Difficulty in games

[linkster]

How many people here have actually been put off from sticking with a driving game because it was too hard?

Take something like F355 as an example. To all those who didn't stick with it, what was the problem? Was it the fact that learning to drive it took patience and perseverence, or was it the lack of variety that put you off?

I'm very interested in finding out if people fundamentally have a problem with a racing simulator. That is a game that actively seeks to make you experience driving an authentic car as closely as possible. My theory is that I don't stick with the majority of games on the market because they're geared towards getting people round the track racing against other cars as quickly as possible. Only they leave me cold because the actual sensation of racing is so unpredictable, leaving them forced to extend the lifespan of the game by having numerous unlockables.

I just cannot believe it's about difficulty. Games have always been difficult. All the arcade games I started playing in arcades had to be learned and took perseverance. That's why I spent so long trying to learn them. So I just don't believe that if a racing simulator is done well, with variety, good tutorials and interfaces, yet keeps that driving authenticity, it won't sell well because it's "too hard".

Thoughts?

[Badger]

Gran Tourismo, F355 and Project Gotham Racing were all quite hard to beging with.

With GT and PGR it was the licences and cone tests....for F355 it was the entire experience....and they're the three racing games I like the most.

I think it depends on the person and what they're looking for...fun, or as real an experience of actually racing as possible...

[Sng]

I'm actually having trouble passing the second driving test in Sega GT.

I hate games that are hard. If I have to redo the same thing more than 5 or so times then I'll simply never play the game ever again! They need more difficulty settings.

[jeff mills gran]

How many people here have actually been put off from sticking with a driving game because it was too hard?

Take something like F355 as an example. To all those who didn't stick with it, what was the problem? Was it the fact that learning to drive it took patience and perseverence, or was it the lack of variety that put you off?

I'm very interested in finding out if people fundamentally have a problem with a racing simulator. That is a game that actively seeks to make you experience driving an authentic car as closely as possible. My theory is that I don't stick with the majority of games on the market because they're geared towards getting people round the track racing against other cars as quickly as possible. Only they leave me cold because the actual sensation of racing is so unpredictable, leaving them forced to extend the lifespan of the game by having numerous unlockables.

I just cannot believe it's about difficulty. Games have always been difficult. All the arcade games I started playing in arcades had to be learned and took perseverance. That's why I spent so long trying to learn them. So I just don't believe that if a racing simulator is done well, with variety, good tutorials and interfaces, yet keeps that driving authenticity, it won't sell well because it's "too hard".

Thoughts?

I think what people fail to realise is that racing @ high speed is actually quite a hard thing to do.. to simulate this would translate into a hard game.

You either relish this challenge or lash the disc in the bin and play burnout. A steering wheel and more realistic controls help thou.

[suzakuseven]

I hate games that are hard. If I have to redo the same thing more than 5 or so times then I'll simply never play the game ever again! They need more difficulty settings.

Agreed. Though some people will always complain about games getting easier/shorter/whatever, I believe the gamer should always have the choice of how difficult they find the game. Otherwise they feel they've wasted mony on it.

[jeff mills gran]

I'm actually having trouble passing the second driving test in Sega GT.

I hate games that are hard. If I have to redo the same thing more than 5 or so times then I'll simply never play the game ever again! They need more difficulty settings.

the dreamcast version? the dc version is hard due to it being utterly shit.

[Sng]

Xbox version, I recently got it for Online.

[D-Side]

Regarding F355, I'm not convinced of it's supposed simulator status. It's unforgiving hard and hardcore through and through, but for me, it really doesn't capture the feel of track racing or the thrill of driving fast. Plus, the handling feedback is rather weak at best, resulting in a racer that lacks the instinctive nature of its' real life counterpart.

[linkster]

Agreed. Though some people will always complain about games getting easier/shorter/whatever, I believe the gamer should always have the choice of how difficult they find the game. Otherwise they feel they've wasted mony on it.

I quite agree, driving aids are very important. What I'm trying to get at though is the difference between making the challenge in your game first and foremost keeping the car on the road. If that is the core mechanic, does that strike people as too much to ask of a player?

[linkster]

Regarding F355, I'm not convinced of it's supposed simulator status. It's unforgiving hard and hardcore through and through, but for me, it really doesn't capture the feel of track racing or the thrill of driving fast. Plus, the handling feedback is rather weak at best, resulting in a racer that lacks the instinctive nature of its' real life counterpart.

Yeah, I don't want to praise it too highly, a friend who's driven a Ferrari regularly basically echoed those sentiments. It's just the closest recent console example I can think of.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

If that is the core mechanic, does that strike people as too much to ask of a player?

For me, yes.

PGR 2 is simply too hard to be fun for me. I don't believe the handling is realistic. The cars are hard to handle even at low speeds

I know admitting you find games hard is some sort of Taboo on here - queue lots of snide digs...

[Sng]

Have you tried Sega GT Online? It's far easier to drive with that. The cars actually brake for a start!

[Dude Ranch]

I never buy proper driving games cos I just dont get them. Powerslides, skids, handbrake turns etc. are all lost on me. I think I understand the theory but I just can't do it. I drive around in GT3 like I do in real life, slowing right down for corners etc. I more often than not just skid off even though I'm going slower than I should be.

If anyone can help I'd appreciate it. I fear I really need to sit down with someone for a few hours though .

[linkster]

I know admitting you find games hard is some sort of Taboo on here - queue lots of snide digs...

Not at all. The thing is though, games became a phenomenon despite their difficulty. It seems to me nowadays that trying to get a game like the one I described made would be backed off from because games are perceived as having to be dumbed down to have any chance of selling big, i.e. not put the majority off, I just can't believe that's the case.

[Sng]

If anyone can help I'd appreciate it. I fear I really need to sit down with someone for a few hours though

Two different styles really.

People either keep the accelerator down all the time and rock onto the brake at the same time to slow down. That's a safe technique, but pretty boring.

Then there's the people that floor it, come off the accelerator approaching a corner, turn in and then put their foot down again to get a tad of oversteer on the way out.

That's it basically. Both methods have lots of ways of doing it though.

[D-Side]

I know admitting you find games hard is some sort of Taboo on here - queue lots of snide digs...

Not at all. I can see why people wouldn't like PGR2. Presumably these people are not particularly fond of their racers, mind. For me, PGR2 really has redefined the racer again, not through its' online component, but through its' physics: the perfect mix of arcade thrills with the unforgiving nature of a sim. The cars may not represent the real deal, but they certainly feel genuine. Caricatures then. Supercars, manga style.

[Sng]

I can freely admit I'm shit at games I can pick up and play any game and be reasonably good from the start, I don't have the patience to get really good at anything.

That's the reason Jak and Daxter is one of my favourite PS2 games, it was dead easy. Same with MGS2 I guess, although that fucked me off for obvious reasons.

[Rocko]

For me, yes.

PGR 2 is simply too hard to be fun for me. I don't believe the handling is realistic. The cars are hard to handle even at low speeds

I know admitting you find games hard is some sort of Taboo on here - queue lots of snide digs...

The thing I found different about PGR2 is that I am getting better at it. Generally I don't like driving games, I find them bloody hard, and no fun.

PGR2, however, I've peservered with (I've no idea why) and have found that it's slowly fallen into place. I'll never finish the game with all platinums or anything - I'm quite simply not that good - but I've become quite reasonable at it. There was just enough reward in it to keep me playing, and I improved at just enough of a rate to keep me interested. Other realistic driving games I've played (eg GT) I just never cared enough about to put the effort in.

PGR2 obviously isn't a sim by a long shot. Its got realistic physics for cornering etc(apparently), but tanking into a wall at 100+mph and just bouncing off is hardly realism. But that suits me - it's as close to a driving sim as I would personally like.

[Sng]

I've shown you the reason for the apparently lack of steering!

For me, at least...

[GaryC]

I can freely admit I'm shit at games I can pick up and play any game and be reasonably good from the start, I don't have the patience to get really good at anything.

That's the reason Jak and Daxter is one of my favourite PS2 games, it was dead easy. Same with MGS2 I guess, although that fucked me off for obvious reasons.

I can see your point, but I think games for me would lose a lot of the challenge and glee of achieving something if I just happened to sail through the story.

I suppose most of my best videogaming memories derive from overcoming the seemingly impossible - like beating Omega Pirate (a highly difficult enemy for my paltry videogaming skills to overcome).

I think maybe the type of game, and the license/promotion of the game are more of a priority than the difficulty - I mean Vice City is a difficult game in terms of some of the missions you have to pull off, but it sold bucketloads for different reasons to difficulty.

[Mr. Pin?]

I suppose one way to make the steering model in driving games more realistic would be something along the lines of Driving Emotion Type S. And what a load of crap that was. Far too difficult for those unprepared to try and learn it.

For me, F355 is the closest any driving game has come to simulate racing. The field was pretty much level (with there only being one car in the game and all), so it was up to the driver's skill to make the difference.

[Sng]

I can see your point, but I think games for me would lose a lot of the challenge and glee of achieving something if I just happened to sail through the story

That's the thing with me though, I don't play games to be challenged. Quite the opposite, I see gaming as a chance for me to just chill out and have some fun. Being challenged to the point of frustration is far from fun when it comes to videogames, for me at least.

It's the having to repeat whole sections again that annoys me. Feels like reading a book but repeating the same chapter over and over. No matter how fun, it will get tiring after a while.

[ScouserInExile]

The difficulty was my only complaint with GT3, because it went:

Really fucking easy -> Fucking easy -> Easy -> Really fucking hard

It took me ages to beat the last couple of race series and by the end of it, I wasn't doing it because I was having fun, I was doing it because it had pissed me off so much that I was determined to beat it.

[Rocko]

The difficulty was my only complaint with GT3, because it went:

Really fucking easy -> Fucking easy -> Easy -> Really fucking hard

It took me ages to beat the last couple of race series and by the end of it, I wasn't doing it because I was having fun, I was doing it because it had pissed me off so much that I was determined to beat it.

<g> yes, that's kind of where I am with PGR2 now. I'm trying to convert all my silver medals to gold, but christ some of them are difficult. Each one I get seems to take twice as long as the one before it. I am slowing getting there, but I'm not sure how much of it actually qualifies as "fun", and how much as "sheer bloody-mindedness".

[Caleb Newcastle]

My problem isn't that games are too difficult, just that I completely suck at the games I really want to like.

I love Gitaroo Man but it took me 3 fucking hours to beat Mojo King Bee and I still can't get past Ben K. Frequency is a lost cause on anything above the first difficulty level. Mad Maestro, Beatmania, Dance Dance revolution... I could just get my dick out and wave it at the screen for all the good it would do me. I just don't have rhythm.

2d beat 'em ups too. Own tonnes of the bastards but I have to practise for hours at a time if I want to have any chance against even the most cack handed of my mates. Even then I have to be playing a character that suits my style. If anyone wants a laugh just come watch me try to play as Rock Howard on Capcom vs SNK 2. Poetry in motion

[Mogget]

If you want a difficult driving game, then get Grand Prix Legends for the PC.

It is nothing short of superb.