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Is Jim Ryan finished?


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2 minutes ago, Pelekophoros said:

 

Hmmm. Bit of over reaching there, really. Could you be more overt about what you think my views are please, before I reply to imagined or implied things?

 

4 hours ago, Pelekophoros said:

Jim Ryan isn't finished because of this. There are plenty of CEOs who write shit emails around (most of them). Him telling his staff to respect each other's opinions is an appropriate CEO response to his US staff on a subject that has been a critical political battleground for decades regardless of the current round of arguments that's going on.

"appropriate CEO response". It is in no way this. It is potentially a typical CEO response but it is in no way appropriate to the current changes that people in the US are facing: by many measures, but a good one is that it was immediately leaked externally and picked up as a story by Schreier with immediate traction.

 

38 minutes ago, Pelekophoros said:

 

 

 

Again, I think the core argument there is shifting goal posts. My employer told any racist customers to fuck off into the sun, very overtly. It's possible for an organisation to be overtly anti-this terrible thing whilst struggling to understand the stance it should take on this other terrible thing because it's a more difficult social argument. And it can struggle to do that whilst telling its employees "this is work, leave your shit at the door".

 

I mean, that in itself is a stance and a statement - "We don't care about this debate, you are here to do your job and make money" is definitely a moral framework you can measure your employer against.

 

The core of this is that Sony as an organisation is 'struggling' to understand the stance to take on a 'difficult social argument.' On one level, this should be a simple one - it reflects badly on them if they are dithering on taking a position here. But more straightforward: this is not a 'social argument' - it's a removal of fundamental rights for a portion of its workforce and to argue that they should be leaving their anger at the door is very, very poor. (Note that I'm less clear on whether I actually understand your argument in this second bit: I don't know if you're actually applying this stuff to Ryan's statement at all, so if not, apologies)

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2 minutes ago, jonny_rat said:

 

"appropriate CEO response". It is in no way this. It is potentially a typical CEO response but it is in no way appropriate to the current changes that people in the US are facing: by many measures, but a good one is that it was immediately leaked externally and picked up as a story by Schreier with immediate traction.

 

The core of this is that Sony as an organisation is 'struggling' to understand the stance to take on a 'difficult social argument.' On one level, this should be a simple one - it reflects badly on them if they are dithering on taking a position here. But more straightforward: this is not a 'social argument' - it's a removal of fundamental rights for a portion of its workforce and to argue that they should be leaving their anger at the door is very, very poor. (Note that I'm less clear on whether I actually understand your argument in this second bit: I don't know if you're actually applying this stuff to Ryan's statement at all, so if not, apologies)

 

Ok, thanks - I appreciate the response.

 

The first thing I want to make clear is my view on the core issue, which I have been purposefully trying to avoid doing. If you're anti-abortion, you're a fucking cretin.

 

 

I think where we differ on debate/not a debate is simply in the way we are commenting on events unfolding. There is a debate taking place (in a literal documented sense), but your stance is that there is no debate to be had which I also agree with when I step into my "this is my stance" box. I think? Apologies if I'm wording that badly.

 

 

With that out in the open, I'll jump to "appropriate CEO response".

 

Jim Ryan's email is shit (I said that), it's unsympathetic to a significant portion/majority of his staff, it's tone deaf and I can't even begin to imagine how betrayed many of his teams will feel as a result of it.

 

But, none of that means it is not an appropriate CEO response to tell people to just get on with things and make the money.

 

Is that a sad reflection of the corporate world? Yep. Does it fall below what we would have hoped? For sure. Is he so detached from reality that he thinks incidental details about his pets will help? Yes, and he should get some fucking help with that. Would I want to continue to work for him after that? Nope.

 

Is it going to get him fired? Is he finished? Unlikely.

 

 

The bit about Sony struggling to understand - by which I mean Ryan and the board - they clearly are, because "Leave your shit at the door" is a deeply disappointing statement to make. But as I said - it is a stance they can take, and one you, I and everyone else can judge them by. It's just not the one anybody wanted.

 

I am absolutely applying this to Ryan - he's clearly tried to take the middle ground, done so in a poor way and as a result it's blowing up in his face.

 

But I don't think he's finished, despite also agreeing with you that in making this statement they are 100% enabling one side of the argument to have a voice where they should not.

 

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12 minutes ago, Pelekophoros said:

 

Ok, thanks - I appreciate the response.

 

The first thing I want to make clear is my view on the core issue, which I have been purposefully trying to avoid doing. If you're anti-abortion, you're a fucking cretin.

 

 

I think where we differ on debate/not a debate is simply in the way we are commenting on events unfolding. There is a debate taking place (in a literal documented sense), but your stance is that there is no debate to be had which I also agree with when I step into my "this is my stance" box. I think? Apologies if I'm wording that badly.

 

 

With that out in the open, I'll jump to "appropriate CEO response".

 

Jim Ryan's email is shit (I said that), it's unsympathetic to a significant portion/majority of his staff, it's tone deaf and I can't even begin to imagine how betrayed many of his teams will feel as a result of it.

 

But, none of that means it is not an appropriate CEO response to tell people to just get on with things and make the money.

 

Is that a sad reflection of the corporate world? Yep. Does it fall below what we would have hoped? For sure. Is he so detached from reality that he thinks incidental details about his pets will help? Yes, and he should get some fucking help with that. Would I want to continue to work for him after that? Nope.

 

Is it going to get him fired? Is he finished? Unlikely.

 

 

The bit about Sony struggling to understand - by which I mean Ryan and the board - they clearly are, because "Leave your shit at the door" is a deeply disappointing statement to make. But as I said - it is a stance they can take, and one you, I and everyone else can judge them by. It's just not the one anybody wanted.

 

I am absolutely applying this to Ryan - he's clearly tried to take the middle ground, done so in a poor way and as a result it's blowing up in his face.

 

But I don't think he's finished, despite also agreeing with you that in making this statement they are 100% enabling one side of the argument to have a voice where they should not.

 

 

Okay - thank you, I really appreciate it, that's super clear. 

 

I do wonder if there will be any consequences: CEOs/heads of smaller publishers have certainly had their positions compromised, but usually after doubling down after incidents like this. Perhaps he'll keep his head down now; or maybe he'll make a better clarifying statement.

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If those Gamer replies under Bungie’s tweet shows you anything, the Keep Politics Out of Games nuts make up a significant proportion on their audience. And it’s very likely a significant number of Sony’s staff too. 

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I’m not exactly sure why Sony/any company is expected to weigh in on this argument in the first place. In a healthy work/life balance no employer should be sticking their nose in on how their employees do or don’t approach abortion. Everybody needs to wind their neck in, surely? 

 

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Is Jim Ryan finished?

 

Well, let’s see… There’s documented evidence of Bobby Kotick saying he wanted to have someone killed a few years back and he’s still there so I’m going to say…’no’.

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1 minute ago, Strafe said:

Is Jim Ryan finished?

 

Well, let’s see… There’s documented evidence of Bobby Kotick saying he wanted to have someone killed a few years back and he’s still there so I’m going to say…’no’.

 

Well, they sold the company to have an excuse to give him millions of quid to fuck off in order to get rid of him. Talk about failing upwards.

Jim Ryan you imagine will be lucky to get a hearty handshake and gold watch.

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He's going to be fine. They'll run these emails by HR first next time. Standard stuff. If there's internal pressure, he'll follow-up by saying he'll do better with his wording in future, supports everyone's rights, and has taken a LinkedIn Learning course how How Not To Foot-in-Mouth As The Gaffer.

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2 hours ago, mikeyl said:

If those Gamer replies under Bungie’s tweet shows you anything, the Keep Politics Out of Games nuts make up a significant proportion on their audience. And it’s very likely a significant number of Sony’s staff too. 

Sony's huge, so they've got a lot of staff (which means they employ a lot of people of every sort of opinion), and while I've hardly ever worked for a company that size - or one of their first party studios - I'd say 90% of the people I've worked with in the games industry aren't Keep Politics Out Of Games types.

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24 minutes ago, Scribblor said:

Sony's huge, so they've got a lot of staff (which means they employ a lot of people of every sort of opinion), and while I've hardly ever worked for a company that size - or one of their first party studios - I'd say 90% of the people I've worked with in the games industry aren't Keep Politics Out Of Games types.


Yeah fair I guess. I haven’t looked at any numbers, demographics in those industries would tally but there are still a lot of god-fearing Republicans out there.

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True, and I've only ever worked in the UK so wouldn't have too much contact with god-fearing Republicans anyway. But there's also very few gammons or massive Tories that I've met in games.

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5 hours ago, mikeyl said:

If those Gamer replies under Bungie’s tweet shows you anything, the Keep Politics Out of Games nuts make up a significant proportion on their audience. And it’s very likely a significant number of Sony’s staff too. 


Look at the few wankers on here who bloo bloo bloo anytime we try to discuss awful real life stuff in a thread about one of their favourite computer games.

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We think of California as being this sort of hippy leftie place, but forget it had Arnie as Governor, and is full of all those techbros that are vacuuming up our data, and selling it to nefarious political campaigns, running countless crypto scams and so on and so on. 

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8 hours ago, mikeyl said:

If those Gamer replies under Bungie’s tweet shows you anything, the Keep Politics Out of Games nuts make up a significant proportion on their audience.

Or that any name brand company or public figure with millions of followers gets thousands of dingleberries who don't know how Twitter works replying to everything they post. One of those two things.

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1 hour ago, MK-1601 said:

Or that any name brand company or public figure with millions of followers gets thousands of dingleberries who don't know how Twitter works replying to everything they post. One of those two things.


Or maybe both of those things? The boys under that post, especially the ones who shout “You can’t fix the broken Titan helmet in Trials of Osiris but find the time to go on about politics and alienate half the community” are definitely their audience

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I dunno. Bungie have been publicly supporting stuff like trans rights, BLM, Pride, etc for ages, and all of their tweets on those subjects have lots of replies from dickheads saying they’ve alienated half their community and that they’ll never play Destiny again, and yet the game’s more popular than ever. These people make a lot of noise, but they’re hardly the core fanbase. 

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Go for it, I can’t believe the nerve of someone to say that with a straight face to a black person.

 

Was “not you, you’re one of the good ones” on the bingo card by any chance?

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1 hour ago, K said:

I dunno. Bungie have been publicly supporting stuff like trans rights, BLM, Pride, etc for ages, and all of their tweets on those subjects have lots of replies from dickheads saying they’ve alienated half their community and that they’ll never play Destiny again, and yet the game’s more popular than ever. These people make a lot of noise, but they’re hardly the core fanbase. 


ah yeah, to be fair I’ve got all my virtue banners equipped (BLM, Trans rights and doing a lot of Vault of Glass) and it’s always lovely to see them on others out and about in the game world. I guess all fansbases have wronguns and I’ve played with a fair few Americans with awful views


 

FDFC01EB-8DCC-4E59-A5BB-37F9FE7C3EA4.jpeg

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4 hours ago, Darren said:

Go for it, I can’t believe the nerve of someone to say that with a straight face to a black person.

 

Was “not you, you’re one of the good ones” on the bingo card by any chance?


that wasn’t in there

 

i do want to add that I’m not posting that conversation for credit of any kind. I thought it illustrated this weird situation many people are put in where they feel uncomfortable voicing their objections to what is obvious hate speech, even when they’re the target of it. What the fuck is going on? What kind of a world do we live in?

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The States has vitriolic culture wars that make ours look like a teddy bears picnic.

 

Try getting into a discussion on the insane Clause 4-esque Don’t Say Gay law in Florida and you can count the seconds until you’re accused of being a paedophile.

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3 hours ago, womblingfree said:

The States has vitriolic culture wars that make ours look like a teddy bears picnic.

 

Try getting into a discussion on the insane Clause 4-esque Don’t Say Gay law in Florida and you can count the seconds until you’re accused of being a paedophile.

I take it that “Discussion” takes place in

Twitter?….you should

know better.

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