Why do I have to to agree to a 20 page licence and service agreement to be able to play a game?

[Goemon]

This has probably been done already but I wasn’t sure what best to search for.

 

I just loaded up Crash Bandicoot 4 and the first thing I’m hit with is a 20 page (yes, 20) licence and service agreement. Just scrolling through probably takes a whole minute. 
 

I had the option to decline, so I did and it told me I couldn’t play the game without agreeing. Wait, you mean the the game I just paid £50 for? (I didn’t, but for the sake of argument)

 

I decided to actually have a look at it and it’s just a wall of incoherent jargon, that 99% of people aren’t going to understand. 

 

This didn’t used to be here, so why is it here now? What are we generally signing away when we agree to these things?

 

I have in the past happily skipped though these in the past and just accepted blindly but this giant thing caused me to pause and actually take a step back, what are you actually agreeing to here?

[MattyP]

Had the same on an EA game I tried a bit back. Perhaps some rules have changed in some country somewhere and this has to be a thing? Or company policies have changed or something for that particular publisher? A bit rubbish from a user experience point of view though.

 

Think when you use any software service or even console hardware there are T&C's but there usually hidden somewhere and have something like "By using this you agree to the following..."

[Gotters]

I'm in the blindly agreeing group (as I suspect all gamers are)

 

I always hope it's them covering their arse from a lawsuits or class actions down the line regarding character likeness to real people, withdrawing online services and generally having no responsibility towards me for anything ever for the money I've paid for the game beyond statutory rights in your local country. Basically my agreement stops me ever suing them. 

 

It's either something like that or I now owe EA/Microsoft/Nintendo all my organs when I'm dead.

[Mike1812]

Didn't they used to be in the instruction manual so you could just ignore them?

[Darren]

I always assume they're meaningless arse-covering by twitchy lawyers at the publisher. Wasn't there a ruling somewhere a while ago that said they're basically unenforceable as nobody could be reasonably expected to actually read it all, never mind understand it?

[phillv85]

2 hours ago, Goemon said:

what are you actually agreeing to here?

 

[Down by Law]

Only seems to be big shit companies like Activision, Bethesda and EA.

I don't recall any on the last few games i got:

Sonic Frontiers

TMNT Shredder's Revenge

SIFU

Alan Wake Remastered

 

I don't recall Horizon Forbidden West having one either, and if Sony can't be arsed with all that legal shit that says a lot

 

[K]

I'm generally happy to just click through, as it's not like it's a loan or a tenancy agreement - I struggle to see how much damage signing it could do, given that you can't sign away statutory rights and if it were an unfair contract, I'm sure it would get challenged.

[deerokus]

They're generally unenforceable afaik

[smac]

I read an EA agreement on an iPad game once - which explicitly said you had to agree to all of their data collection, and linking it up to personal data if they could, or you could go play something else. No agreement, no playing the game you just paid for.

 

Thing is, it was pretty well written that way - 'your choice is to agree to data collection or not to play the game, we don't care'. Wish I'd taken a screen shot of it.

 

Was a Need for Speed or similar.

[K]

What data can they collect from me playing a Need for Speed game? Genuine question - presumably they wouldn't have access to any of the personal information from elsewhere on my Xbox / PSN profile (i.e. what films I watch, how much money I spend in the store, what adverts I click on or what I watch on Youtube).

[smac]

Sure, it could have been innocuous in-game data, but it was the 'lol, agree or fuck off and play something else' tone that struck me at the time. Maybe I had to set up an EA account to play? I can't remember - that tends to be Ubisoft's bag, if I recall correctly.

[CurryKitten]

I tend to think that the idea that people simply blindly click accept without reading them is absolutely accepted... perhaps to the point that if ever there was a legal dispute and they are saying "you agreed to the Ts&Cs" you'd be perfectly valid in arguing that nobody ever reads them, and the publisher is aware of this.

 

I can't see any possible reason that this would ever come up, but I'd like to see it play out in some US courtroom drama... or even better Phoenix Wright shouting "Objection"

 

Has anyone with an understanding of the legal system actually read it.  i assume it's lots of disclaimers saying they reserve the right to withdraw any online services, and you agree not to copy it, reverse engineer and if you kill anyone because you say the game told you to, it's not the publishers fault?

[Popo]

3 hours ago, CurryKitten said:

I can't see any possible reason that this would ever come up, but I'd like to see it play out in some US courtroom drama... or even better Phoenix Wright shouting "Objection"

And here’s the twist - the EULA is from Wright’s own game. 

[MarkN]

9 hours ago, Darren said:

I always assume they're meaningless arse-covering by twitchy lawyers at the publisher. Wasn't there a ruling somewhere a while ago that said they're basically unenforceable as nobody could be reasonably expected to actually read it all, never mind understand it?

This definitely. Also, I remember reading a long while back where the EULA for one game had been copied from another (from a different publisher) and still referenced something that made this blatantly obvious, meaning that the people who published the silly thing hadn't read it either.

[dumpster]

Mr Driller Drill Land has 2 different sets of terms and conditions to agree too.  What sort of a world do we live in when Mr Driller had 2 different sets of terms and conditions? Mr Driller!!!!

[Strafe]

9 hours ago, K said:

What data can they collect from me playing a Need for Speed game? Genuine question - presumably they wouldn't have access to any of the personal information from elsewhere on my Xbox / PSN profile (i.e. what films I watch, how much money I spend in the store, what adverts I click on or what I watch on Youtube).

How far you go before dropping off (did you peg it in after 5 hours or play to the end). How much side content you do (and is it worth putting the same amount in next time or changing it). A vague play style and skill assessment. (How you play, are you any good). Probably some other bits I haven’t thought of.

 

This is gathered en masse and they can use it to decide on next features, game length, side content etc 

[englishbob]

I think playing the rather hefty license agreement was the best thing about the recent Battlefield game launch

 

They are mostly there for Americans to read and get upset about and issue a class action lawsuit against a minor thing - when most of us just shrug and get on with it

[Nick R]

3 hours ago, dumpster said:

Mr Driller Drill Land has 2 different sets of terms and conditions to agree too.  What sort of a world do we live in when Mr Driller had 2 different sets of terms and conditions? Mr Driller!!!!

 

In a dangerous activity like mining, you've got to have watertight legal contracts.

[TehStu]

14 hours ago, K said:

What data can they collect from me playing a Need for Speed game? Genuine question - presumably they wouldn't have access to any of the personal information from elsewhere on my Xbox / PSN profile (i.e. what films I watch, how much money I spend in the store, what adverts I click on or what I watch on Youtube).

What data can they collect from an iPad? Everything iOS hemorrhages, I guess. Probably quite a bit less on consoles. I guess your email (if account linking) allows them to tie you back to all the other big data sets. Maybe they like to sell when you play, could advertisers use that to flog something else?

[smac]

Basically, potentially any of the above. I chose to fuck off and play something else.

 

Which probably did all the same shit anyway, only without telling me.

[SozzlyJoe]

If I was some sort of go-getter activist I would organise some sort of mass protest where everyone bought the latest blockbuster, announced they disagreed with the terms and conditions, and demanded a refund en-masse.

 

Alternatively, make the CEO of the company sit down and personally record themselves reading the terms aloud, audio book style.

[dumpster]

I believe that at some point a judge threw out a case, setting a precedent, basically saying terms and conditions are not enforceable because no-one will ever read a document longer than Shakespeare's complete works just to use iTunes.  

[SozzlyJoe]

1 minute ago, dumpster said:

I believe that at some point a judge threw out a case, setting a precedent, basically saying terms and conditions are not enforceable because no-one will ever read a document longer than Shakespeare's complete works just to use iTunes.  

 

You'd have to ask why they keep doing it then, some cargo cult bullshit no doubt. EU needs to get on this, never mind stupid cookies!

[Plissken]

God, I remember the days when you had a sealed envelope with the disc and the licence agreement inside it.  By breaking the seal you agreed to the terms of the licence, which you couldn't have actually read yet.  I believe a judge threw that one in the bin.

[SozzlyJoe]

1 minute ago, Plissken said:

God, I remember the days when you had a sealed envelope with the disc and the licence agreement inside it.  By breaking the seal you agreed to the terms of the licence, which you couldn't have actually read yet.  I believe a judge threw that one in the bin.

 

I remember some interesting activism around this method too - apparently if presented with a contract, you can write and and initial your own proposed changes for the other party to accept. The premise being that as the other party had dreamed up this 'open to auto accept' they would apply to these write in changes too. Even less likely to be enforceable, but amusing nonetheless.

[dumpster]

Gamestation, a company who were popular in the period before smartphones changed their name to Gestation every time I tried to type it just now, changed their terms and conditions on April 1st to make sure that all customers pledged their alliegance to the overlords or something.  It was a great stunt but weirdly, everyone involved in the stunt immediately lost their hair. 

 

https://bit-tech.net/news/gaming/pc/gamestation-we-own-your-soul/1/

 

 

[Oh Danny Boy]

This is really infuriating. Want to play a quick bash of Doom64 on my switch, a game I’ve owned for years. Nope now you have to sign into a Bethesda account to do so. Enter details tediously on the pad, no you’ve already got an account, sign in with details, passwords incorrect, now have to go onto Bethesda’s website to change password, fifteen minutes later still waiting for the email to change password. Fuck you Bethesda! 
 

Not sure what this means long term. Do I now have to be online to play games I already own so that Bethesda can verify my account?

[joffocakes]

I downloaded Overwatch 2 because it was Free to Play then when I started the game it asked me to create an account to play so I just ended up deleting it because I couldn't be arsed.

 

Generally I just hammer agree on the agreements though. I like when you can hold Right or R or whatever to skip to the end more quickly. 

[thesnwmn]

I skip through them the same way i skip through dialog that is trying to tell me the riveting story in games*. Of course similarly, I'll occasionally miss something important.

 

* There are rare exceptions

 

But agreed that account creation is basically a blocker unless I'm really really into your game or the idea of it. Which means if it's a Game Pass game and requires it I'm almost certainly not bothering because I just wanted to dabble and see if it was worth playing. Instead I just feel ill will towards the publisher going forwards and reduce the chance I buy their future output.