactly what makes them so special and unique and tinkering with them too much might mean you lose that.

 

Now again I don't say that because I necessarily agree (my hot take is that From should stop making these games now actually, sequels will only be diminishing returns, and they should try their hand at something new), but I think that is closer to understanding why Souls fans get defensive on difficulty, it isn't solely or predominately because of a "git gud" mentality, it is mainly because they fear you might accidentally break a winning formula.

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