The Dreamcast

[kamrantaz]

You know you love it you slags.

[The Liberal Elite]

You know you love it you slags.

You are an idiot.

[squirtle]

You are an idiot.

[highfive.jpg]

[kamrantaz]

if you disagree with my comments which have been a fair and balanced look back at the DC rather than rose tinted then add your own instead of throwing insults from the sidelines.

Whats your opinion on the DC?

[Sprite Machine]

[squirtle]

[everyoneintheworlddoingahighfive.jpg]

[Ryan]

There it is, folks - the key to innovation is getting sharp textures.

The way forwards. Yes.

I.e. the PS2 is so bad it's still at the N64 level graphically - ie crappy textures.

Gameplay innovation is something completely different, and is something only really M$ (Live) and Sony (Eyetoy) have done anything about over. Over here at least.

[Sprite Machine]

I.e. the PS2 is so bad it's still at the N64 level graphically - ie crappy textures.

But (whilst that's a tremendous overexaggeration anyway) you were talking about innovation, not the amount of texture RAM it happens to have!

Gameplay innovation is something completely different, and is something only really M$ (Live) and Sony (Eyetoy) have done anything about over.  Over here at least.

You outta check that 'innovation' topic out.

[HPS]

Whats your opinion on the DC?

Sniggered at it prior to release. Played an import machine and fell in love.

Sold my DC to get a PS2. Sold my PS2 to get a Cube. Sold my Cube to buy my DC back.

The XBox will be my last console, but I can never see me selling it or my Dreamcast. They are both like one of the family now.

[Initial K]

And overrated is the worst term ever.

Nope, After reading this thread im happy to wager the most annoying term ever is "Superior Sequel" especially as its been so badly mishandled by many people who are embarrassing themselves and should be banned already

my comments which have been a fair and balanced look back at the DC

Have they? I must have missed those!

Were they in a different topic?

Saying a game is probably not even very good when you haven't even played it can now be classed as a balanced look can it?

Ban request x4

[Ryan]

[Ryan]

But (whilst that's a tremendous overexaggeration anyway) you were talking about innovation, not the amount of texture RAM it happens to have!

You outta check that 'innovation' topic out.

Innovation, as in graphical innovation. That is what every machine up to PS2/Xbox/GC really showed (Ico excluded as it really does make you go "wow").

The PS2 was let down only by lack of RAM, with a decent amount of memory we would have seen something special from that machine when it was released. It is crap, and until recently the games looked more N64/PS1 than they did Dreamcast.

When the PS2 was released PC games looked better, as did DC games. When the DC was released, the DC games looked better than the PC games of the time. Xbox and GC were both beaten by better looking PC games also.

[kamrantaz]

Nope, After reading this thread im happy to wager the most annoying term ever is "Superior Sequel" especially as its been so badly mishandled by many people who are embarrassing themselves and should be banned already

my comments which have been a fair and balanced look back at the DC

Have they? I must have missed those!

Were they in a different topic?

Saying a game is probably not even very good when you haven't even played it can now be classed as a balanced look can it?

Ban request x4

It was a fair comment. I just applied the "sega rule" to samba.

[Sprite Machine]

Innovation, as in graphical innovation.  That is what every machine up to PS2/Xbox/GC really showed (Ico excluded as it really does make you go "wow").

"Graphical innovation" as in "better graphics"?

The PS2 was let down only by lack of RAM, with a decent amount of memory we would have seen something special from that machine when it was released.  It is crap, and until recently the games looked more N64/PS1 than they did Dreamcast.

When the PS2 was released PC games looked better, as did DC games.  When the DC was released, the DC games looked better than the PC games of the time.  Xbox and GC were both beaten by better looking PC games also.

I simply don't think that was the case at all. At the time of the PS2 launch I was literally gobsmacked by its graphical prowess. The likes of Tekken Tag Tournament, Kessen, SSX and the upcoming videos of The Bouncer, Shadow of Memories and Metal Gear Solid 2 were, far and away, the most graphicaly impressive thing I'd ever laid eyes on - shit textures or otherwise - it was the next generation, as far as I was concerned.

Apparenly Dreamcast graphics only looked 'a bit rigid' to my eyes. I oughta get 'em checked out, eh?

Anyway... innovation? Wha-?

[Landshead]

Since when did pc graphics look as good as Rogue leader in 2001.

Nothing came close IMO

[ICECOLD]

It had some classics like Jet Set Radio but on the whole it was a bit disapointing wasnt it? Every game was hyped as the next best thing eg MSR and it just kept falling short of the promises. As soon as it got going in the summer of 200 when the oncoming games were sounding promising and it felt as though it was finally going to live up to its rep... THEY CANCELLED IT

The PS2 has already overtaken it in quality and number of classics, compared to the megadrive, SNES, Saturn, PSX and N64 it was always missing something that stopped it from becoming a 'complete' system.

RIP DC for the things you could have been.

I don't say this outright very often, but your wrong.

Your looking at it from a modern perspective. You do that, and you see a lot of the machines best games with translations onto other systems.

You look at it from the perspective of three to five years ago however, and its a different story.

Almost every exclusive that released on the machine was not only light years ahead of titles on the PSone and N64, or 1st gen PS2 software, but was exclusive to the Dreamcast.

Owning the machine made you feel like you were on the cutting edge, and that you were going to be treated to a set of classics that only those with the same foresight as you to own the system could own. You felt priveleged.

Lets see what I mean shall we?

These are the exclusives I remember getting or playing, in rough chronological order:

Sonic Adventure

Trickstyle

Power Stone

Soul Calibur

Crazy Taxi

Resident Evil- Code: Veronica

ChuChu Rocket!

Dead or Alive 2

Ecco

House of the Dead II

Virtua Tennis

Power Stone 2

Ferrari F355

MSR

JSR

Shenmue

Quake 3 Arena

PSO

Sonic Adventure 2

Skies of Arcadia

Headhunter

Shenmue II

Virtua Tennis 2

PSO v2.0

Rez

Admittedly, nearly all of these now have a version or improved sequel on a current machine, but at the time of release all were 100% new, fresh, original and exclusive to the DC.

[Sprite Machine]

These are the exclusives I remember getting or playing, in rough chronological order:

Sonic Adventure

Trickstyle

Power Stone

Soul Calibur

Crazy Taxi

Resident Evil- Code: Veronica

ChuChu Rocket!

Dead or Alive 2

Ecco

House of the Dead II

Virtua Tennis

Power Stone 2

Ferrari F355

MSR

JSR

Shenmue

Quake 3 Arena

PSO

Sonic Adventure 2

Skies of Arcadia

Headhunter

Shenmue II

Virtua Tennis 2

PSO v2.0

Rez

That's a lot of "alright" games there, amongst the few great titles. Methinks it was the flashy graphics (which for some reason never looked too great to my eyes) that won people over. Fair enough, perhaps that explains why I'm not blown away by most of it's game library.

Still, exciting times, none-the-less. There was at least a certian magicalness to that generation, as it opened up new possibilities. Respect is due, at the very least, I reckon.

[dismembo]

I think the Dreamcast was worth having for Seaman alone. Never mind the usual lists of DC classics.

[DJ Sack]

The bouncer was actually a DC game at one point before Sony bought the rights to it.

Also while MGS2 does look very nice, it is very basic the way its done, with a lot of square objects, its the fantastic, sharp textures that make it look nice, much like Shenmue.

[Spacehost]

its the fantastic, sharp textures that make it look nice, much like Shenmue.

MGS2? Sharp textures? WHAT?!

[DJ Sack]

Seriously, look at any and every object apart from the characters and its all very square objects and enviroments, and MGS2 does have very sharp textures for a ps2 game which is what make it look so nice.

[Ktw]

The DC was brilliant. I wish I hadn't sold mine (along with all my peripherals).

Definitely getting a new one.

[Spacehost]

Seriously, look at any and every object apart from the characters and its all very square objects and enviroments, and MGS2 does have very sharp textures for a ps2 game which is what make it look so nice.

Blurry Mc. Blurster! But I see you point, it's more the niceness of the textures than any lots-of-polygons-please stuff that saves it. Pretty textures, but a bit fuzzy...

[Ryan]

Since when did pc graphics look as good as Rogue leader in 2001.

Nothing came close IMO

If you're including on the rails stuff, the nature demo on 3dMark2001 beats the crap out of everything.

[Ryan]

I simply don't think that was the case at all. At the time of the PS2 launch I was literally gobsmacked by its graphical prowess. The likes of Tekken Tag Tournament, Kessen, SSX and the upcoming videos of The Bouncer, Shadow of Memories and Metal Gear Solid 2 were, far and away, the most graphicaly impressive thing I'd ever laid eyes on - shit textures or otherwise - it was the next generation, as far as I was concerned.

TTT/Kessen looked crap then, and look crap now.

MGS2 - you have a point there, it's like Ico - the deveoplers seem to have utilised to its strengths, unlike the other games.

I had been totally suckered by the "The Getaway" pics, and was expecting that kind of performance from the system. What they gave wasn't anything like as good as the DC until Ico/MGS2.

For the record I bought my PS2 3mnths before release, and finally received it 2 weeks after - I was one of those who got shafted by Sony's crap allocation of units.

[Mercury]

I have a lot of time for the DC. I really admired what it was trying to do - VMU's, Internet, 60Hz, some wayout peripherals and quirky games. However, looking back, not that many of the games impressed me or have stood the test of time. Part of this is that they have been ported (Rez, Ikaruga, Virtua Tennis).

Soul Calibur is an exception. I am never particularly impressed with graphics but that really made my jaw drop and it was an excellent game to boot. I believe it is superior the the multi-platform sequel. MSR was also excellent and better than PGR IMO. It would have been better without the bugs though and PGR2 has surpassed both predecessors. Daytona and Virtua Tennis were also excellent.

It certainly catered for 2d beat-em-up fans but that isn't my particular brand of vodka.

To me, it missed a really decent football game and a must have like Halo or GTA.

I do think that the XBOX is the closest new console to the DC but MS have had the money to stick with it. Also, Broadband has made online console play more viable than it was with dial-up on the DC. It also has a killer app in Halo. Still doesn't have a decent football game though.

[DJ Sack]

Blurry Mc. Blurster! But I see you point, it's more the niceness of the textures than any lots-of-polygons-please stuff that saves it. Pretty textures, but a bit fuzzy...

Its not that blurry and its not a great shot either, but as you can see on the pipes, they are very basic, but just the way they are textured makes them look nice, and from a zoomed out view you wont notice the corners of the tubes.

They are very good for a ps2, but the DC had much better texture quality, Sega went for image quality rather than brute force, which is what Sony went for.

[Spacehost]

Its not that blurry and its not a great shot either, but as you can see on the pipes, they are very basic, but just the way they are textured makes them look nice, and from a zoomed out view you wont notice the corners of the tubes.

They are very good for a ps2, but the DC had much better texture quality, Sega went for image quality rather than brute force, which is what Sony went for.

Yeah, but I mean, it's more that MGS2 had pretty textures than high-res ones. Now, Shenmue, that had pretty high-res textures. Or something...

[Sprite Machine]

The bouncer was actually a DC game at one point before Sony bought the rights to it.

Really?? We're talking about the shitty Squaresoft beat-em-up here, aren't we? Got any links to original shots or videos of that one?

Also while MGS2 does look very nice, it is very basic the way its done,

I don't really care how it's done, I care about how it looks - fantastic!

TTT/Kessen looked crap then, and look crap now.

Tekken Tag? Looked crap??!!!

Christ man, I mean I know there's no accounting for taste and all that, but blow me!!

The ripple of the shadows over the snow, the extreme high polygoned detail, the smooth, convincing animation, the facial expressions, the gorgeous environments, the lighting... man alive, my jaw hit the floor the first time I saw that demo intro thing with Jin fighting. My word!

And Kessen... yeah, the overhead stuff looked horrid, but the in-game cinematic cuts for each action really showed off the sort of power there was under the hood.

I had been totally suckered by the "The Getaway" pics, and was expecting that kind of performance from the system.

I don't remember those... unless you refer to those obvious pre-renders.. in which case you only have yourself to blame, young man!

For the record I bought my PS2 3mnths before release, and finally received it 2 weeks after - I was one of those who got shafted by Sony's crap allocation of units.

They did that on purpose, you know, held back units.

The bastards.

They are very good for a ps2, but the DC had much better texture quality, Sega went for image quality rather than brute force, which is what Sony went for.

Yes, I've always noticed this to be the case. The DC had (on paper) less memory, less power, less storage and all that, but what it had in abundance was the ability to put an absolutely fabulous final image onto the screen. The massive amounts of V-RAM, the extra sound channels, the clear, crisp picture quality, the texture memory... it was designed to make the final image and sound the best it could be, whereas the PS2 had more stuff going on under the hood (which is why you got the higher polygon counts) but less power used for getting the final image looking as good (hence the 'jaggies' and blurriness).

This is also why all DC to PS2 ports always look awful! The two systems are so very different at such basic levels (as is my understanding).

Personally speaking, however, I always despised the 'fake' look the DC had* and much preferred the blurry 'real' look of the PS2 graphics. Still do, really. I can't seem to find a Dreamcast game that doesn't overuse them god-awful 'transparencies' - yes, even the mighty Shenmue is full of them!

And mip-mapping, too!! What the hell is that?! It's like all textures just fuck off and get pissed somewhere when you move a few feet away from them.

*Like all its game were running off some medium spec PC, or something. It's the same reason why I don't much like the 'look' of PC games either... too artificial, too many obvious polygon joins where you can see how everything is fitted together. No attempt to disguise its inadequecies. I'm hoping, mind you, that this changes when I get my new PC! I've been outta that groove for far too long!

[Liquid Myth]

The bouncer was actually a DC game at one point before Sony bought the rights to it.

Wasn't it a tech demo for the PS2?