MS: "Fewer but better games from now on"

[One Man and his Dog]

Have a cooked tomato then.

Is that like a platform game with shooting elements?

[D-Side]

It's like a first person game which puts gun slinging on the backseat, like DE2 or Morrowind.

[One Man and his Dog]

It's like a first person game which puts gun slinging on the backseat, like DE2 or Morrowind.

So if the gun slinging is on the back seat, what makes it a FPS?

[D-Side]

The press, the public, the PR, the publishers and producers: Basically those who see the term 'FPS' as being all encompassing.

What do you mean by FPS? Individual definitions differ, so to say that you just can't get on with FPS games does seem a bit vague. Specify, man.

[dr_lha]

The press, the public, the PR, the publishers and producers: Basically those who see the term 'FPS' as being all encompassing.

What do you mean by FPS? Individual definitions differ, so to say that you just can't get on with FPS games does seem a bit vague. Specify, man.

FPS is a game where the main aim of the game is to run around shooting things. Usually the shooting is in order for you to get somewhere, the path being mainly linear, with little puzzle solving involved.

Halo, Doom, Quake, Half Life are all FPSs.

I woudl argue that Metroid Prime is not an FPS. Morrowind certainly isn't.

[D-Side]

FPS is a game where the main aim of the game is to run around shooting things. Usually the shooting is in order for you to get somewhere, the path being mainly linear, with little puzzle solving involved.

Halo, Doom, Quake, Half Life are all FPSs.

But all of those games do include puzzle solving in one form or another, whether than be manipulation of switches or thorough exploration of areas. Not only that, but I believe that none of those games are directly comparable to each other. Even Doom and Quake are chalk and cheese when you really think about it.

[dr_lha]

But all of those games do include puzzle solving in one form or another, whether than be manipulation of switches or thorough exploration of areas. Not only that, but I believe that none of those games are directly comparable to each other. Even Doom and Quake are chalk and cheese when you really think about it.

Not really, the minor amount of puzzle solving in those games hardly make them puzzle games. Like it or not Halo, Quake and Half Life are basically the same game type.

Calling Doom and Quake chalk and cheese is, IMHO, calling Ikaruga and 1942 chalk and cheese. Yes Ikaruga is clearly a more advance game, but in reality the game types are basically the same. So no, when I really think about, Doom and Quake are not chalk and cheese (I've finished both BTW).

[D-Side]

Not really, the minor amount of puzzle solving in those games hardly make them puzzle games. Like it or not Halo, Quake and Half Life are basically the same game type.

No, they aren't. Not even slightly.

Calling Doom and Quake chalk and cheese is, IMHO, calling Ikaruga and 1942 chalk and cheese. Yes Ikaruga is clearly a more advance game, but in reality the game types are basically the same.

No, they really aren't. They really, really aren't.

So no, when I really think about, Doom and Quake are not chalk and cheese (I've finished both BTW).

So, a purely keyboard driven FPS, one that works primarily on a 2D plane, an FPS that uses Shmup numbers to entertain is entirely the same as an exploration centred, platforming happy accuracy test? Get the fuck out of here.

[Alex W.]

Actually, Doom and Quake are basically the same game type, and you've got to admit that Halo has some paralells (the interface and screen layout, and the fighting-from-goal-to-goal basic structure at the very least).

EDIT- IMO, naturally. However Quake was almost certainly Doom III.

[dr_lha]

Actually, Doom and Quake are basically the same game type, and you've got to admit that Halo has some paralells (the interface and screen layout, and the fighting-from-goal-to-goal basic structure at the very least).

EDIT- IMO, naturally. However Quake was almost certainly Doom III.

I'm glad someone agrees with me.

FPS's seem a pretty easy genre of game to define, they're all basically the same. Sure some are better than others, and certainly the quality of environments has improved, but they're basically the same game.

Saying that Doom is nothing like Quake because Quake is "proper 3D" where Doom isn't is pedantry of the highest order I'm afraid.

[dr_lha]

No, they really aren't. They really, really aren't.

D-Side. You want to explain to me exactly how Ikaruga and 1942 are not the same type of game?

They're both vertically scrolling shooters in my book.

[D-Side]

Saying that Doom is nothing like Quake because Quake is "proper 3D" where Doom isn't is pedantry of the highest order I'm afraid.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying they're different because they are different. They use different dynamics, tactics and themes to provide different thrills. Fucking hell, they even play differently. Very differently. This one isn't difficult kids, try to keep up.

[D-Side]

They're both vertically scrolling shooters in my book.

Then you haven't been playing Ikaruga properly. My condolences.

[dr_lha]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying they're different because they are different. They use different dynamics, tactics and themes to provide different thrills. Fucking hell, they even play differently. Very differently. This one isn't difficult kids, try to keep up.

They're both FPSs though. Architypes of the FPS genre in fact.

[One Man and his Dog]

Then you haven't been playing Ikaruga properly. My condolences.

So you don't shoot things whilst scrolling upwards? Is there a hidden platform level?

[Alex W.]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying they're different because they are different. They use different dynamics, tactics and themes to provide different thrills. Fucking hell, they even play differently. Very differently. This one isn't difficult kids, try to keep up.

They both play more or less the same, though. Level design, AI, puzzles, weaponry, all tweaked and refined and a few new things (water) thrown in, but not an earth-shattering jump.

You can't claim it's "not the same" any more than you could claim that FIFA became a whole new kind of game with its Off The Weasel controls or whatever.

[D-Side]

They're both FPSs though. Architypes of the FPS genre in fact.

Well, maybe the term 'FPS' is just a load of non-descriptive bullshit. Have you ever thought about that?

So you don't shoot things whilst scrolling upwards? Is there a hidden platform level?

Perhaps I haven't made myself clear:

As far as I am aware, there are no puzzle elements within 1942. It's simply an old school shooter. Object aversion, that's the key. Ikaruga playfully turns all that shit on its head. It's risk vs reward on a much grander scale. Rather than reaching for that next Pow, you're putting yourself in the firing line intentionally. It requires far greater accuracy in timing and movement, not to mention the lateral thinking aspects in terms of patterns. These two games are completely and utterly incomparable. Almost as much as Half Life and Halo. Jesus, I don't even know where to begin with that one.

[One Man and his Dog]

As far as I am aware, there are no puzzle elements within 1942.  It's simply an old school shooter.  Object aversion, that's the key.  Ikaruga playfully turns all that shit on its head.  It's risk vs reward on a much grander scale.  Rather than reaching for that next Pow, you're putting yourself in the firing line intentionally.  It requires far greater accuracy in timing and movement, not to mention the lateral thinking aspects in terms of patterns.  These two games are completely and utterly incomparable.  Almost as much as Half Life and Halo.  Jesus, I don't even know where to begin with that one.

But at the same doing it in a 2D vertically scrolling environment whilst shooting shit. A bit like 1942.

Also, be honest here. Is chaining in Ikaruga really a "puzzle element"? Is it really a puzzle when the manual tells you how to do it?

[D-Side]

They both play more or less the same, though. Level design, AI, puzzles, weaponry, all tweaked and refined and a few new things (water) thrown in, but not an earth-shattering jump.

Question: Dark Forces and Jedi Knight. Are they essentially the same game?

[dr_lha]

Not really, the minor amount of puzzle solving in those games hardly make them puzzle games. Like it or not Halo, Quake and Half Life are basically the same game type.

No, they aren't. Not even slightly.

To single out this comment from above, if you can't see how Half Life, Quake and Halo are "even slightly" similar then you are a moron I'm afraid.

They're all first person games, where the aim is to get from point A to point B whilst shooting all the bad guys. Minor gameplay differences aside this is what defines these games. Sure there are individual innovations in each of these games, but all that does is make them stand apart from other FPSs.

[Alex W.]

This is becoming increasingly bizarre.

Ikaruga and the likes of Galaga share roots. The fundimental way the game works is similar. They're both vertically scrolling shooters where your only firing direction is upwards and you're awarded points of defeating enemies under certain conditions.

There are also undeniable differences. This is what makes the games different games of the same genre.

The same goes for Doom and Quake. Halo is very different in a lot of ways, but it still shares the fundimental Doom-clone approach of "go to A, get told to go to B, hit switch, go to C, all while defeating foes". The fact that it uses the most incredible AI, physics, and freeform gamplay to do this doesn't change the fact that there is a connection between the two.

Denying it is silly and just sidelines your argument, D-Side, which I've completely forgotten already.

[D-Side]

Is it really a puzzle when the manual tells you how to do it?

The manual tells you about the system, but it doesn't tell you how to exploit it. That's the puzzle.

[One Man and his Dog]

This is like arguing that There Something About Mary and a Woody Allen film aren't comedies. Both are films designed to be humourous, to make you laugh. However one does it in a teen "gross-out" style whilst the other is more intellectual.

Still doesn't stop them both being comedies.

[dr_lha]

Well, maybe the term 'FPS' is just a load of non-descriptive bullshit. Have you ever thought about that?

Sure, that's what "genres" are, a fairly wide description of a whole load of things that share a common basis. In this case the point A->point B whilst shooting people viewed from a first person perspective.

FPS whether you like it or not is a valid genre within gaming, and one that is fairly easy to define. Sure there are games that skirt the edges (Metroid Prime's classifcation has caused much argument), but games like Halo, Half Life and Quake do not.

[Alex W.]

Before everyone was claiming that black isn't black or that yellow-green is the same as orange-green, what was the discussion about, anyway?

[One Man and his Dog]

The manual tells you about the system, but it doesn't tell you how to exploit it. That's the puzzle.

And it is impossible to play the game without the solution to this "puzzle"? Does the solution to this "puzzle" stop you scrolling vertically and shooting shit?

[D-Side]

Ikaruga and the likes of Galaga share roots. The fundimental way the game works is similar. They're both vertically scrolling shooters where your only firing direction is upwards and you're awarded points of defeating enemies under certain conditions.

Except that with Galaga, you're not really moving at all. But yes, apart from that (and all the massive gameplay differences that come with overcoming environment obstacles) they are exactly the same game.

[D-Side]

And it is impossible to play the game without the solution to this "puzzle"?

To any degree of proficiency? Yes, yes it does. Have you played it?

[Alex W.]

Except that with Galaga, you're not really moving at all. But yes, apart from that (and all the massive gameplay differences that come with overcoming environment obstacles) they are exactly the same game.

You're thinking of Galaxians, I think. Galaga was the one where you could move around a (limited) area of the screen.

But just for the sake of providing a better argument, let's change the example to C64 SEUCK classic, Daedelus, in which you negotiated narrow spaces and shot things whilst scrolling upwards.

[One Man and his Dog]

To any degree of proficiency? Yes, yes it does. Have you played it?

Yes I have had the Gamecube version since US release.

I didn't ask about proficiency. Is it suddenly impossile to play the game without this knowledge and does the gameplay differ at all from scrolling vertically and shooting shit?