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Beyond Good & Evil - Last time before...


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Spritey, I know you're pulling my leg, but no game sets out to be shite, does it.

:unsure:

Many games set out to be exactly what they end up as being. Whether that's bland, realistic, basic, obscure, linear, aimless, or just frustrating and limited in some way. Doesn't make 'em beyond criticism though.

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How can you moan about the hand holding and lack of challenge in BG+E then claim POP is one of the best games of last year? Where's the challenge in POP? Apart from that fighting, and that's because it repetitive and frustrating more than anything else.

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How can you moan about the hand holding and lack of challenge in BG+E then claim POP is one of the best games of last year? Where's the challenge in POP? Apart from that fighting, and that's because it repetitive and frustrating more than anything else.

It's not so much a matter of 'difficulty', but rather one of dynamicism and experimentation.

Have I ever been stuck in PoP? Yes, plenty of times. Is it sasfying to 'work out' what to do and experiment with different ways of getting to the place you're trying to get to? Yes, very much so.

Have I ever been stuck in BG&E. Nope, not once. Aside from the exploring the world stuff (which is good, by the way) nothing else allows for experimentation.

No double standards here, fella. :unsure:

EDIT: Besides, I'm not complaining per se; I really like Beyond Good and Evil!

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Have I ever been stuck in BG&E. Nope, not once. Aside from the exploring the world stuff (which is good, by the way) nothing else allows for experimentation.

Rubbish. There were countless times when you had to find one of several ways through a room without the guards attacking, and you were able to experiment to find the way you could do it best. You could choose to either sneak through them, or creep up behind them and hit them, or hit them from a distance.

The floating robots - there were more than one way of getting past them as well, and there was more than one route to get to an objective quite a few times.

The story itself was rather linear, but your way of following it was relatively unconstrained.

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;)

Many games set out to be exactly what they end up as being. Whether that's bland, realistic, basic, obscure, linear, aimless, or just frustrating and limited in some way. Doesn't make 'em beyond criticism though.

No they don't. They don't set out to do most of those things. They might end up that way, but I'm sure it is never the intention of the designers to set out to make them that way.

Your list is completely muddled. A game doesn't set out to be frustrating and limited, although it might well set out to be realistic.

Anyway, my point re BG&E is specifically this: The makers didn't set out to make a challenging game, they set out to make quite an easy and accessible one. If you accept that, you can't then slate it for lacking in challenge.

It'd be like someone saying "I'm going to make the hardest shooter ever!" and someone saying "I don't like it, it's too hard".

Anyway, you like the bloody game so shut it you slaaaag! :o

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*ahem*

I know I'm late coming to this thread, but Beyond Good & Evil > Prince of Persia. Might have something to do with me disliking platformers.

That is all.

(Oh, and Davros: didn't stop people whinging about Ninja Gaiden's difficulty though did it? ;))

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Rubbish.  There were countless times when you had to find one of several ways through a room without the guards attacking, and you were able to experiment to find the way you could do it best.  You could choose to either sneak through them, or creep up behind them and hit them, or hit them from a distance.

But there's still no 'experimentation' really, is there? It's just all so bloody obvious that you have to do this then that then this, etc., etc.

Experimentation then...? Hmmm... you'd go into a room, see the guard patterns, decide to either attack them all or hide from them. Then you'd have one or two (at the most) ways to pass without being seen, or one or two ways to pass by attacking them, then you'd move onto another room and do it again! Whoop!

I just don't see it as having much room to explore what you can do and ways to do it.

The floating robots - there were more than one way of getting past them as well, and there was more than one route to get to an objective quite a few times.

Didn't the floating robots just shoot you when they saw you? Or am I thinking of something else? :o

As for the different routes... hardly any, really. There might be, for example, two places you have to go to for photos, and you'll be able to go to both of them in any order you choose to... but that's about it, really. And I did play most of the game twice to make sure ('cos of that bug, y'know) and found virtually no ways to deviate from the path the second time.

Anyway, I don't have a huge problem with it, it's just that considering the game world is so open and vast and free, it seemed a shame to me that the 'dungeons' were a bit limited and sometimes verging on the side of 'boring'. If they do make a sequel (which we all know isn't very likely) it might be nice to tax the brain a little bit; add some Zelda style items that do different things that you can play around with and gradually unlock abilities to get to new parts of dungeons (more items like the camera disc weapon)... that sorta thing. Kinda like what they did with the hovercraft upgrades, but not so obvious.

No they don't. They don't set out to do most of those things. They might end up that way, but I'm sure it is never the intention of the designers to set out to make them that way.

Your list is completely muddled. A game doesn't set out to be frustrating and limited, although it might well set out to be realistic.

No, you misunderstand. You are suggesting that if a game does exactly what it sets out to do, then it is beyond criticism. You are suggesting that it is only the implementation that can be judged, and not the original vision, and even then only when the implementation doesn't match the original vision. I think that's a bit stupid, really.

There are many 'original visions' that are (in my opinion) worthy of harsh criticism, and are exactly the way they were intended to be made.

Like Splinter Cell, for example. I'm sure it turned out more or less precisely the way they wanted it to. However, in my opinion, things like the trial and error, linearity and aiming system are not very good. This is not the implementation that I'm poo-poo-ing, but the idea of them in the first place.

No game sets out to be bad in the eyes of the creator; but many games set out to be bad from my point of view. If I didn't make such an assessment of anything, then I'd basically agree to not criticise anything so long as the developer is happy with it. Which would be a bit pointless. :P

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But there's still no 'experimentation' really, is there? It's just all so bloody obvious that you have to do this then that then this, etc., etc.

Experimentation then...? Hmmm... you'd go into a room, see the guard patterns, decide to either attack them all or hide from them. Then you'd have one or two (at the most) ways to pass without being seen, or one or two ways to pass by attacking them, then you'd move onto another room and do it again! Whoop!

I just don't see it as having much room to explore what you can do and ways to do it.

Didn't the floating robots just shoot you when they saw you? Or am I thinking of something else? :o

As for the different routes... hardly any, really. There might be, for example, two places you have to go to for photos, and you'll be able to go to both of them in any order you choose to... but that's about it, really. And I did play most of the game twice to make sure ('cos of that bug, y'know) and found virtually no ways to deviate from the path the second time.

Your points are negated by the fact that they can be levelled at most games, and certainly BG+E stable mate POP, which you rate highly. There is no experimentation in that either. You get shown what to do for christ's sake. You can't even jump when you want to, only when the game wants you to. Now that's limiting.

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Have tried going back to it but just bores me. Shame. I know it gets compared to PoP which is perhaps unfair (I mean they only had the publisher and release schedule in common) but I did that in two days and enjoyed it immensely.

Guess it's the characters that bug me. I just don't care about them.

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Your points are negated by the fact that they can be levelled at most games, and certainly BG+E stable mate POP, which you rate highly. There is no experimentation in that either.

There's plenty, as I've already said.

You have to actually work out what to do. I find myself running up certain walls to see if I can make it high enough, failing, and trying a different one.

And you know there is experimentation there because the game has a rewind function to undo that very experimentation itself.

Plus, PoP isn't BG&E. Even if PoP was totally devoid of the abovementioned experimentation, it would still have the advantage of having thoroughly well-realised control scheme and well-implimented 3-Dimensional environment puzzles - and I'd still love it to bits!

And I still really like BG&E (for all the non-dungeon stuff amongst other things); I'd just like it more if they'd improved upon that a little bit.

(I don't see why PoP and BG&E are constantly shoved into the same category either, to be honest.)

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(I don't see why PoP and BG&E are constantly shoved into the same category either, to be honest.)

Good shout. Maybe cos they were released relatively closely and were by far and away the best games for months either way. They were also under appreciated, I got both cheap and finished them both.

Aside from that there's no comparison.

They look really good too.

But that's all :P .

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Good shout. Maybe cos they were released relatively closely and were by far and away the best games for months either way. They were also under appreciated, I got both cheap and finished them both.

Aside from that there's no comparison.

They look really good too.

But that's all :P .

And they're both from Ubi-Soft. :D

I also object to people calling Beyond Good and Evil a 'platform game' too, but that's another matter...

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And they're both from Ubi-Soft. :P

I also object to people calling Beyond Good and Evil a 'platform game' too, but that's another matter...

Aye, gets on my tits too.

Shall we just say that they are too great games, possibly two of the best released last year and leave it at that?

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This thread gets another resurection. I've been holding out looking at it until I finished the game.

I really loved it. Nice atmosphere, very chilled out but fun. I don't want all my game experiences to be high octane action and this was a nice contrast. In many ways I had more fun playing it than the Wind Waker.

I doubt there will ever be a sequel, something I'm not very happy about. Especially after the odd ending.

Did it really sell THAT badly?

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Just read through this thread - been playing the game but didn't want to ready unless there were spoilers.

I have to say I really enjoyed it until the end. Is it the final fight were ...

SPOILER ALERTyou are jade and find out that you are part domz and there's just one fight after another with the funny beasty thing which headbuts youSPOLIER END

...well, I've just given up at that point because I really can't be bothered.

However, up to that point I thought it was great, really good. It does get a bit repetetive at times in terms of gameplay but there's normally just enough motivation to get you through the dull bits.

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Just read through this thread - been playing the game but didn't want to ready unless there were spoilers.

I have to say I really enjoyed it until the end.  Is it the final fight were ...

SPOILER ALERTyou are jade and find out that you are part domz and there's just one fight after another with the funny beasty thing which headbuts youSPOLIER END

...well, I've just given up at that point because I really can't be bothered.

However, up to that point I thought it was great, really good.  It does get a bit repetetive at times in terms of gameplay but there's normally just enough motivation to get you through the dull bits.

Don't give up yet, you're so close. It's not that hard, you don't even have to start all over again if you die. If you're having trouble hitting him when he's above you just side step with B and he'll come back down.

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Ive just completed this, and while it ony took me three days, it was three days of fucking great gaming. Im kinda sad its all over now, and, like everyone else says, there most likely wont be a sequel (or even another game in the same mold).

That Pearl Game is well fun though, it makes me really disorientated when it gets to the 3rd run through

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I think thats my problem with it as well. I just can't seem to get into it, I have to force myself to play it.

I completed it. I enjoyed it but it was too much like a movie - didn't feel like I was participating just watching most of the time.

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Finished it a few days ago. Overrated. In fact, more than a bit 'meh'.

If this is an example of a game that the forum believes should be championed then I think I'll have to stop checking out your recommendations.

Also see: Ninja Gaiden, PoP etc.

<_<

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