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Graphics Don't Matter?


dizogg
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I just got thinking how alot of people, including me, think that GTAIII was pretty revolutionary. But in reality its not much different to the original GTA. The main difference being that its in 3D. Do you think its the fact its got 3D graphics makes it so much better? I can't think of any other reason. Maybe its the opportunitys that a 3D world opens up.

Do you think 3D graphics makes a big difference makes a big difference in how good a game is? I do. Whereas there are plenty of exceptions to the rule, as theres lots of 2D classics out there, I think truly I prefer a 3D game 9 times out of 10. Or maybe games have got a lot deeper in general. Open up a Snes or Megadrive emulator now for example and load up some games. Most of them will only hold my attention for quite a short amount of time before they get tired. Whereas games these days seem so much more... better. What do you think?

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GTA3>GTA. For me it's the involving plot, the world to explore (you get so much more involved in a 3D world when the main part of the game is your freedom to explore it), the mission structure.

The original GTA to me was a 10 minute pleasure, like Crazy Taxi. I swiftly got bored of it after 10 minutes. To me GTA in 3D just works better, its very suited to 3D

That said I love 2D games with a passion. I don't share your apathy towards retro and a lot of my favorite games at the moment are on the GBA.

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I can't say I agree that modern games are any better than what's been before.

There are still many 2D games I'd happily choose over new 3D efforts. For me Yoshi's Island is still the best platformer ever made, while games like Zelda Link to the Past & Super Metroid are as good as the newer 3D sequels.

I'd also choose any of the old 2D Sonics over the new 3D games any day of the week. Also add to that the GBA has been throwing some great 2D games that I've spent many hours on such as the Advance Wars games, Mario & Luigi, Metroid Fusion, Wario Ware Inc etc.

There have been great games in the past, just as there are great games now. I still think many of the old classics of the 8 & 16-bit era stand up well today.

As for GTA3 I think it helped bring people to the series that turned their noses up at "old" graphics. I know more than a few people who wouldn't even give the original GTA a chance as it "looked crappy". It's funny to see their reaction when you change the view in GTA3 to the top down view. :)

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It's funny to see their reaction when you change the view in GTA3 to the top down view. :)

The thing with the top down view in GTA3 is it's just so... I don't know, "why have cotton when you can have silk" sort of thing.

The original GTA was great. I had no complaints about it being top down 2D, but I don't think anyone can say they didn't think, even for a split second, "I wonder just how great this would be in 3D like Driver".

And GTA3 is what we got, much to my/our delight.

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anyone can say they didn't think, even for a split second, "I wonder just how great this would be in 3D like Driver".

Obviously nobody thought that as GTA came first. And Driver is little more than a rip of GTA but in 3D.

Ironically both games use 1978 film titles. Driver even copies a key scene from its film inspiration (The Driver).

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The thing with the top down view in GTA3 is it's just so... I don't know, "why have cotton when you can have silk" sort of thing.

The original GTA was great. I had no complaints about it being top down 2D, but I don't think anyone can say they didn't think, even for a split second, "I wonder just how great this would be in 3D like Driver".

And GTA3 is what we got, much to my/our delight.

Yeah, I just find it funny how little the series has appeared to change when you play it from that view. Although the out of car weapon handling is better when using the top down approach. :)

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Obviously nobody thought that as GTA came first. And Driver is little more than a rip of GTA but in 3D.

Yes, I know. But it's not like everyone stopped playing GTA the moment Driver came out. The "like Driver" part of that sentence would obviously have been stuck in after Driver came out. The thought of GTA being in 3D was always present I feel.

Driver just showed a big 3D world could be done.

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It made a huge difference. It made the world immersive.

I agree is was not only graphics (which were good, but buggy), but the way you interacted within, the wonderful way the habitants acted, and the sounds of the city (FX and music), the weather and night/day cycles.

And the physics. They were cool, given the complexity of the world.

Driver is hardly GTA 3D. The games inspired one another, and focused on the physics, which is why it was such a great game.

If a Dev. team cite another game as their inspiration, thats no bad thing when they actually better the game. Driver's only fault was the pop-up. The game was a joy to play.

Its a shame very few actually do that.

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It made a huge difference. It made the world immersive.

I agree is was not only graphics (which were good, but buggy), but the way you interacted within, the wonderful way the habitants acted, and the sounds of the city (FX and music), the weather and night/day cycles.

And the physics. They were cool, given the complexity of the world.

Agree 100%, everything you say made GTA3 a game that I happily played for 80 hours, whereas GTA bored me after 10 minutes. Its truly an example of a game where the 2D->3D transformation made the game so much better.

There's very few examples of that however IMHO. Mario 64 is a great game, but honestly I prefer to play SMW or Yoshi's Island. Zelda is great in 3D, but its also great in 2D, I pretty much like both equally. Metroid Prime is a fantastic game, but I don't enjoy it more than Metroid Zero Mission. Sonic Games have become far worse in 3D than they were in 2D.

Can anyone give any examples other than GTA where the move to 3D has actually improved the game?

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Can anyone give any examples other than GTA where the move to 3D has actually improved the game?

Bloody hell, I can't think of a single one. Although I can think of a fair few that have suffered from it though.

Pilotwings? I'd say the N64 version improved on the SNES one.

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What about fighting games. I think they are just different. A good 2D game is better than a crap 3D one and vice versa. The dimensional change really hasn't made much different. Only games such as Power Stone have explored a 3D element of fighting games.

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Really?  I found the N64 one unplayable, mainly due to the framerate.

Besides, both games were 3D.  N64 used polygons and a proper 3D (not flat) world but both used all 3D dimensions in the same way.

I was usure about mentioning Pilotwings as I see how you can say the SNES was was 3D also.

I must admit that I did prefer the N64 version. I can't say the framerate bothered me at the time, although it's been a good while since I last played it.

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Its made a fantastic difference with Football. I rememeber when FIFA on 3D0 was played on all the big screens and game stores all over and just drooling. I'm sure that game sold a few machines for Panni.

The games just looked real (for the time).

As for fighting games, i think they're better without a doubt. 3D does let you see the world as it is and games like DOA2 and Tekken showcase that.

Again, physics (see Rocky) are needed to improve the fighting genres else thaey could stagnate.

With rocky, you feel like your beating six bells out of someone.

Fighting games need that 'urgency' and violence to make them enjoyable.

I also enjoyed the Bushido series as that forced strategy into the game. Again, these games would be difficult in 2D as you rarely feel as immersed and that is the icing on the game.

Arguably, the move to 3D was not so important, but added a fresh slant.

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Maybe not just graphic but sound and the whole presentation experience makes modern games seem better now.

Example played Golden Axe on MAME last night and it felt prettry rubbish (despite the warm glowing memories), but I throughly enjoyed the two EA LOTR games. The gameplay in both is very similar so what makes the PS2 game better then the ancient arcade machine?

I dunno maybe I am just a visual whore! :)

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Its made a fantastic difference with Football. I rememeber when FIFA on 3D0 was played on all the big screens and game stores all over and just drooling. I'm sure that game sold a few machines for Panni.

As for fighting games, i think they're better without a doubt. 3D does let you see the world as it is and games like DOA2 and Tekken showcase that.

Again, physics (see Rocky) are needed to improve the fighting genres else that could well stale. With rocky, you feel light your beating six bells out of someone.

Fighting games need that 'urgency' and violence to make them enjoyable. I also enjoyed the Bushido series as that forced strategy into the game. Again, these games would be difficult in 2D as you rarely feel as immersed and that is the icing on the game.

I disagree that you can't be immersed in a 2D gaming world.

I can see that 3D opens new avenues, but I still think we killed off 2D far to quickly as I still think many genres in that style had plenty to offer that 3D so far has failed in. Platformers for one have become collection based adventure games more than anything. I still think the purest example of that genre was done in 2D, and that they should still be making them today.

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Um, Football games in general?

I know some would disagree with me, but I find all 3D football games to be far, far better than thier top down cousins.

I haven't really played many I must admit, despite being a huge football fan, I've never had much fun playing FIFA etc. However that said I do have Winning Eleven 6 on the PS2 (I'm in the US, so WE6 = PES2) and like it a lot.

However - I must honestly admit that I've had more hours of fun on Sensi Soccer than on any 3D football game.

[off topic]Oh why oh why can't they release a GBA version of Sensi[/off topic]

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[off topic]Oh why oh why can't they release a GBA version of Sensi[/off topic]

I would guess the smaller screen size of the GBA could be a factor, would you be able to see enoungh of the pitch with the players still visable to a decent standard?

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I would guess the smaller screen size of the GBA could be a factor, would you be able to see enoungh of the pitch with the players still visable to a decent standard?

Well I had the GB version of Sensi and it worked OK, apart from it ran a little too sluggishly.

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Has it really made a fantastic difference with football?

Play Winning Eleven on the GBA. It's 2D, it's every bit as playable as Playstation titles (given the lack of buttons, it's a marvellous job) and aside from the framerate not matching up to a PS2 game, it's the same game.

It'd play better with more moves and stronger AI, and the graphics have nothing to do with it.

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Yup. That's why the SWOS view is still perfectly playable today.

Which makes me think a few genres just can't be improved by graphics. Try as I might, I can't get into 3D platformers unless they've got a 2D design at heart, like Prince of Persia or those Mario Sunshine levels that you lose your water pack. The 2D scrolling fighter - has there really been an improvement in 3D? Not really, it's the same gameplay. Many more out there are the same.

3D's great, but only really in genres that have craved it since the start.

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