Wo Long: Fallen Dynasty - Team Ninja's take on Romance of the Three Kingdoms

[jonamok]

Think it’s to the right of your R1 + X martial arts skill slot. Think it only starts to appear into Boss 1 phase 2.

[Popo]

1 hour ago, HarryBizzle said:

If you’re really struggling, videos like this can really help:

 

 

 

Yes! This video shows the divine beast gauge - I don’t have one. The corner of my screens looks like this (spoilers for phone camera photo size):

 

 

Spoiler

 

[jonamok]

See above.

[Popo]

Ok, I beat him. 
 

I’m struggling to comprehend why they’ve introduced a mechanic like the divine beast in the middle of a punishingly difficult fight - the fight itself was already way too hard for that point in the game, now you expect the player to be able to read the subtitles while another character explains a gameplay mechanic while fighting? 
 

Absolute power move by the developers. 
 

Anyway. I did the Driver garage and now I’ve done the Wo Long cunt. I can die satisfied. 

[deerokus]

2 hours ago, Curtis said:

Last night i watched all 288 minutes of the extended cut of John Woo's 'Red Cliff', and saw so many recognisable faces from this game. 

 

I'm not really familar with the Three Kingdoms period of Imperial China, but i'm intrigued to learn more because it seems so fascinating!

Play the dynasty warriors games from the same publisher as this! 

[HarryBizzle]

Just beat Baiyu and am now pottering around a very Sekiro like location fighting very Sekiro like Ninjas who are tough as nails. Still loving it. 

[jonny_rat]

4 hours ago, Kromeo said:

 

Nope. It's a skill test, not a numbers game.

 

 

Touchy, touchy! The experienced is perfectly balanced for the players it wants to attract. You don't want to engage with its mechanics enough and are clearly looking for a different experience.

 

But thanks for engaging with my arguments properly instead of regurgitating the same "it's my way or the highway" bullshit, champ.

 

 

lmao git gud 

 

Everything you've written about this boss is rendered moot by the problem that there's a straightforward design issue with the second stage that is at odds with what you're saying.

 

People are giving up on the game because the boss's second health bar looks insurmountable. This is the critical point. They're learning the game's rules, playing as they are asked to. Now it asks them to up their game again, which is maybe fine if that's the game signalling how hardcore it is!

 

Except.. it isn't. They don't have to whittle down that entire health bar. They just have to do well enough to get their divine beast bar up. Which they haven't had explained to them, and isn't intuitive enough to understand by glancing at it. And it's enough to make people think that the game is not for them, when actually, they've nearly done it. I thought this was supposed to be a 'skill test' - not a 'guess when the fight will randomly end test'.

 

It's all well very to talk about developer intent here but it's hard to ascertain any reasonable intent with this. Remember that bit in BB when you were fighting Gascoigne and he powered up, and then your Blood Rage meter hit 100% and your character killed him in a QTE cutscene?

 

I think they wanted a way to show off their cool special move and failed to think about how it would affect players' morale over the course of this fight. It's a shame, it's a significant mistake to make because it's putting up an entirely unnecessary barrier to progress in a pretty smart and lovely game and it will hurt it.

[Kromeo]

What a crock of horse shite.

 

2 hours ago, jonny_rat said:

Everything you've written about this boss is rendered moot by the problem that there's a straightforward design issue with the second stage 

 

A design issue?

 

It's merely one tough fight, highlighted by the fact that 1) it's placed very early in the game, and 2) it's way more doable than it seems because most of the second phase can be skipped with an obfuscated, but easily googlable QTE.

That's not a design issue; that's a cheeky, fully intended skill gate, and a primer for things to come. 

 

2 hours ago, jonny_rat said:

People are giving up on the game because the boss's second health bar looks insurmountable.

 

So? People give up on plenty of games, for plenty of reasons, all the time. Often for wrong reasons, too. I remember quitting on Kirby for being "childish bullshit that basically plays itself"... until someone showed me it had a surprisingly complex, difficult and rewarding boss rush mode on the 3DS. I gave up on Dark Souls when I got toxic'd in Blighttown, and I only ever gave it a second (well, third) shot after I read online that the toxic dart snipers don't respawn.

 

People giving up on something isn't evidence of anything, apart from perhaps the fact that most people are lazy, superficials simpletons who immediately give up on stuff when it turns out it's slightly different from what they wanted/are used to.

 

Yeah, some people are giving up on this, but I'm playing it, my friends are playing it, a lot of people on this here forum are playing it... so it's moot point.

 

2 hours ago, jonny_rat said:

there's a straightforward design issue with the second stage that is at odds with what you're saying.

 

No, because what I've been saying — and what you're proving by having this conversation with me on this here online forum — is that no one plays videogames in a vacuum anymore, and that almost everything is easily looked up, discussed and figured out. The notion that people bounce off of Wo Long because of how IMPOSSIBLE it is for people to figure that they need to press two buttons during the second phase, is 100% bullshit. It simply is. The fact that this is a soulslike, a genre largely based on community building and online discourse, is proof of this.

 

It took me less than a minute to figure out what the NPC meant with "use the jade!" after I got killed in phase two for the second. We all have the internet in our literal pockets.

 

2 hours ago, jonny_rat said:

I thought this was supposed to be a 'skill test' - not a 'guess when the fight will randomly end test'.

 

Witty, but no. It's a skill test, as evidenced by the fact that you have to defeat the entirety of phase one, and perfectly parry two subsequent red attacks in phase two before the QTE even activates. But you know this; as with the whole "design issue!!1" thing, you're simply trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Here, I can do that too: the real skill test was figuring out how to use the jade, haven't you figured that out yet?

 

2 hours ago, jonny_rat said:

Remember that bit in BB when you were fighting Gascoigne and he powered up, and then your Blood Rage meter hit 100% and your character killed him in a QTE cutscene?

Wo Long having a first boss that's a bit more gimmicky than literally one of the best game of all time, really isn't the W you think it is.

 

2 hours ago, jonny_rat said:

It's a shame, it's a significant mistake to make because it's putting up an entirely unnecessary barrier to progress in a pretty smart and lovely game and it will hurt it.

It's an easier fight than Father Gascoigne.

 

Again, this entire conversation is beyond stupid and unnecessary, because the simple truth of the matter is that the only people who are deterred by this fight are 1) the more casual gamers who found this on GamePass and aren't really looking for an experience this challenging anyway, and 2) millennial and Gen X curmudgeons who don't want to admit that they're not willing to put in the effort a game like this requires (like Flob, who simply replied 'lol' to someone who was willing to help. It's internet speak for "nah, I can't be bothered". Fine.).

Again, it's the same fucking 'easy mode' conversation, but distilled into a tutorial boss fight. I heard similar arguments when Dark Souls 2 came out, when Bloodborne came out, when Sekiro came out, etc. People always find stuff to complain about whenever a new game like this comes out, despite the fact that it only takes a quick google search or a few extra tries to overcome it all.

It's all so very tiresome. People need to just move the fuck on to other stuff. Like I did, years ago, when I realised that Super Meat Boy was too hard for me.

[Kromeo]

9 hours ago, Timmo said:

Lu Bu down, and what a great boss. For all of my deaths I felt like I needed to be better, rather than the game fucking me over. Very satisfying. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

ONGBAL's a monster. Wow. The bit @ 1:33!!

[BadgerFarmer]

I think the first boss would be fine if it was a skill check for a really tough experience overall, but actually Wo Long is fairly accommodating for the most part, so it feels like a misstep. It's simply a balancing issue, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was altered a little in the coming weeks.

[Popo]

Does the game even tell you what buttons to press to perform the Devine beast? I only did it because I was told on here. 
 

Had I not been told I would have had no idea it was even a thing.
 

It’s obvious the devs want you to use it to end the fight - you’re not supposed to win by fighting. 

[jonny_rat]

7 hours ago, Kromeo said:

What a crock of horse shite.

 

 

A design issue?

 

It's merely one tough fight, highlighted by the fact that 1) it's placed very early in the game, and 2) it's way more doable than it seems because most of the second phase can be skipped with an obfuscated, but easily googlable QTE.

That's not a design issue; that's a cheeky, fully intended skill gate, and a primer for things to come. 

 

 

So? People give up on plenty of games, for plenty of reasons, all the time. Often for wrong reasons, too. I remember quitting on Kirby for being "childish bullshit that basically plays itself"... until someone showed me it had a surprisingly complex, difficult and rewarding boss rush mode on the 3DS. I gave up on Dark Souls when I got toxic'd in Blighttown, and I only ever gave it a second (well, third) shot after I read online that the toxic dart snipers don't respawn.

 

People giving up on something isn't evidence of anything, apart from perhaps the fact that most people are lazy, superficials simpletons who immediately give up on stuff when it turns out it's slightly different from what they wanted/are used to.

 

Yeah, some people are giving up on this, but I'm playing it, my friends are playing it, a lot of people on this here forum are playing it... so it's moot point.

 

 

No, because what I've been saying — and what you're proving by having this conversation with me on this here online forum — is that no one plays videogames in a vacuum anymore, and that almost everything is easily looked up, discussed and figured out. The notion that people bounce off of Wo Long because of how IMPOSSIBLE it is for people to figure that they need to press two buttons during the second phase, is 100% bullshit. It simply is. The fact that this is a soulslike, a genre largely based on community building and online discourse, is proof of this.

 

It took me less than a minute to figure out what the NPC meant with "use the jade!" after I got killed in phase two for the second. We all have the internet in our literal pockets.

 

 

Witty, but no. It's a skill test, as evidenced by the fact that you have to defeat the entirety of phase one, and perfectly parry two subsequent red attacks in phase two before the QTE even activates. But you know this; as with the whole "design issue!!1" thing, you're simply trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Here, I can do that too: the real skill test was figuring out how to use the jade, haven't you figured that out yet?

 

Wo Long having a first boss that's a bit more gimmicky than literally one of the best game of all time, really isn't the W you think it is.

 

It's an easier fight than Father Gascoigne.

 

Again, this entire conversation is beyond stupid and unnecessary, because the simple truth of the matter is that the only people who are deterred by this fight are 1) the more casual gamers who found this on GamePass and aren't really looking for an experience this challenging anyway, and 2) millennial and Gen X curmudgeons who don't want to admit that they're not willing to put in the effort a game like this requires (like Flob, who simply replied 'lol' to someone who was willing to help. It's internet speak for "nah, I can't be bothered". Fine.).

Again, it's the same fucking 'easy mode' conversation, but distilled into a tutorial boss fight. I heard similar arguments when Dark Souls 2 came out, when Bloodborne came out, when Sekiro came out, etc. People always find stuff to complain about whenever a new game like this comes out, despite the fact that it only takes a quick google search or a few extra tries to overcome it all.

It's all so very tiresome. People need to just move the fuck on to other stuff. Like I did, years ago, when I realised that Super Meat Boy was too hard for me.

Simple question - does the rest of the game involve fights that present a new mechanic halfway through and then end on an unspecified set of conditions when a new button combo appears on the screen? If so I'll eat humble pie and say yes, this is a good training exercise for things to come.

 

If not, there's nothing in your post worth responding to. You've misunderstood, in favour of going tilt. (Removed a bit here that was unnecessarily insulting. Sorry) People are giving up on the game unnecessarily. No developer wants that. It's really really simple. It's a misstep, like all games make, and it doesn't need another essay to justify it my dude.

[Gavin]

Has anyone figured out how to throw a pebble as a projectile?

 

I remember in NIOH 1 they proved useful to instantly stun certain enemies (someone on here pointed that out to me) and it'd be cool if it worked similarly here.

 

Got past the first boss, thanks in part to tips read on here, Monkey Magic and I'm now leisurely exploring the next area.

 

Pretty great so far 🙂👍

[Timmo]

17 minutes ago, Gavin said:

Has anyone figured out how to throw a pebble as a projectile?

 

I remember in NIOH 1 they proved useful to instantly stun certain enemies (someone on here pointed that out to me) and it'd be cool if it worked similarly here.

In the equipment menu, in the ranged weapon section, there is room for two weapons and two thrown items. You can equip pebbles, throwing daggers etc there. 

[jonny_rat]

I absolutely love the repositioning deflect thing in this. It feels fantastic and I can see how it might be useful in future fights. 

[jonamok]

Had fun last night trolling the tiger-men in the valley area by bouncing pebbles off their stupid heads. Zhang Bao boss is giving me fiery grief though.

[shirubagan]

Tried to play this via Remote Ply on the iPad this morning and parry timing was nearly impossible. That fraction of a second is crucial. 
 

I’m out now, but looking forward to take that monkey down when I get back. 
 

Edit: Nope. It turns out I am completely incapable of getting the parry timing right. 

[Kromeo]

2 hours ago, BadgerFarmer said:

I think the first boss would be fine if it was a skill check for a really tough experience overall, but actually Wo Long is fairly accommodating for the most part, so it feels like a misstep. It's simply a balancing issue, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was altered a little in the coming weeks.

 

It might feel like a misstep, but people said the same thing about the nunchuck boss in Ninja Gaiden back in the day, despite just needing to learn how to block properly. They said the same thing about Demon's Souls (the red-eyed knight and the HP loss), etc. All things that are looked back on with nostalgia now.

Mark my words, the fight is going to stay the same. If anything changes, it'll merely be a bigger emphasis on the jade activating in the second phase.

 

2 hours ago, Popo said:

Does the game even tell you what buttons to press to perform the Devine beast? I only did it because I was told on here. 

 

IIRC, it tells you, yes, but it doesn't tell you that "using the jade" = activating the divine beast. Either way, your second sentence proves my point.

 

1 hour ago, jonny_rat said:

Simple question - does the rest of the game involve fights that present a new mechanic halfway through and then end on an unspecified set of conditions when a new button combo appears on the screen?

 

Could be, I don't know. I haven't beaten it yet.

 

But, man, It's a tutorial boss. It's supposed to teach you new mechanics. Again, if you can't figure out what to do in a game, and your first reaction is "fuck this game" instead of "hey, let me do a quick google search to see what I may have missed", then you're the problem.

 

 But, sure, reiterate your dumb point as if oblivious to the fact that I've already pointed out, multiple times, that these games have been designed with online discourse in mind for a decade and a half now. 

 

1 hour ago, jonny_rat said:

If not, there's nothing in your post worth responding to.

 

Ha, convenient.

 

Coward.

 

1 hour ago, jonny_rat said:

you're an oh no easy mode person.

 

Nah, I just really like the medium of videogames, and I generally dislike entitled, unlikeable individuals who want to change everything around them but themselves.

 

1 hour ago, jonny_rat said:

People are giving up on the game unnecessarily. 

 

Unnecessarily? Really? Wow, who made you the arbiter of necessity?

 

This is a soulslike. It requires an open mind, patience, timing, and online discourse. The fight itself requires the player to beat a relatively tough but very doable first phase (you can stun lock him, FFS), to parry two massively telegraphed red attacks in phase two, and to then press two buttons. That's it. 

If phase one is too hard for you, then you won't like the rest of the game (there are two tigers in level 3 alone that, until you get all the flags, are harder than the tutorial boss) and if you can't figure out how to do the button prompt, then you haven't learned a thing from 15 years of online Souls discourse. Giving up at that stage will be exactly the right thing to do at that stage.

AGAIN: this is a non-issue. All Team Ninja have decided to do is to put the 'filter' boss right after the tutorial, instead of right after the first level. That's it. If anything, it saves the ones who bounce off of this game an hour or two of their time.

 

1 hour ago, jonny_rat said:

No developer wants that.

 

 

Just take the L already.

(Yes, I know he hasn't been with Team Ninja for ages, but the point still stands.)

 

1 hour ago, jonny_rat said:

It's really really simple. It's a misstep, like all games make, and it doesn't need another essay to justify it my dude.

 

It's really, really simple. Some people are lazy and complacent, like people in general have always been, which means that sometimes they'll decide to uninstall a game instead and bitch about it online, instead of doing a quick Google search. And it doesn't need another cowardly reply that actively chooses not to engage with the arguments to prove that, my guy.

 

 

[HarryBizzle]

I was on board with Kromeo phase 1 but this second phase is really a bit too much for me. It feels unnecessary and really could have done with a bit more QA before release. 

[jonny_rat]

4 minutes ago, Kromeo said:

 

It might feel like a misstep, but people said the same thing about the nunchuck boss in Ninja Gaiden back in the day, despite just needing to learn how to block properly.

Mark my words, the fight is going to stay the same. If anything changes, it'll merely be a bigger emphasis on the jade activating in the second phase.

 

 

IIRC, it tells you, yes, but it doesn't tell you that "using the jade" = activating the divine beast. Either way, your second sentence proves my point.

 

 

Could be, I don't know. I haven't beaten it yet.

 

But, man, It's a tutorial boss. It's supposed to teach you new mechanics. Again, if you can't figure out what to do in a game, and your first reaction is "fuck this game" instead of "hey, let me do a quick google search to see what I may have missed", then you're the problem.

 

 But, sure, reiterate your dumb point as if oblivious to the fact that I've already pointed out, multiple times, that these games have been designed with online discourse in mind for a decade and a half now. 

 

 

Ha, convenient.

 

Coward.

 

 

Nah, I just really like the medium of videogames, and I generally dislike entitled, unlikeable individuals who want to change everything around them but themselves.

 

 

Unnecessarily? Really? Wow, who made you the arbiter of necessity?

 

This is a soulslike. It requires an open mind, patience, timing, and online discourse. The fight itself requires the player to beat a relatively tough but very doable first phase (you can stun lock him, FFS), to parry two massively telegraphed red attacks in phase two, and to then press two buttons. That's it. 

If phase one is too hard for you, then you won't like the rest of the game (there are two tigers in level 3 alone that, until you get all the flags, are harder than the tutorial boss) and if you can't figure out how to do the button prompt, then you haven't learned a thing from 15 years of online Souls discourse. Giving up at that stage will be exactly the right thing to do at that stage.

AGAIN: this is a non-issue. All Team Ninja have decided to do is to put the 'filter' boss right after the tutorial, instead of right after the first level. That's it. If anything, it saves the ones who bounce off of this game an hour or two of their time.

 

 

 

Just take the L already.

(Yes, I know he hasn't been with Team Ninja for ages, but the point still stands.)

 

 

It's really, really simple. Some people are lazy and complacent, like people in general have always been, which means that sometimes they'll decide to uninstall a game instead and bitch about it online, instead of doing a quick Google search. And it doesn't need another cowardly reply that actively chooses not to engage with the arguments to prove that, my guy.

 

 

 

Oh I engaged the arguments. You just didn't like the responses. You're trying to call this a non-issue, which maybe it is for you; I don't think the developers would see it that way. No developer wants to see players give up on their game when they think that player is the type of person to enjoy it.

 

It's really pretty funny to see anyone try to turn this into a sort of culture wars, 'kids-these-days' thing. The game itself looks - to me - like a nice step forward for the genre. There is some genuinely useful stuff in here that makes the game approachable and interesting to players who've bounced off soulsy games before. I like the devs. I want to see their game do well, especially on Game Pass which will be encouraging a lot of people to dip into it this week.

 

So, one last point:

Quote

But, man, It's a tutorial boss. It's supposed to teach you new mechanics. Again, if you can't figure out what to do in a game, and your first reaction is "fuck this game" instead of "hey, let me do a quick google search to see what I may have missed", then you're the problem.

It doesn't teach the mechanic. This is the issue. It makes you think that you have a whole extra fight to do. It isn't about judging people for their response to it, which you seem so keen to do, it's about a great game losing its audience with a simple misstep. I will leave you to bounce your head off it time and time again until your blood pressure rises the sky. Anyway, I'm sure it's not an issue, the devs didn't have to put out a tweet or anything to clarify what players have to do.

 

 

[jonny_rat]

5 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

I was on board with Kromeo phase 1 but this second phase is really a bit too much for me. It feels unnecessary and really could have done with a bit more QA before release. 

 

I know it looks like a lot, but in a minute a button combination will flash up on screen and it'll turn them into a puppy dog.

[Kayin Amoh]

Everyone's complaining about the first boss, yet nobody's complaining about the fact it doesn't tell you that you should be holding down guard to do sneak attacks without breaking into a sprint nanoseconds from your intended victim's back.

[Timmo]

1 minute ago, Kayin Amoh said:

Everyone's complaining about the first boss, yet nobody's complaining about the fact it doesn't tell you that you should be holding down guard to do sneak attacks without breaking into a sprint nanoseconds from your intended victim's back.

You can quickly tap block for the same result if the painfully slow walk is annoying you.

[Flub]

I don't even remember it telling me I could guard as well as deflect.

[Kromeo]

15 minutes ago, jonny_rat said:

Anyway, I'm sure it's not an issue, the devs didn't have to put out a tweet or anything to clarify what players have to do.

 

That tweet proves my point, Einstein.

It was intentional. And this little bit of online discourse is helping players externally, without changing the game internally.

[Kromeo]

3 minutes ago, Kayin Amoh said:

Everyone's complaining about the first boss, yet nobody's complaining about the fact it doesn't tell you that you should be holding down guard to do sneak attacks without breaking into a sprint nanoseconds from your intended victim's back.

If you hold block, you can jump towards your opponent and they won't suspect a thing. It's hilarious.

[jonny_rat]

2 minutes ago, Kromeo said:

 

That tweet proves my point, Einstein.

It was intentional. And this little bit of online discourse is helping players externally, without changing the game internally.

 

Haha, okay, mr mental gymnastics. The tweet definitely wasn't the studio having a moment of panic and seeing how many of their potential players were nope-ing out at introduction of a key mechanic.

 

 

[Stanley]

16 hours ago, Kromeo said:

 

The more niche something is, the less it's made to be popular, the more it tends to follow a very specific focus, vision and/or design ethos. And in a world where media often gets designed by committee, the more hardcore visions tend to get revered somewhat, yes. Can't say I blame people for that.

 

It's the same for other media, as well. Have you ever heard people who are into death metal talk about the music they love? The focus on extremities is inherently gatekeepy; you can't make something more palatable for broader audiences without taking away those extremities (and, sometimes, by extension, its soul).

 

The fight is bafflingly hard for a first boss, yes, but you seem to be forgetting that this got released in a post Dark Souls world. Remember, Dark Souls, the game that obfuscated a lot of its design in order to actively motivate players to spread tips, tricks, lore, battle strategies and general game information through the magic of the internet? Dark Souls, the game that basically created the concept of game wikis? I don't understand why some of you keep judging Wo Long as if it exists in a vacuum, while this very thread is evidence that spreading information on how to beat the boss is one of the keys to actually doing so. (I didn't know you could skip most of the second form by activating the spirit animal thing until I looked it up, for instance.) You can't tell me that's unintentional; game design that takes into account how gamers might interact with the game outside of the actual game, is game design as well.

 

I'm not defending Team Ninja here, per se; I just dislike how rare it is for gamers to truthfully criticise themselves before they criticise supposed 'bad design'.

 

Personally, I found it refreshing and somewhat hilarious that a non-indie game is willing to filter out its player base so vehemently, and I kind of respect it, but, hey that's just me.

 

The boss really ain't that bad, guys.

It’s fundamentally different from other types of media such as music. If you buy a heavy metal album, death metal or whatever, then it’s likely you’re interested enough in the first place to warrant the purchase. The difference is that you can listen to it any way you like, tack by track, as whole, in reverse order. Games are the opposite in that you have meet certain conditions or increase your skill to get further, and it’s beyond reach for some no matter how hard they try or how much they might enjoy the game otherwise. They are prevented from enjoying the media they’ve purchased due to stubborn decisions made by the designers. 
 

I’m all for difficulty and accessibility options for that reason alone. It doesn’t harm the original vision for those who want it and can still access it that way, but it does open the game up to much wider audience of less skilled players. 
 

To use your comparison it’s like releasing a movie without subtitles and expecting viewers to learn a foreign language before they can enjoy it, and then if they complain pointing them towards to the internet to look for a translation. 

[deerokus]

The tutorial is definitely crap.

[Kromeo]

8 minutes ago, jonny_rat said:

 

Haha, okay, mr mental gymnastics. The tweet definitely wasn't the studio having a moment of panic and seeing how many of their potential players were nope-ing out at introduction of a key mechanic.

 

Correct, it wasn't. It's exactly the kind of stuff a community manager would tweet on a daily basis. Trust me, I should know.

 

If the studio was in panic mode, they would've patched the boss by now, not send out a message on a social network with medium popularity. Also note that the tweet in question is a week old. 

No one's panicking. You're just coping.