Preowned - It's Killing The Industry!!!

[whohe]

The only reason that a second hand market is even entertained is because the games are too much to begin with, surely? why would game, CEX and gamestation, amongst others, even offer such a service if they didn't think that there were people out there willing to buy them in the first place?

So basically, if it's killing the industry, it's the industry's fault in the first place for pricing their games in such a way that it means that a certain percentage of games consumers would rather wait a few weeks to pick up someone else's cheaper version of the same.

In my opinion, obviously.

IF

[The Liberal Elite]

IF

Well observed! I never said it definitely was!

[whohe]

Well observed!  I never said it definitely was!

Then hopefully you'll agree with me that this is a completely pointless discussion until someone, anyone, can actually come up with some hard facts proving two things -

Firstly, that the industry is being killed - because personally, I can't see any evidence for that whatsoever; and

Secondly, that IF the industry is being killed, there is any correlation whatsoever between that "fact" and the existence of a second-hand market.

[Hitcher]

Agreed whohe.

If it was the case then something would be done about it I'm sure of that and the fact that it's not points to the statement being nothing but speculation.

[smac]

"Surely if Game were forced to pay a percentage of each second hand game sold, back to the original publisher, there would be no problems."

That would be a logistical nightmare surely, and what would the independants do? Who would monitor this?

Not impossible, 'though.

You have a similar situation with the PRS acting as a central distribution point for royalties collected for public performance of music. Avoids retailers having to deal with individual publishers and artists.

But we're talking entirely different economies of scale between games and just about every other industry mentioned here. The number of units shifted, the number of potential consumers, the potential lifespan of the product and the limited availability of the means to use the products mark the games market as very different.

Maybe that's why second-hand sits alongside retail, because it works for this short-term, low-volume, high-price original retail model we have somehow arrived at. It may not be the best way forward for a viable games business, but inertia'll mean it's the only one we have for a while.

And the publishers seem happy enough making money from gaming in a ghetto; after all, there'll be another developer along in a minute to replace the one that just went bang, won't there? . . .

[The Liberal Elite]

Firstly, that the industry is being killed - because personally, I can't see any evidence for that whatsoever; and

Secondly, that IF the industry is being killed, there is any correlation whatsoever between that "fact" and the existence of a second-hand market.

Of course there isn't. The problems with games companies run far deeper than a few people getting their game a bit cheaper elsewhere. There's probably more chance of proving a correlation between piss poor management and a glut of genre games flooding the market to the closure of many development houses than there is of a second hand market.

[Rygal - Reader of Threads]

Is it wrong for someone to find the new Pet Shop Boys tune catchy?

[The Liberal Elite]

Is it wrong for someone to find the new Pet Shop Boys tune catchy?

It's a sin.

[Rygal - Reader of Threads]

[Hitcher]

Is it wrong for someone to find the new Pet Shop Boys tune catchy?

I hope not.

[sandman]

I agree that the 2nd hand games market exists because games are too expensive. DVDs and CDs have a much smaller 2nd market because they are CHEAPER TO BUY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Of course, why cheaper games would significantly reduce the 2nd hand game market, the real question is would the number of games purchased increase. I, unlike others here, believe they would, but I'm not sure if a 50% reduction in price would result in a 100% sales increase. Do Budget games like Underworld make a significant dent on the games charts?

I don't think that the 2nd hand games market is killing the developers, the increased cost of cost development and flooded market have done that. I buy a fuck of a lot of games ( 50 a year ), yet I have only bought a very small percentage of what is available in my local game. Less product ( particularly less crap product ) is needed.

[Dimahoo]

I'd suspect most people would buy more games, myself included, but its a rather speculative comment.

I have no proof, apart from me, being an avid gamer.

But the majority of people (the mainstream) are not avid gamers so its hard to say.

Anyway, i dunno why dumpster is moaning.

The indsutry seems to be going the way of downloadable content only, so, assuming this works (that is downloading via the nextgen consoles), then shops could be hit quite hard.

[Jammy]

Speaking personally, I do buy a lot of games second-hand at the moment, for two aposite reasons :-

1) Mediocre game with content that I'm a fan of (Jedi Academy as an example).

2) Great game in a genre that I'm not a particular fan of (Soul Calibur II as an example).

I'm more likely to chance a CD because if I buy it online and don't like it, I've only lost a tenner. Same for a DVD - I pay £15 tops for it online, which is the same as me and the wife going to the flicks to see a film. I can always trade it in afterwards if I think it's rubbish.

As was the argument when Stuart was running the Fairplay campaign, a pricepoint that is more in line with DVDs would entice me into taking more of a chance.

[hungry joe]

I've got here a bit late but I'd just like to point out that a) Rocky can't be that bloody marvellous if 7 people returned the copy they bought to the shop and B) how many of those people that bought it at a cheaper price wouldn't have bought at full?

[lancashirebambaata]

Is there any evidence to show that the 2nd hand market is smaller for cheaper games?

Is Pillage less likely to be traded than FFX-2? If so why?

Just being Devil's Advocate.

because pillage was cheap in the first place you'd get a lot less for it compared to what you'd get when trading in FF-X, so most people would be less inclined to get rid if it.

[gwh]

Do Budget games like Underworld make a significant dent on the games charts?

No, because:

A ) They're hidden at the back of a shop, more often than not.

B ) You get what you pay for. Unless it's a re-release, you'd be hard-pressed to find an AAA budget game.

[Unofficial Who]

No, because:

A ) They're hidden at the back of a shop, more often than not.

B ) You get what you pay for. Unless it's a re-release, you'd be hard-pressed to find an AAA budget game.

Rubbish. There are plenty of great budget games around.

Weren't you lot all jumping up and down about Flipnic?

[Freedan]

Yeah, i'm a fan of budget games, there ain't a load of AAA titles to be found granted, but there are plenty that are just fun.

[footle]

Lower retail prices reduce the 2nd hand market because the trade in value becomes too small for people to bother with.

e.g. For a CD £10 New price

£6 2nd hand price

£2-3 trade in value

That makes it hardly worth the effort of trading it in.

If the "industry" is genuinely worried about 2nd hand sales, reducing the retail price for new games is the only way to reduce the "problem".

Nail on head.

Game make £10 profit (ok - so I'm disregarding all overheads etc.) on a £25 second hand game, rather than a much smaller one (potentially) on a new game retailing at the same price.

So what's in it for them to lower new game prices?

[multi]

When it comes to CD's, I buy new releases I want when they come out. If I want an older release (maybe something I once had on vinyl) I'll visit a second hand store to see if its there. If its not, it might be next time. So I'll not buy it new.

Same principal applies to my games buying.

So, the developers woudn't have got any of my lemon dash there. But say, for example, I buy Advance Wars second hand and find its a fantastic game, I'm going to want AW2 when it comes out.

Everyones smiling then.

[therealjohnpeat]

Whatever the potential harmful effects of 'pre-owned games', no-one could seriously want a law which forbids the resale of goods you've bought-and-paid-for and which you no longer want surely - irregardless of what those goods are!?

There is, of course, an insidious 'middle ground' here - where instead of buying a game outright, you buy the right-to-play it for a period of time only.

Whether this is a 'right to play', 'rental' or 'episodic' payment system I really do believe (and have done for some years now) that the games industry will go that way eventually - the idea of 'owning' a game in it's entirity will come to an end.

I'm slightly surprised it's not happened already really - none of the console makers have monied-up for the tech (yet) and PCs are too 'open' to prevent mass piracy I suppose - but it still seems a more sensible route as 'whole' games get more and more expensive to develop.

In an ideal world, such a system would enable you to try out a game quite cheaply and pay only for the 'value' you get from it (the longer you play - the more you pay - upto a limit of course).

Developers could also build part of a game - release it and gauge popularity and choose whether to 'expand' the game based on the money taken - in an ideal world...

Sadly, this isn't an ideal world and it's reasonable to assume that the industry wouldn't want such an 'level playing field' - it would destroy the 'hit driven market' which the 'hit owners' love so much - and they own the industry so....!!

Meanwhile I will buy cheap and sell-on - usually at a difference of on-or-around the cost of a 2-day-rental from Blockbuster - and if I'm "harming the industry" - that's their problem, not mine - so let's not worry too much eh?

Sale Figures? The only one that matters is the '1' which represents my buying it - nothing else matters. Well, perhaps the '1' which is the guy who will help me when I get stuck

JP

[dumpster]

It's me again, original poster....

I just bought Silent Scope Complete.

I loved it on DC, and liked the sequels on PS2, but never bought those sequels because they were good, but not THAT good. Certainly not work £40.

Anyway I was on my way to work and popped into HMV and would you believe it, they have it on the shelf, brand new at £24.99.

A quick wander into Gamestation confirms their usual £1 cheaper policy, so I buy it for £23.99.

I really like Silent Scope, but theres no way I'd pay £40 for it.

However, I would have ended up owning it eventually because I would keep an eye out for it second hand, and with Silent Scope being the arcade experience, even with 4 games on the CD, you can finish it in an evening so it sould turn up preowned soon.

So the very fact that Silent Scope was released at £23.99, has completely negated the need for a preowned copy. Also at that price, I didn't feel the need to trade in anything to afford it.

The result is that the entire industry benefited from my purchase, whereas, if the game was released at £40, no-one but the retailer would have benefitted becuase I would wait for a preowned copy.

Do you see?

[The Liberal Elite]

Are you stuart Campbell?

[Sng]

People ending posts with "Do you see?" forces me to forget what they said in the first place.

[Dimahoo]

Dumpster..,

We've already gone over the cheaper games policy.

You complain that preowned is killing the industry, yet know that the industry won't back down on prices.

So tough. I'll buy preowned and continue too unless a title is worthy of credit (and which i admire retailers like Play.com and companies like Midas and the people who released Flipnic).

But it won't make no difference to the industry.

People will always play games, like they always read books, listen to the Radio, TV, and go to the movies.

[whohe]

The result is that the entire industry benefited from my purchase, whereas, if the game was released at £40, no-one but the retailer would have benefitted becuase I would wait for a preowned copy.

Do you see?

What complete bollocks.

Understand one thing - the entire population of the planet does not think and act in the same way that you do.

If we are to believe what Campbell says - "And what’s more, with two new-to-him games to play instead of one, it’s probably going to be twice as long before he comes back again" - if you half the price of games, then "the industry" (that "industry" that everyone seems so concerned about) suddenly halves the amount of money it takes overnight.

Maybe, just maybe, if the game was released at £40, the amount of cash going to "the industry" would be greater than that if it were released at £23.

But at the end of the day, as numerous people have pointed out in this thread - no-one owes developers and publishers a living. If they can't make and market games that people want to buy, why the fuck should we worry about them?

It's time to grow up and recognise that the market for games is not making innovative and appealing games for people like yourself and selling them for peanuts. The market for games is all about making generic re-hashes of last year's best sellers that will sell in the hundreds of thousands at £40 a pop. Whine and moan about it as much as you want, but that's the hard fact of the matter - and nothing you say on an internet forum will change it.

[Gique]

dont most console manufacturers still use the "sell your console at a loss, recoup on the software" principle?

[Mayfair Rick]

Understand one thing - the entire population of the planet does not think and act in the same way that you do.

But they do think and act in the same way as they do in this Stuart Campbell column? That's an interesting assertion.

[whohe]

But they do think and act in the same way as they do in this Stuart Campbell column? That's an interesting assertion.

Campbell is about as disconnected from the general public as could be possible. That much is certain.

[jonathanhoey]

So I've just read the original post pretty much word-for-word in the latest copy of EDGE. Have things really not improved at all in three years?