Preowned - It's Killing The Industry!!!

[Meh]

We can't have a wider adoption of online delivery because of the reason I've stated. If you seriously think games are going to get smaller and smaller, then you're quite maaaaad. You'll always get small, cute little indie games kicking around - and that's a good thing - but there's been nothing to suggest that file sizes are ever going to get smaller (though some mega-super compression super-thingy would be wicked-awesome).

[therealjohnpeat]

We can't have a wider adoption of online delivery because of the reason I've stated.

To continue to assume that because some people lack fast broadband (and there are VERY few people who can't get at least 1-2mbps - even mobile offers that) this won't become a more popular way to distribute games is blinkered to say the least.

Games came on DVD when people still only had CDs and so on and so on - progress doesn't wait for everyone.

Retail doesn't help gaming as much as it should considering it takes around 50% of the money for itself - and there have been no new players in the market for eons which is as sure a sign I know of that people see it has no future.

Do you really think the stores on PSN, XBL, DSi etc. are going to remain smaller/cheaper games only forever?

Do you really think MS will continue to allow retailers to take a lions share of games RRP?

The game-in-a-box which you 'own' - to resell as you see fit - is dying - it's only a matter of time. May be 3-4 years - may be 10 - but it is dying.

[Meh]

Oh, certainly in ten years there'll definitely be a shift in that direction - but not until then. Sales of games-in-boxes certainly aren't dying, either.

[snowbind]

Maybe we need to change the way we look at how games will be available online. Rather than downloading the whole thing, what if you just needed to download the engine and core components. Then the rest could download in the background as you played through the levels. Surely online downloadsing and the potentials are limited at the moment because we are assuming we would just be downloading a digital DVD/Blu ray. Oblivously this paradigm exists now because retail copies have priority. Personally I prefer boxed copies and arguably it provides the lowest bar of entry, which equals the largest market possible.

[AlwaysBeClosing]

We can't have a wider adoption of online delivery because of the reason I've stated. If you seriously think games are going to get smaller and smaller, then you're quite maaaaad. You'll always get small, cute little indie games kicking around - and that's a good thing - but there's been nothing to suggest that file sizes are ever going to get smaller (though some mega-super compression super-thingy would be wicked-awesome).

They don't appear to be getting that big either. Pre-owned is essential for console and handheld gaming, though they've worked it out for PCs due to the large quantity of MMOGs that wouldn't be sensible to have discs for every time you wanted to play it.

[Meh]

PC games are bloody huge a lot of the time, though.

[Super Craig]

To continue to assume that because some people lack fast broadband (and there are VERY few people who can't get at least 1-2mbps - even mobile offers that) this won't become a more popular way to distribute games is blinkered to say the least.

Games came on DVD when people still only had CDs and so on and so on - progress doesn't wait for everyone.

Retail doesn't help gaming as much as it should considering it takes around 50% of the money for itself - and there have been no new players in the market for eons which is as sure a sign I know of that people see it has no future.

Do you really think the stores on PSN, XBL, DSi etc. are going to remain smaller/cheaper games only forever?

Do you really think MS will continue to allow retailers to take a lions share of games RRP?

The game-in-a-box which you 'own' - to resell as you see fit - is dying - it's only a matter of time. May be 3-4 years - may be 10 - but it is dying.

Not quite. Over here, you'd get DVD and CD editions of games. In the US, they stuck to CDs for ages.

[FuzzyDunlop]

and there have been no new players in the market for eons which is as sure a sign I know of that people see it has no future.

There have been no new players in the supermarket sector, dominated primarily by Morrison's, Sainsbury's, Tesco and Asda. Procter and Gamble and Unilever dominate the cleaning goods and detergents markets.

It doesn't particularly suggest they have no future, just that they're far too powerful for small time businesses to go up against. It's not beneficial at all for the consumer, that's pretty obvious especially considering GAME, like HMV, controls an ungodly amount of its market, but I can't see how their future is in jeopardy.

What I'd argue is 'killing the industry' (ugh) is not pre-owned titles, but, to an extent, the mass market. The games that appear in pre-owned are those that people buy in droves on release day or over Christmas - Call of Duty, FIFA, PES, other yearly updates, etc. For all GAME care there's not enough incentive to sell niche titles or ones that aren't guaranteed best-sellers, which leaves the internet and expensive indies to compensate.

Not many people like wandering into dodgy, cramped looking stores down back alleys, or going anywhere that doesn't have a nice fancy sign outside and a nice space to browse inside. And there are still people who don't like using the net. So GAME still wins and all the publishers that don't have triple A titles or cash cows to offset the cost of developing original IP lose out.

tl;dr - high street retailers' restricting of the market to major chart titles is more detrimental to the industry, and to consumers, than recycling unwanted games.

[Mr Cochese]

Modern Warfare 2 is killing the industry, because people are playing that instead of buying other games, bathing, eating et cetera.

[therealjohnpeat]

There have been no new players in the supermarket sector, dominated primarily by Morrison's, Sainsbury's, Tesco and Asda. Procter and Gamble and Unilever dominate the cleaning goods and detergents markets.

Not quite the same thing tho - UK high street specialist game retail has been down to GAME, Blockbuster (contracting rapidly since selling up Gamestation to GAME), Zavvi (gone), HMV and a few smaller indie chains.

Supermarkets cherry pick/sell the top 40 ofc. - as do electrical retailers like DSG - but there's easily room for another chain.

I understand Gamestop may be visiting our shores soon - but until they do there's really only 1 games-specific national and that's GAME/Gamestation - so there's clearly room for some competiition.

The absence of that - for many years now - suggests no-one thinks it's really worthwhile - meanwhile online stores multiply with the hour and download services are popping up here, there and everywhere!!

[sonic_shuffle]

I buy most of my games from CEX, second hand. I can trade in any electronic tat I have and leave with a game.

I would buy new if they weren't so expensive.

[AlwaysBeClosing]

PC games are bloody huge a lot of the time, though.

I suppose that's why they release the game on disc in the first place, although the size of the updates on WoW are tremendous.

[therealjohnpeat]

I suppose that's why they release the game on disc in the first place, although the size of the updates on WoW are tremendous.

MMOs expect their players to be able to deal with horrendously large downloads - often you have no other choice.

Even when they release a game/expansion on a disc, the odds are there will be anything from 250mb to 1Gb+ of patches required before it will work (even at launch!!)

When they did a free w/e for Champions Online, the Steam download (800mb) was quick but the patches from Cryptic (1.6Gb!!!!!!) took 2 days...

LOTRO is even worse - if you were to pick it up today with all it's expansions and download it all it must exceed 15Gb - the last time I did it, it was 12Gb and they've added 2 expansions since then!!!! AOC is also well over 10Gb there days I reckon.

Only Guild Wars remains slightly more sensible in that it installs a core game and then only downloads levels/areas as you visit them - more games should be like that but then people moan about 'loading screens' and the lack of an open/endless world...

[The Liberal Elite]

MMOs expect their players to be able to deal with horrendously large downloads - often you have no other choice.

Even when they release a game/expansion on a disc, the odds are there will be anything from 250mb to 1Gb+ of patches required before it will work (even at launch!!)

LOTRO is even worse - if you were to pick it up today with all it's expansions and download it all it must exceed 15Gb - the last time I did it, it was 12Gb and they've added 2 expansions since then!!!!

Only Guild Wars remains slightly more sensible in that it installs a core game and then only downloads levels/areas as you visit them - more games should be like that but then people moan about 'loading screens' and the lack of an open/endless world...

I'm not quite sure how else you think that they should deal with this, though.

[AlwaysBeClosing]

His last paragraph explains an alternative. Surely adapting both would be ideal? Streaming it (of sorts) and downloading it in the background as you play (and as the computer is on) sounds fair.

[The Liberal Elite]

His last paragraph explains an alternative. Surely adapting both would be ideal? Streaming it (of sorts) and downloading it in the background as you play (and as the computer is on) sounds fair.

Wouldn't work with WoW. Imagine your group having to wait half an hour while you download the dungeon you're about to enter?

[therealjohnpeat]

Wouldn't work with WoW. Imagine your group having to wait half an hour while you download the dungeon you're about to enter?

In GW it doesn't take anything like that long (the bulk of the objects and textures are in the game package I suspect) - the longest I've waited is maybe 45 seconds for a zone to load/update?

It's not for every game, for sure tho

[The Liberal Elite]

In GW it doesn't take anything like that long (the bulk of the objects and textures are in the game package I suspect) - the longest I've waited is maybe 45 seconds for a zone to load/update?

It's not for every game, for sure tho

From the limited time I spent with GW, I can say that it's hardly the same thing at all.

[therealjohnpeat]

Wouldn't work with WoW. Imagine your group having to wait half an hour while you download the dungeon you're about to enter?

Another thought on this - it would be no worse than waiting for the people who are sat on their arse in town and not making their way to the summoning portal - or waiting for that healer to come back from having his tea because his Mum called him - or waiting for another Tank because the one you found has just dropped team without saying a word or defusing the argument between the 7 hunters who want to come or...

Seriously

[AlwaysBeClosing]

Glad I don't play WoW.

[mechamonkey]

Another thought on this - it would be no worse than waiting for the people who are sat on their arse in town and not making their way to the summoning portal - or waiting for that healer to come back from having his tea because his Mum called him - or waiting for another Tank because the one you found has just dropped team without saying a word or defusing the argument between the 7 hunters who want to come or...

Seriously

That doest happen any more. You click a looking for group button and the game builds you a group from everyone looking for group across realms. Takes seconds as some classes (Tanks/Healers) to a few minutes as a damage dealer. Oh and you're teleported to the instance too now.

[Mr Majestyk]

Bad Company 2 PC - £34.99 on Steam. On disk from play.com, it's £26.99.

As long as games are cheaper to buy on disk, you can shove your direct download.

[DjSatansfur3h]

Bad Company 2 PC - £34.99 on Steam. On disk from play.com, it's £26.99.

As long as games are cheaper to buy on disk, you can shove your direct download.

This is pretty much the problem with Direct Downloads. There is no "de-vauling" or "discounting" of products in general, so products end up staying full whack at premium. Makes no sense to me.

Have a look at the online EA store. Its bloody rediculous.

[ah]

This is pretty much the problem with Direct Downloads. There is no "de-vauling" or "discounting" of products in general, so products end up staying full whack at premium. Makes no sense to me.

Have a look at the online EA store. Its bloody rediculous.

have a look at the steam christmas sale thread for a counter-argument. i'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but i'd say there's certainly the beginnings of a discounting strategy for downloaded games.

[Smoothy]

I understand Gamestop may be visiting our shores soon - but until they do there's really only 1 games-specific national and that's GAME/Gamestation - so there's clearly room for some competiition.

It's here already

[Vimster]

have a look at the steam christmas sale thread for a counter-argument. i'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but i'd say there's certainly the beginnings of a discounting strategy for downloaded games.

Right, but there's a general downward trend for boxed copy prices that you don't really see on Steam or the like. Yes they have regular sales and offers, some of them really good, but it takes longer for the prices to drop. I tend to only buy games on Steam or Direct2Drive when they are heavily discounted, the idea of buying a full-price game for more than a boxed copy defeats the object. If the game downloaded in about 15 minutes and my ISP didn't throttle me then it may be worth the money as far as convenience goes, but we have a way to go yet.

[Halo]

Bad Company 2 PC - £34.99 on Steam. On disk from play.com, it's £26.99.

As long as games are cheaper to buy on disk, you can shove your direct download.

I've heard suggestions that some publishers have contracts in place to ensure that digital downloads are no cheaper than RRP. This would certainly make sense - I can imagine publishers and games shops are both scared shitless by digital downloads rendering them unnecessary.

[Superunknown]

and those people can continue to play older games on their older consoles whilst the rest of the world moves on.

The PC market is almost entirely online-distribution-based now - and PC games are noted for being large/bloated and not too download friendly so I'm sure consoles will have no difficulty with this at all.

Even if they do stick with discs, expect the idea of online capabilities/maps/DLC to grow to the extent that the original box/disc will probably contain the tutorial with everything else being bought online for use on 1 account/machine only.

I'm actually amazed this hasn't happened with the 360 yet in fact...

Your comments about the PC market might be true. But what percentage of sales are represented by PC games? The vast majority of multi-platform sales are on the PS3/360. The type of highly-technology-aware person who has a decent gaming rig is much more likely to have decent fast broadband and be more open to the idea of huge downloads. Mr Console Gamer wants to plug it into his telly and in most cases doesn't care about DX11 or Bump-Mapping. He's much more likely to have *an* internet connection, rather than a *good* internet connection.

[ah]

Right, but there's a general downward trend for boxed copy prices that you don't really see on Steam or the like. Yes they have regular sales and offers, some of them really good, but it takes longer for the prices to drop. I tend to only buy games on Steam or Direct2Drive when they are heavily discounted, the idea of buying a full-price game for more than a boxed copy defeats the object. If the game downloaded in about 15 minutes and my ISP didn't throttle me then it may be worth the money as far as convenience goes, but we have a way to go yet.

ok, that makes sense. i guess that actually fits with what i was saying i wanted the industry to look like a couple of pages back - i want fewer games to be released because i think the market is artificially enlarged by "pre-owned" purchases and regular price reductions. i'd rather have people buying fewer games but getting them all at RRP than have them buy loads of games for £14 each in the sainsbury's sale. i don't think the latter benefits developers and i therefore don't think it leads to better games being developed, which means i don't think it benefits players either.

so, basically, a sales strategy like that seen for downloaded games where the price remains high with the occasional crazy sale to spark interest again seems reasonable to me.

(i'm getting away from what you were originally saying now, of course - sorry bout that).

i don't like downloading games because i don't want to be tied to the provider in any way once i've paid for their product, and in most cases that's a requirement (with plenty of exceptions in the indie sector). but yeah, if the high street strategy mirrored the current download strategy then i'd be a pretty happy guy. plenty of people would grumble that they couldn't afford as many games, and several kids might have a lame six months when they get a rubbish game for christmas and can't afford another until their birthday in june, and i'd imagine that the development and publishing industry would shrink somewhat and stop churning out dark voids and fractures and lost planets. so there's definitely a downside or two (note: i'm not talking about the potential absence of shooters-with-a-twist from shop shelves). on the whole, though, that would be an industry model that could support itself without the need to agressively pursue second hand sellers and downloaders who never intended to buy anyway (at the expense of a good experience for actual customers), and the world would be a marginally better place as a result.

[dumpster]

You know, I saw this thread, and though - bloody hell, I started a thread on this subject 6years ago!!!

This is still a subject that interests me a great deal, and I'd like to just add a few bulletpoints, looking at how the industry has changed in the last 6 years.

The publishers really are realising that they don't need the stores. No-one's using dial up anymore, and consoles have Wifi built in, or as a fairly cheap addon. An Xbox or PS3 is a different world when you have a broadband connection. Publishers are able to offer their game directly over broadband, which benefits them because there are no distractions for the customer in their purchasing journey. I've personally spent more money on gaming on my Ipod from the Apps store than I could have imagined when I got the Ipod. It's so easy, and so cheap!!

Games are starting to come with serial numbers, downloadable content etc, all designed to make a new copy a better buy than a second hand one. This is because the games publishers have realised how many preowned copies are sold and they know they make no money on these sales.

Games are getting cheaper at the first point of sale. Quality titles seem to hold their launch price for a fraction of the time they used to. Is there anyone on this forum who managed to resist Bayonetta for £18 at Zavvi? Is there anyone out there thinking "I'll wait for a preowned copy"?

Game have announced the closure of a number of stores. I believe this is just the start.

Downloadable content just makes sense! I have bought and paid for Plants Versus Zombies 3 times now, the latest being the lovely Ipod version. Take out the retailers and publishers etc - it's one of the best games I have played and it cost £1.79.

To pick fault at the 6 year old post, it's worth noting that I was completely wrong with the topic title. Preowned isn't killing the industry - it's killing the retailers that sell it. Because the publishers have no interest in sending a potential customer into a Game store to buy their product when it's possible they will come out with a preowned copy instead. The retailers have been very short sighted in this, because they are now presented with this situation. A software publisher has no interest in whether you buy preowned, or pirate a copy instead - they make no money either way. A software company would benefit if you just walked into a store and stole a copy because then the shop has to order more stock.

The games retailers have created a situation where the manufacturers of the product would like to do everything they can to keep you away from the stores. This has lead to the Apple Apps Store, Steam etc, where you can download quality games for a couple of quid. I can see this continuing and games specialist retailers disappearing from the high street completely. Check this thread in another 6 years to see if it happened!