Dawn of the Dead. BBC2 11.20

[Liquid Myth]

Of the bits I watched (Police Story was on as well, so that won hands down), it was fucking woeful.

Anybody who thinks this is better than the re-make should be gunned down.

[kerraig UK]

Of the bits I watched (Police Story was on as well, so that won hands down), it was fucking woeful.

Anybody who thinks this is better than the re-make should be gunned down.

Now i'm all fro opinions and everything, but...no

[cassidy]

Nope Mr Reverse your opinion is so wrong.Woeful how the hell is it woeful.

I also love the line how cna people prefer this to the remake. Without the original what exactly is it a remake off then.

Although I dont agree with Kerraig in that only people who havent seen it consider it a horror film. I think its a top class horror film and one of my faves of all time, it must have been the 20plus time I watched it last night still works.

Its like the scene in Day with the calendar from watching the original trailer in the 80's then the movie in the 80's. You know whats coming in the scene do I jump. Yup everytime.

[Liquid Myth]

It's a stupid film. It's aged terribly. If it's such a classic that so many want me to prescribe to, then I should be able to watch any scene and watch it for whatever it was meant to portray; not some stupid shit which, as I watch, I cringe and then fumble for the remote whilst thinking, "this is awful! And I'm missing Police Story".

The zombies were not in the slightest convincing. They kept changing in what they could do every scene; one scene, a guy had the knowledge to pick up a wrench to smash a window, or something; the next time, they couldn't get through the window. Worst of all, I thought, was that they could ably navigate a staircase and follow a route without going straight for their prey.

And I watched the re-make (or "re-imagining", as it should be) first, and was quite aptly blown away by it. That was much better.

[rllmuk]

that film was rubbish. rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish.

and i stopped playing harvest moon to watch it. gah.

[kerraig UK]

It's a stupid film. It's aged terribly. If it's such a classic that so many want me to prescribe to, then I should be able to watch any scene and watch it for whatever it was meant to portray; not some stupid shit which, as I watch, I cringe and then fumble for the remote whilst thinking, "this is awful! And I'm missing Police Story".

The zombies were not in the slightest convincing. They kept changing in what they could do every scene; one scene, a guy had the knowledge to pick up a wrench to smash a window, or something; the next time, they couldn't get through the window. Worst of all, I thought, was that they could ably navigate a staircase and follow a route without going straight for their prey.

And I watched the re-make (or "re-imagining", as it should be) first, and was quite aptly blown away by it. That was much better.

wrong wrong wrong wrong.

You cant take any scene at face value in a movie that is about character arch. it doesn't play like most horror films (like the remake). It doesn't build characters up for gory demises, it builds them into a family unit that you relate to. you cant do that if you keep flicking over to police story.

Zombies can use objects as weapons. nothing new there.

The original was made on a budget. The remake has far superior effects, editing, sound etc true. But the original has a heart and a brain. Something not many 'horror' movies have. It has developed characters and realistic situations. What other horror movie would bother dealing with, and creating set-pieces from the minutae of locking doors or getting supplies.

As unrealistic a world as one overrun by zombies is, Romero MAKES it believable by showing how we would deal with it. Martial law, making it illegal to occupy private residence, mass burnings of the dead, people abandoning their responisibilities to escape, plunderers taking advantage etc.

In the remake i dont think we even see anyone eat any food!

[kerraig UK]

that film was rubbish. rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish.

and i stopped playing harvest moon to watch it. gah.

Jeez you guys dont have a clue do you?

I understand all the arguments for 'it just being an opinion' and against 'people who dont like it just dont get it' but...

You just dont get it.

Its not a terrible movie its an incredible movie.

the production values are awful, agreed. it was made in a time of mono sound, 16mm film and analogue offline editing. You couldnt make cheap movies look expensive then like you can now. And visually the movie suffers for it.

BUT, it's ideology is sound, it's writing is intelligent and it's characters are some of the most rich and believable in horror cinema history. To me my favourite scenes arent even the gore scenes. The helicopter journey where flyboy is trying to assert his authority despite being exhausted "you know where we are?", "yeah i know exactly where we are"...

The scene where Gaylen Ross, after being abandoned without a gun and revealed to be pregnant asserts herself and shows that she isn't willing to be sidelined just because she's the vulnerable woman, thereby showing her husband to be even more useless and cowardly.

The character development is as well written and played out as anything from American beauty to Gods and monsters.

And thats not even starting on the social satire.

I do understand how easy it is to miss all this. It is a zombie film after all. And it is unlike any other horror movie ever so it requires a readjustment of thought, but to write it off as terrible because of some blue face paint or pink blood is missing the point entirely.

I agree that it is horribly elitist and superior of me to suggest that a zombie film went over your head, but it did.

[Warszawa]

Jeez you guys dont have a clue do you?

I understand all the arguments for 'it just being an opinion' and against 'people who dont like it just dont get it' but...

You just dont get it.

Its not a terrible movie its an incredible movie.

the production values are awful, agreed. it was made in a time of mono sound, 16mm film and analogue offline editing. You couldnt make cheap movies look expensive then like you can now. And visually the movie suffers for it.

BUT, it's ideology is sound, it's writing is intelligent and it's characters are some of the most rich and believable in horror cinema history. To me my favourite scenes arent even the gore scenes. The helicopter journey where flyboy is trying to assert his authority despite being exhausted "you know where we are?", "yeah i know exactly where we are"...

The scene where Gaylen Ross, after being abandoned without a gun and revealed to be pregnant asserts herself and shows that she isn't willing to be sidelined just because she's the vulnerable woman, thereby showing her husband to be even more useless and cowardly.

The character development is as well written and played out as anything from American beauty to Gods and monsters.

And thats not even starting on the social satire.

I do understand how easy it is to miss all this. It is a zombie film after all. And it is unlike any other horror movie ever so it requires a readjustment of thought, but to write it off as terrible because of some blue face paint or pink blood is missing the point entirely.

I agree that it is horribly elitist and superior of me to suggest that a zombie film went over your head, but it did.

Exactly.

I'm surprised the fact that it's about the plight of the protagonists goes over everyone's head. I suppose the preference for many is to have the human characters as one dimensional fodder for a bunch of spectacular death set pieces.

Yes, it's dated and could do with a good remastering or something of that sort, but to say it's crap because the technical limitations of the time in which it was made is silly. Absolutely no different to saying that Super Mario Bros. is a shit game because it can't compete technically with Jumping Flash.

[jeff mills gran]

its a fucking class film and i'll kick the living(dead) shit out of anyone who says otherwise.

xx

love,

jmg

[Pochacco]

This reminds me of the whole Ring (Jpn) v The Ring (US) debate I had a few months back.

kerraig UK I totally agree with what you say. I never saw the movie till last night and it's chilling enough just to think what if society turned out that way tomorrow... what the heck would we do?

On another note, wtf was up with that one legged Reverend?!?

[kerraig UK]

That one legged reverend is sooo creepy

"Please to let me pass. Many have died. In the basement of this building you will find them. The people of 102 will do as you wish now. You are stronger than us, but soon i think, they be stronger than you.

When the dead walk, we must stop the killing, or we lose the war"

Thank christ someone who watched it for the first time last night liked it. You are my new favourite poster

[futureshock]

To but Fulci Zombi above this well, words fail me, dont get me wrong I like his work(not the misogynistic stuff) however the only top thing in Zombi is that shark and that eye scene. The Beyond(uncut) is far far superior to zombi(zombie flesh) eaters)

You've identified specific scenes in Zombi which is fine, but I'd rather point to the movie as a whole - its completeness, its acting, it's soundtrack and the fear created by Fulci. (and anyways, you missed out the neck-ripping scene and the entrails feast (both cut in the UK))

Compared to the completely evil and terrifying zombies of Fulci, DotD just came across as a camp bunch of inept actors swinging their arms about. The blood was orange and every zombie has blue paint on their face. Yes, it was made on a low budget, but so was Fulci's work.

I also think The Beyond a brilliant film, too. it's another movie where Fulci doesn't fuck about.

As for the social analogies within DotD - I agree - they are there to be seen, and I'm surprised some of the fans think other people couldn't spot them. However, I can't see how this makes the movie experience *much* better, though.

Night of the Dead was better. More tension, more claustrophobia and infinitely better acting.

[rllmuk]

Jeez you guys dont have a clue do you?

I understand all the arguments for 'it just being an opinion' and against 'people who dont like it just dont get it' but...

You just dont get it.

// some guff

I agree that it is horribly elitist and superior of me to suggest that a zombie film went over your head, but it did.

i have a mate who's of the exact same opinion of you. the rest of us just ignore him at this point.

i didn't enjoy it and found it very boring. say i've missed undercurrents all you like - it still won't change my mind.

[rllmuk]

Yes, it's dated and could do with a good remastering or something of that sort, but to say it's crap because the technical limitations of the time in which it was made is silly. Absolutely no different to saying that Super Mario Bros. is a shit game because it can't compete technically with Jumping Flash.

I'm saying it's crap, cause it is - disregarding any time scale.

I wouldn't say Super Mario Bros is a shit game however

[kerraig UK]

hate people like that too.

Have opinions that differ with mine on anything you like. EXCEPT DotD

[rllmuk]

hate people like that too.

Have opinions that differ with mine on anything you like. EXCEPT DotD

fair enough.

[rllmuk]

//some guff

Went over your head didn't it?

grow up. you can now be classed a fanboy with regards to this area; therefore you loose all ability to form a reasoned reply resorting to ludicrous insults instead.

and don't play the game with me, you meant it.

[cassidy]

In reply to futureshock I pointed out those scenes because in my opinion they are my fave in the film. No need to point out the UK version is cut, I called it zombi its original title which is the uncut italian title IIRC. I didnt spend the late 80's early 90's seeking out his films so I cant watch butchered UK versions.

The beyond though such a class film I love it. That ending, those spiders, that quicklime scene and the daylight through head. Fulci's best IMO, second would be Gates of Hell- City of the living Dead, finally zombi. Still havent seen House by the cemetary. Should do really.

[jeff mills gran]

Da dah dah dah, dah da dah dah, dah dah dah, dada dah dadadadada dah dah dah!

[Kelthink]

'Rose-tinted spectacle sale - ON NOW!' , it seems.

[jeff mills gran]

'Rose-tinted spectacle sale - ON NOW!' , it seems.

don't be such a dick!

[rllmuk]

you've made your assertion that you found the film boring more of a statement about your poor ability at viewing and interpreting films

so thinking this film is poor means you are a 'film' retard. ok!

// sigh

[futureshock]

The beyond though such a class film I love it. That ending, those spiders, that quicklime scene and the daylight through head. Fulci's best IMO, second would be Gates of Hell- City of the living Dead, finally zombi. Still havent seen House by the cemetary. Should do really.

Make a point of seeing House by the Cemetary because it compliments his other horrors very well.

I finally tracked down a New York Ripper torrent a while back and saw what all the fuss was about. Not his best film by any means, but there are a couple of gory scenes which managed to make me gasp, twenty years later.

[Liquid Myth]

I cited the film as being poor, because I'd gotten the impression that it's fans cared more about the fact that they were showing the "uncut" version more than the gritty social commentry offered by the film.

It's not like I need someone to tell me whether a film is talking about modern society or not, but when you're given the impression that the horror is the main aspect (remember: we're meant to be dealing with a horror movie here) then it's difficult to see it as nothing more than crap, and especially when you're dipping in and out of the film without much of a clue as to what you're meant to be watching.

I also doubt that I'd prefer the original over the new one, especially after what that threw at me. No hope. Lightning fast assailents [sic] who will kill you in the worst way possible. Zombie babies. Yes, it may fit into the "standard" of horror movies nowadays. But it's above the lot of them.

[aubergine]

Well, when I'm a world famous director I'll remake Dawn of the Dead properly: the plot of the original, but with good effects.

Please don't...

... Thats gonna be my movie to make

[kerraig UK]

I honestly think the only way you could remake dawn faithfully would be to abandon the mall entirely. A virus that passed through the internet would be the best. Maybe setting it in a home for agarophobics or something. The mall wasn't a setting, it was device used as a metaphor for the consumerist nature of the time. it is a nature which has transformed into something more distinctly insular and antisocial these days.

I'm not even sure zombies would be a valid enemy anymore.

[futureshock]

I honestly think the only way you could remake dawn faithfully would be to abandon the mall entirely. A virus that passed through the internet would be the best. Maybe setting it in a home for agarophobics or something. The mall wasn't a setting, it was device used as a metaphor for the consumerist nature of the time. it is a nature which has transformed into something more distinctly insular and antisocial these days.

I'm not even sure zombies would be a valid enemy anymore.

Sounds like Rocky & Bullwinkle to me...

[Moose]

You've identified specific scenes in Zombi which is fine, but I'd rather point to the movie as a whole - its completeness, its acting, it's soundtrack and the fear created by Fulci.

ZFE ties with Day of the Dead for the best opening ten minutes of these type of films, sure, and it certainly has some of the most incredible zombies you'll see; I can't quite understand how you can avoid the ultimate conclusion that it is actually a bit rubbish as a complete movie, however. Continuity and a sense of place are testily scrunched up into a ball and thrown over Fulci's shoulder as he concentrates on orchestrating his elaborate set pieces - the scene involving the Spanish conquistadores is great in terms of an elevating sense of terror, for example, but compared to Romero's stark and grimy documentary feel, it makes little or no sense in any terms whatsoever (why are the cadavers of the conquistadores still intact after almost half a millennium later? Why are they seemingly buried about three inches under the ground?).

Yeah, you could call this nitpicking of the most pathetic sort, but one of the reasons that Romero's zombie films are hailed as classics is that they're pretty watertight in these kind of details, and all the more believable for that. And when you're dealing with something as essentially ludicrous as armies of dead people mysteriously coming back to life, you need as much believability as you can conjure up. ZFE absolutely haemorrages believability as it staggers from start to finish, and when we reach the zombies shambling across the city bridge at the end - flanked on both sides by the calm, everyday traffic that Fulci couldn't change for dramatic purposes, and soundtracked by the uber-hammy "they're getting in through the front door! I'm still wearing my headphones and talking into this microphone! Oh no!" DJ, it's all pretty laughable stuff.

Great first ten minutes, though.

[Comrade]

But government and the military haven't fallen. Thats what people are escaping from. They're not trying to get away from the zombies. If you look at Roger and Peter, they aint even scared of the zombies, it's the military they are running from.

Well, I think that after the period of months that pass in the film, if the military was still about they probably would have turned up already. And the TVs down and everything, that certainly implies to me that infrastructure had fallen. I haven't seen Day, so maybe this is covered there, but I shouldn't have had to see a sequel to a film to properly explain the original.

Oh, and Kerraig, you're starting to get pretty scary. I mean you just did a massive post in reply to Rllmuk's post stating why his various assumptions and beliefs about the film are wrong, when all he said was "it's shit".

I really think you've built up in your head how good the film is. I mean I thought it was pretty good, but there were obvious flaws in it that weren't related to the fact that it's dated. For instance, the satire is pretty weak. I mean there's "The zombies are wandering around the mall like slack-jawed gawpers! Just like in real life, ho ho!" and "They've become so enamoured with the fake luxury of the mall that they're willing to give their lives for it!" and that's about it. If there is any deeper satire there, please point it out to me.

Also the pacing was pretty bad. It took them ages to get to the mall, where the main story was. The whole stuff in the projects made its point, and then stayed on screen for ages after. And frankly, I would have cut the whole helipad bit all together. While there were some nice parts in these bits, overall they slowed the story down. It kind of seemed that Romero didn't know where the story was going, had them visit a mall and then just thought "Well, why don't they just stay there?". And the ending as I said seemed pretty tacked on. If there had been a constant ominous threat of raiders then it would have been OK, but there wasn't.

I really think Kerraig that you've thrown your toys out of the cot at the mere thought that anyone could possibly notice the (very real) flaws of your favourite ever film.

[CrispinG]

Someone help me understand what was happening at the start of the film. There seem to be two different military/police units fighting each other - one with the SWAT midget, the crazy redneck and Peter, the other with, um, two cops in a patrol car. What happened?