Preowned - It's Killing The Industry!!!

[Super Craig]

Sorry to nitpick, but...

No-one's using dial up anymore, and consoles have Wifi built in, or as a fairly cheap addon.

The 360 Wi-Fi adaptor is not "fairly cheap". It's a fucking rip-off.

Game have announced the closure of a number of stores. I believe this is just the start.

I bet this has got nothing to do with this topic. There was bound to be a bit of redundancy when they bought Gamestation.

[Karzee]

Gamebiz interview: Codemasters CEO Rod Cousens

The pre-owned market in its current form is destructive to the games industry and killing attempts to extend the length of a game's shelf life, according to Codemasters CEO Rod Cousens.

Confrontational attitudes between retailers and the publishing community is getting "ridiculous", said Cousens, when both should be working together to benefit from each other's business.

"Pre-owned isn't actually new... the difference was that it wasn't a significant percentage of the market, and it was never promoted as aggressively through the retail community as it is today," he said speaking in the second part of an interview with GamesIndustry.biz.

"You could argue for the retailer in that context, but also what it's done is kill things like subsequent exploitation in platinum and classics... and it expands the potential for piracy by default. They would argue that prices would suggest otherwise - I would say not, because by the time you get down through the food chain, a thing gets more and more ripped off.

"So my view is that it needs to be managed. I don't believe that retail is going to disappear soon - I also believe that 35 per cent of the world market that doesn't have broadband, and its only access it through retail, is still a significant part to any content creator."

Cousens said it's possible with a game like F1 2010 that Codemasters could release a smaller game on disc for retailer partners, and then follow up with downloadable content as the Formula One season unfolds, helping to build a bigger game for those that want it, addressing pre-owned and piracy issues.

"It's not inconceivable to say that we send out a Formula One game that's not complete - maybe it's got six tracks. Then they have to buy their next track, and you follow it around the world. When you turn up in Abu Dhabi you have to pay for the circuit, and whatever the changes are to the cars that are put through. That, I think, would deal with a lot of it, and also address the pre-owned."

But he also warned that retailers need to work with publishers or risk alienating them with aggressive second hand selling, which can only escalate to confrontational situations.

"What we have to figure out is how we're going to work together to make this happen. If retail takes a confrontational point of view and says that if we go online, they won't stock the box - and publishers then say that all they're going to do is put out DLC after launch that retail can't participate in... it's ridiculous.

"Actually, you need them to get to the stage where they stock the box. It's not inconceivable that you're going to ask them to give the box away at some point in time. But then, they participate to an extent in the subsequent DLC exploitation," he offered.

Instead of retail and content creators stubbornly fighting their own corner, they need to work together and find a way in which both can benefit from boxed and digital sales, said Cousens, otherwise creativity and the end product could suffer.

"The way it's structured today is destructive, and it's negative to creativity and innovation. I believe it has to be managed - there's an element of it which is acceptable, and there's an element that isn't.

"If the content creators could participate in the secondary or subsequent exploitation, I think that's fair game. I think equally the retailer then has an argument that he should participate in some of the DLC, which they ordinarily wouldn't. By default, you manage the process.

"What I don't buy off on is that retailers are responding to pre-owned because that's what consumer traffic tells them. If you put the price at zero, you'll get even more traffic, but where does that go?"

[Harsin]

I thought Codemasters were already pretty adept in putting out unfinished games.

[BeeJay]

"It's not inconceivable to say that we send out a Formula One game that's not complete"

This made me lol

I thought Codemasters were already pretty adept in putting out unfinished games.

touche

[Matteo]

I agree that game shops are ripping us off selling second hand games 2 pounds cheaper than new ones,

but other than buying the few games I want and keeping them (Vanquish, Bayonetta, Resident evil, etc..) I am tempted by cheap second hand games when they are less than a tenner.

[Padlocked]

Chances are, though, that they'll hit a tenner as discounted brand new titles before they do 2nd hand.

My purchase habits have changed dramatically in the past 2 years, following that mental Christmas season that saw every major release on a 1/2 price sale in the new year (Mirror's Edge, Fable 2, Fallout 3 etc). That's not a trend that's stopped, and I now continue to buy the 2 or 3 full price releases I get each year but instead of topping it up with 2nd hand, scratched, faulty goods I buy cheap brand new stuff. It's great!

Most major releases from the first half of this year have been available at half price within 6 months, and those from January/February can now be got for less than £10. The second hand market (ignoring eBay) is predominantly a bricks and mortar operation - online channels aren't really doing much with it. This means that the traditional stores are now under attack on two fronts - online retailers who want to get rid, and do so through ludicrous discounting, and the publishers who are sick of their 2nd hand market operations.

Whizzing through my wish list, I can see:

Splinter Cell Conviction - £15

Alan Wake - £15

Alpha Protocol - £15

PoP: Forgotten Sands - £10

Crackdown 2 - £15

Just Cause 2 - £15 (on Zavvi recently)

The Saboteur - £15

Darksiders - £13 (though was £7 on Play recently)

FF XIII - £13

Bioshock 2 - £10

etc

etc

Most, or all, of these titles cost more than that second hand in the usual suspect's stores. Why would I bother? Equally, when they're so cheap to buy and the trade-in would be £3-4 each, I'm not arsed about chopping them in either, so I feel no rush to keep going back every weekend.

In the meantime, Gamestation keeps having to think up new and innovative ways to stack its shelves to cope with the unending pressure of metric tonnes of used games they can't shift but refuse to discount.

[Timmo]

Everyone keeps coming up with the episodic content argument - the problem with that is things are usually tweaked and changed right up until release. Or another way of putting it, in a two-year cycle one year doesn't mean half the game is complete. And even if they tighten up gameplay for the second half the damage may have already been done. And I don't know about everyone else, but whilst I do finish a fair number of games I play, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't get the second episode of a large chunk of them after the first. It'd have to be pretty special for me not to move onto something else instead. In episodic games so far, what percentage of those who buy the first episode go on to buy the second?

[sandman]

Chances are, though, that they'll hit a tenner as discounted brand new titles before they do 2nd hand.

My purchase habits have changed dramatically in the past 2 years, following that mental Christmas season that saw every major release on a 1/2 price sale in the new year (Mirror's Edge, Fable 2, Fallout 3 etc). That's not a trend that's stopped, and I now continue to buy the 2 or 3 full price releases I get each year but instead of topping it up with 2nd hand, scratched, faulty goods I buy cheap brand new stuff. It's great!

Most major releases from the first half of this year have been available at half price within 6 months, and those from January/February can now be got for less than £10. The second hand market (ignoring eBay) is predominantly a bricks and mortar operation - online channels aren't really doing much with it. This means that the traditional stores are now under attack on two fronts - online retailers who want to get rid, and do so through ludicrous discounting, and the publishers who are sick of their 2nd hand market operations.

Whizzing through my wish list, I can see:

Splinter Cell Conviction - £15

Alan Wake - £15

Alpha Protocol - £15

PoP: Forgotten Sands - £10

Crackdown 2 - £15

Just Cause 2 - £15 (on Zavvi recently)

The Saboteur - £15

Darksiders - £13 (though was £7 on Play recently)

FF XIII - £13

Bioshock 2 - £10

etc

etc

Most, or all, of these titles cost more than that second hand in the usual suspect's stores. Why would I bother? Equally, when they're so cheap to buy and the trade-in would be £3-4 each, I'm not arsed about chopping them in either, so I feel no rush to keep going back every weekend.

In the meantime, Gamestation keeps having to think up new and innovative ways to stack its shelves to cope with the unending pressure of metric tonnes of used games they can't shift but refuse to discount.

While I dont think that things are quite as rosy with internet prices as they were 2 years (it seems to take longer for a price to drop now, both online and instore), things are still pretty daft. Try picking up a copy of Dragon Age Awakenings instore and see what it'll cost you. About £25 is my guess, yet its a tenner online. And this is the same for many "older" games (ie those that are over 4 months old) where the shops seem increasingly reluctant to reduce the price to a sensible level (say, £20 for Alan Wake (new) for example)

[SeanR]

Rod Cousens, you cock.

facepalm.gif

[Unofficial Who]

Shelf life? Now they see the value in that? Finally...

I used to be a big buyer of second hand games as sometimes it was the only way to pick up games that you might have missed if you didn't pick it up in the first two weeks of release.

Now I tend to pick up new due to

-Steam and it's sales. Heck, even the prices new on Steam on some titles are great.

-PSP titles, Sony's new platnium pricepoint is incredibly cheap.

-The odd DS game as I get a lot out of them when travelling.

I think things are looking up for publishers in terms of the market, especially now they are starting to realise that consumers will buy games months or years after their release if you give them a way to do so.

For instance I'm sure you could find a pirate copy of a lot of the games on Steam or GoG's, especially the really old stuff. But people are buying rather than pirating. (Or at least enough of us are buying to make it viable.)

[NeoGeo]

Finally, if the stores all ditched preowned, then the sales of new would increase, the price of games could become much more realistic, and the industry would grow much more. It seems that buying preowned to save money prevents any movement on the price of new, so the whole thing is totally self defeating.

Sales might go up a little however a lot of people buy preowned because they can't afford new. I can't remember the last brand new game I bought. Without preowned I simply wouldn't buy many games. Regarding your next point; before the preowned market became so popular with stores games weren't priced more realistically. People have been calling for cheaper games for decades. It's hard to feel sympathy for an industry crying poverty when you see the turnover involved. If you can't make money on that then there is something fundamentally wrong and it isn't preowned games.*

*Based solely on guesswork and gut feeling although that might be the late supper I had.

[Karzee]

Eurogamer have a 15 min vid up today discussing this with various heads of the business including Braben, Codemasters and HMV:

http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/eurogamer-asks-are-second-hand-games-killing-the-industry

[b00dles]

That guy from Codemasters comes across as a right bellend in that video.

[Unofficial Who]

I can't believe that the softco's ignore the example set by authors and musicians who've had to deal with this forever!

Get a following. Be nice to the people who buy your stuff.

Look at rock bands. They get a following. Build up a community. Sometimes they give out freebies. They have communities where they might give out free tracks or whatever. Sure, people will still pirate your stuff if they're skint or just pirate inclined. But skint people aren't skint forever. How many of us pirated like hell when we were kids and how many of us spend way way too much now that we're employed?

But no, game companies still go around wanting to sit in your bedroom and check your reciept before you start the game up. If bands acted like some music companies they'd be asking the government to mandate surgically removing everyone's voice boxes to avoid the widespread unlicensed use of their intellectual properties at the pub.

[SweatyTravolta]

The problem when people compare to other industries is that developers only have one shot at the money.

Musicians get albums, radio and live performances. Likewise film makers get cinema, dvd and then television. Not to mention that it's becoming harder and harder to buy new games at retail as stores dedicate six times as much space in store to pre-owned. HMV certainly isn't like that regarding DVDs or albums, it seems something unique to games that the dedicated mainstream stores are the ones wanting to choke the life out of the industry.

If you're going to buy pre-owned you may as well just pirate the fucking thing for all the good it does the industry.

[Halo]

The problem when people compare to other industries is that developers only have one shot at the money.

Musicians get albums, radio and live performances. Likewise film makers get cinema, dvd and then television.

What do authors get?

[mayor_mike_haggar]

If games companies don't want people to buy preowned maybe they shouldn't charge £5 for ingame costumes CAPCOM.

[SweatyTravolta]

What do authors get?

Pussy on tap when they won't stop going on about how they're published authors? Bragging how you animated Kratos' grimace doesn't exactly make the girls drip.

If games companies don't want people to buy preowned maybe they shouldn't charge £5 for ingame costumes CAPCOM.

Well they need to get money to fund the games somehow. If they're not getting it from people pirating buying pre-owned then they'll get it elsewhere.

[Raff]

Developers and publishers losing out aside, The soul-crushing brick retail experience (How do employees of Game sleep at night after a day listening to their instore radio station?) and absurd prices of used high street stuff beggars belief. Sealed, dirt cheap back catalog games from the ever-growing line-up of cheap online retailers (not just in the channel islands) destroy my interest in used games.

Brick retail never took back catalog games seriously, and it always infuriated me. Just another reason to enjoy watching them slowley die.

[McCoy]

I don't have too much sympathy for the publishers. They have a perfectly valid way of selling their products which will eliminate the pre-owned market overnight and probably increase their margins. Put every new release on Live/PSN on release date for £24.99. Instantly you'll have pretty much capped the second hand industry at it's knees and cut out the margins that the retailers and distributors demand. I guess the reason they don't do this is fear or retaliation from retailers but if it was a industry wide led change then retail wouldn't have much choice. Effectively what is needed is an Itunes like service for Games which has already happened with PC games with Steam and it's perfectly possible to do it with console releases through the existing digital structure available on 36- and PS3.

At the end of the day, digital distribution will mean the end of second hand sales and it's completely up to the publishers when they want to seriously pursue this route.

[Harsin]

Every retailer under the sun getting into the pre-owned sector is only happening because there exists a market that will support it in the first place. Seems a substantial amount of people don't think forty bones for eight hours of entertainment (or four in the case of some recent offenders) that they'll never touch again is a particularly appealing value proposition. The games industry needs to ask why so many people want to get rid of their goods a week or two down the line and address that instead of wringing their hands about the evil customers buying used goods whilst simultaneously giving the likes of Game desirable exclusive editions (see the Bulletstorm thread for the latest example).

[dumpster]

This threads back again? Wow, that's enduring!

I'm amazed and disappointed by the Mass Effect 2 pricepoint on that video. £48 for a download is just taking the piss. The greed of the publishers seems to be as bad as that of the retailers, so you know what? Fuck 'em.

Remember that any product is priced at what the market will bear. Manufacturing cost does not come into it. Video games sell for £40 because that's how much people will pay. Megadrive games cost £40, 20 years ago. Xbox 360 launch games were all £50 but that didn't last long. The market wont bear prices over £40 as standard. But downloading games at £10 - £20 each would wipe out the need for preowned, and the developers and publishers would make the same money because they cut out the manufacture, shipping and the retailers.

So why is that not happening?

The retailers use preowned to make more money, and the margin is higher on preowned than new.

The developers have a real opportunity to cut the greedy retailers out of he equation by offering their product as a direct download for a fraction of the price, cutting out the need for preowned. But they use the opportunity presented to increase the price. Idiots.

Bollocks to it all. I'm sticking to my Iphone, and its 59p games, and I'll buy my console games new, when the prices drop - which on recent examples has been about 2 months after the launch at the latest!!!

(Quickie example - Need for Speed Hot Pursuit. Like the look of that, definitely want to buy it. It was £25 in Sainsburys before Xmas, and I missed out on that offer but I don't worry, because it will come back soon. Sure enough, today I saw it's £29.99 in Game's sale. A month from now it will be £19.99 everywhere, I guarantee it. So the online codes it needs are redundant because when I eventually buy it, it will be £20 brand new anyway).

[DjSatansfur3h]

Developers and publishers losing out aside, The soul-crushing brick retail experience (How do employees of Game sleep at night after a day listening to their instore radio station?) and absurd prices of used high street stuff beggars belief. Sealed, dirt cheap back catalog games from the ever-growing line-up of cheap online retailers (not just in the channel islands) destroy my interest in used games.

Brick retail never took back catalog games seriously, and it always infuriated me. Just another reason to enjoy watching them slowley die.

We dont fucking sleep. Sorry, past-tense, dont work at GAME anymore. But honestly, turning off that shovel of wank was the best thing ever. Lucy can stick a whole pre-owned browser up her clunge, with all her celebrity goss and yummy mummy bullshit.

[MK-1601]

Eurogamer have a 15 min vid up today discussing this with various heads of the business including Braben, Codemasters and HMV:

http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/eurogamer-asks-are-second-hand-games-killing-the-industry

I know Eurogamer commenters are not exactly MENSA material, but it's just facepalm after facepalm on that page.

The retail reps come off terribly, the usual entitled nonsense. Perhaps if CEX stores weren't so totally unpleasant to shop in they'd get more business.

At least Braben (I think, watched it the other night) manages to explain the simple, obvious point that RRPs for games are so high *because* they have to compensate for one wholesale sale translating into 5-6 preowned sales for the retailer. It's a completely artificial situation.

Seems a substantial amount of people don't think forty bones for eight hours of entertainment (or four in the case of some recent offenders) that they'll never touch again is a particularly appealing value proposition. The games industry needs to ask why so many people want to get rid of their goods a week or two down the line-

Because retail are actively conning them into thinking it's normal. GAME's entire window display is begging people to trade in their tat at the moment. It's so pathetic.

[Unofficial Who]

The problem when people compare to other industries is that developers only have one shot at the money.

Musicians get albums, radio and live performances. Likewise film makers get cinema, dvd and then television. Not to mention that it's becoming harder and harder to buy new games at retail as stores dedicate six times as much space in store to pre-owned. HMV certainly isn't like that regarding DVDs or albums, it seems something unique to games that the dedicated mainstream stores are the ones wanting to choke the life out of the industry.

If you're going to buy pre-owned you may as well just pirate the fucking thing for all the good it does the industry.

Developers get Steam and other download services now. Seriously.

You know why I used to buy pre-owned all the bloody time? Because sometimes I didn't have the money to buy the game when it was out on the shelves for all of three weeks. It's why a lot of people turn to piracy as well. Unavailability. Why did a whole of of us buy the Sega Megadrive Pack 4 on Steam when five minutes could get you Gens and the 10 games included for free? Because it was available.

Honestly, the games industry seems to love burning it's past and then complains when people sift through the ashes.

If you want to stop pre-owned then you need to look at the reasons for pre-owned existing.

[Plissken]

The retailers use preowned to make more money, and the margin is higher on preowned than new.

With some of the offers the retailers are pushing, I'm not entirely sure that is true.

I traded in CODBLOPS at GameStop for €43.75 against TDU2 (€49.99). Given the retail of CODBLOPS is €49.99, I'm not entirely sure anyone is making money on either of those two games.

(Hell, COBLOPS was a trade-in on Fallout:New Vegas, which I bought full price €39.99. Paid €15 for CODBLOPS, so the total is FO:NV, CODBLOPS and TDU2 for a grand total of €61.25. I don't see where the profit is.)

[Don Wiskerando]

With some of the offers the retailers are pushing, I'm not entirely sure that is true.

I traded in CODBLOPS at GameStop for €43.75 against TDU2 (€49.99). Given the retail of CODBLOPS is €49.99, I'm not entirely sure anyone is making money on either of those two games.

(Hell, COBLOPS was a trade-in on Fallout:New Vegas, which I bought full price €39.99. Paid €15 for CODBLOPS, so the total is FO:NV, CODBLOPS and TDU2 for a grand total of . I don't see where the profit is.)

Actually, you've paid €61.25 for TDU2 because that's all you've got to show for your money other than some achievements.

And Gamestop are making the money when 6 other people buy that same copy of CODBLOPS over and over again.

[Strangelite]

I seriously think the future of games distribution is online, it's only a matter of time before broadband (and whatever its successor is going to be called in 20 years) supplies everything, where everything, and I do mean, everything, will be downloadable purchase only. Good bye retails, we never actually needed you all along.. Piracy? Destroyed, Pre-owned, none existent.

Consoles will just be a net-gear router with a hard drive in 10 years time. Anyone who can't see it is blind...

Sounds like a good thing though doesn't it? I'm not so sure...

Think how many times you've bought a music album and thought "yeah, track 1 is good, but everything else is garbage" - in this case, the customer, I think, has the RIGHT to sell that shit and get their money partly re-couped. And rightly, the artist shouldn't get any money from that, and eventually they should be choked to death by constantly releasing shite. Darwins theory of evolution, survival of the fittest..

With online only distribution, that becomes no longer an option. Eventually publishers (who are all crooks anyway, and hopefully they'll die a shitty death soon too) will notice the "indie trend" of making games cheaper and selling online only. With services like Steam, and an online downloadable world only, they'll be able to shovel out a load more shit without you having any inclination of knowing you're buying a turkey apart from a few reviews. (Black ops is a good example, reviewed well, but it feels soulless to me) - or games you've finished, and you won't be able to "sell them back" - (Although maybe THAT's the answer, subscription models FTW! (I'm being largely sarcastic))

And people will spout on about "but the reviewers will protect us!, They'll warn us if Call of Duty 91 is shite", And to you, I say, WAKE UP. Look at the review situation now, there are veto’s on big websites reviewing a product until it's released, where 90% of the suckers in the shops queuing up aren't aware they are about to buy a turkey... And the publishers have these websites over a barrel "break our agreement and no more cocaine for you!" - in the digital distribution era, it'll be ten times worse...because it'll be happening on the flick of a switch.

I suspect this joyous turn of events will happen when three things happen...

1. The distribution technology gets there (we're very close, but not there yet)

2. A big name releases it's next console without a disk drive. (My suspicions that this will be Apple or Microsoft)

3. The first publisher/developer to say "this isn't going to be a retail disk" on a AAA game... Probably an internal Microsoft or Apple studio....

But it's all pretty much moot in the UK because by then all the UK developers will be back in their bedrooms with their mums bringing them brews...

[Dudley]

At least Braben (I think, watched it the other night) manages to explain the simple, obvious point that RRPs for games are so high *because* they have to compensate for one wholesale sale translating into 5-6 preowned sales for the retailer. It's a completely artificial situation.

Yep, which is why SNES games were so cheap before we really had preownOH WAIT A MINUTE.

[Sidewaysbob]

Won't the PSP2 be the first big test of this brave new world. With no optical drive it has to be all download, we shall see what the future has in store for us via PSN.