MS: "Fewer but better games from now on"

[Alex W.]

I weep for humanity when someone won't admit that two superficially similar games are in fact at least superficially similar, simply because he thinks it will weaken his case against someone's dislike of a genre.

[One Man and his Dog]

D-Side, don't take this the wrong way but do you actually know what a genre is?

[dr_lha]

I weep for humanity when someone won't admit that two superficially similar games are in fact at least superficially similar, simply because he thinks it will weaken his case against someone's dislike of a genre.

Indeed - weird isn't it? I don't really understand how someone can say that Doom, Quake and Half Life are not even slightly related in gameplay. I'm speaking as someone who's not a fan of FPSs I'll admit, but I'm also someone who has completed all those games (plus Doom 2 and Quake 2).

[D-Side]

You're thinking of Galaxians, I think. Galaga was the one where you could move around a (limited) area of the screen.

http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=G&game_id=7881

Doesn't look like I am.

But just for the sake of providing a better argument, let's change the example to C64 SEUCK classic, Daedelus, in which you negotiated narrow spaces and shot things whilst scrolling upwards.

It's closer, but this really is getting off the beaten track. Shooters are, by and large, far easier to classify and (unfortunately) lump into one genre. FPS's (for want of several better terms) by virtue of their ingenuity and variety, are not. Unless you're being a class ass clown.

I didn't ask about proficiency. Is it suddenly impossile to play the game without this knowledge and does the gameplay differ at all from scrolling vertically and shooting shit?

Well, yes. Unless you're fundamentally missing the point of the game just for the sake of argument. Oh, right...

[One Man and his Dog]

Well, yes. Unless you're fundamentally missing the point of the game just for the sake of argument. Oh, right...

So if you don't scroll vertically and shoot things, what do you do? Is this the rumoured beat-em-up section? Or perhaps there is a spontaneous, between the trenches style football match between the bad guys and the two chaps in ships which utilises aftertouch, which may or may not have been invented by Dino Dini?

[D-Side]

I weep for humanity when someone won't admit that two superficially similar games are in fact at least superficially similar, simply because he thinks it will weaken his case against someone's dislike of a genre.

Actually, I'm not bemoaning his dislike of the FPS. He can do whatever the fuck he wants really. I was actually lamenting the term 'FPS', which I feel is very short sighted. Personally, I think you three have made a mountain out of a molehile because you thought I was attacking his lifestyle choice.

This is very amusing.

[Alex W.]

Green

Also green.

But different!

Maybe someone who hates Green Number 1 would actually like Green Number 2 if they gave it a chance. Maybe they wouldn't, and just don't like electromagnetic radiation with wavelengths of around 500-600nm.

Doesn't change the fact that they're green.

[D-Side]

So if you don't scroll vertically and shoot things, what do you do? Is this the rumoured beat-em-up section? Or perhaps there is a spontaneous, between the trenches style football match between the bad guys and the two chaps in ships which utilises aftertouch, which may or may not have been invented by Dino Dini?

Can't see beyond your nose. You should get your arse to...

[Alex W.]

Actually, I'm not bemoaning his dislike of the FPS. He can do whatever the fuck he wants really. I was actually lamenting the term 'FPS', which I feel is very short sighted. Personally, I think you three have made a mountain out of a molehile because you thought I was attacking his lifestyle choice.

This is very amusing.

No, I'm making a point: when the world says that games which involve shooting from a first-person perspective are to be dubbed "First Person Shooters", then the games are First Person Shooters, regardless of the wideness or narrowness of the group it represents.

It's like you're bemoaning the description of people as male or female, because it doesn't provide much information about the people. Of course it doesn't, but they're still either male or female.

[One Man and his Dog]

Can't see beyond your nose. You should get your arse to...

So basically it doesn't differ from scrolling vertically and shooting things.

[dr_lha]

Actually, I'm not bemoaning his dislike of the FPS. He can do whatever the fuck he wants really. I was actually lamenting the term 'FPS', which I feel is very short sighted. Personally, I think you three have made a mountain out of a molehile because you thought I was attacking his lifestyle choice.

OK. I'd like as an exercise for the reader for someone to come up with 3 new genres, and explain why Half Life, Quake and Halo fit into these genres and not into any others.

You may not like the description "FPS" but to be honest it's as good a catagory as any other I've heard. When someone says "it's an FPS" I know exactly what kind of gameplay to expect.

[D-Side]

So basically it doesn't differ from scrolling vertically and shooting things.

Well yes, it does. You're not always vertically scrolling.

[Alex W.]

Well yes, it does. You're not always vertically scrolling.

I don't think that the mini-cutscenes showing you firing up your engines count, D-Side.

[D-Side]

No, I'm making a point: when the world says that games which involve shooting from a first-person perspective are to be dubbed "First Person Shooters", then the games are First Person Shooters, regardless of the wideness or narrowness of the group it represents.

It's like you're bemoaning the description of people as male or female, because it doesn't provide much information about the people. Of course it doesn't, but they're still either male or female.

That's where you and I differ I suppose. Why do you insist on viewing the world in such a black and white manner? Why be told what's right when you can find out for yourself?

[D-Side]

I don't think that the mini-cutscenes showing you firing up your engines count, D-Side.

Never made it to a boss Alex? How entirely unsurprising.

[One Man and his Dog]

Well yes, it does. You're not always vertically scrolling.

Ladies and Gentlemen we have reached a whole new level of pettyness.

I take it that Nemesis/Gradius is now no longer a horizontal scrolling shooter.

[dr_lha]

This is like arguing that There Something About Mary and a Woody Allen film aren't comedies. Both are films designed to be humourous, to make you laugh. However one does it in a teen "gross-out" style whilst the other is more intellectual.

Still doesn't stop them both being comedies.

What an extremely excellent example. I applaud you on your insight!

[D-Side]

Ladies and Gentlemen we have reached a whole new level of pettyness.

Now just hang on one second: You've decided at every point to dismiss the core dynamic behind Ikaruga, just so you can pigeonhole the game and carry on with your pointlessly narrowminded little diatribe and you're calling me petty? You've got a fucking cheek.

[Alex W.]

That's where you and I differ I suppose. Why do you insist on viewing the world in such a black and white manner? Why be told what's right when you can find out for yourself?

I don't view the world in a black-and-white manner, or accept labels, though! I can, however, for speed, ease, and clarity, say that Halo combines a basic FPS backbone with strategic intricacies and numerous listed gameplay innovations. The term FPS there is simply a way of letting my contemporaries know what the hell I'm talking about. Likewise, I could say that Metroid Prime is fundimentally FPS-based but with a heavy adventure element.

I could ignore the simple way of describing the thing based on the titles it clearly takes its inspiration from (Metroid Prime, for example, lifts a great deal from System Shock 2, Half Life, and the other titles its team previously worked on), and start from the ground up describing the game in a different manner, perhaps based more on the differences than the similarities to existing titles, but to ignore one of those approaches completely would leave me at a huge disadvantage in terms of vocabulary.

A good example: if I'm talking to someone for five minutes about Metroid, I can say it's a platform shooter where you gather loads of cool abilities. When I'm yabbering on here, I'll use far more verbose nonsense.

It seems that it is you, not I, how is closed-minded. You refuse to use such a useful descriptive tool merely because it's a bit ineffective.

[Alex W.]

Never made it to a boss Alex? How entirely unsurprising.

Not only are stationary bosses part of the vertical scrolling genre staple, but they're entirely acceptable. You've just got a scroll speed of zero for a temporary timeframe.

And the core dynamic of Ikaruga isn't the puzzle aspect, the very fundimental core dynamic is in fact having enemies come on top of the screen and you shoot them from below. It's the bare bones of the game. It's what you need to know to get started.

Go on, try describing the game from scratch without describing that bit, and see how effective you are.

[dr_lha]

Now just hang on one second: You've decided at every point to dismiss the core dynamic behind Ikaruga, just so you can pigeonhole the game and carry on with your pointlessly narrowminded little diatribe and you're calling me petty? You've got a fucking cheek.

It's not a core dynamic of the game though is it? Its perfectly possible to play Ikaruga without doing any chaining at all. Whether this is "not playing it properly" is besides the point. Puzzle solving is a core dynamic of a game like Zelda, you can't progress without solving the puzzles. In Ikaruga you can progress without chaining.

The "core dynamic" of Ikaruga is the fact that it's a vertically scrolling (mostly) shoot 'em up. Same "core dynamic" as 1942 I think you'll find.

[D-Side]

The term FPS there is simply a way of letting my contemporaries know what the hell I'm talking about.

Lucky then that your contemporaries are as eager to use misleading and ultimately pointless terminology as you are.

I've nothing further to say on the matter really, other than that I'm a little disappointed in you three for being so utterly narrowminded, just for the sake of an argument. You need not agree, just simply understand the point I am trying to make. But then again, it's so much easier to be a bunch of fucking cocks.

[One Man and his Dog]

Now just hang on one second: You've decided at every point to dismiss the core dynamic behind Ikaruga, just so you can pigeonhole the game and carry on with your pointlessly narrowminded little diatribe and you're calling me petty? You've got a fucking cheek.

The core dynamic is to scroll upwards (OK, until you reach a boss) and shoot things. That is how you play the game. Chaining is not essential to play the game. It may be essential for a high score but not to play the game.

You obviously have a either a fundamental misunderstanding of or dislike of the whole concept of a genre.

A further example, Super Mario World and Yoshi's Island are quite different game sin certain ways. YI has the whole carrying Mario dynamic, the ability to shoot eggs and limited flying ability at all times. However, this doesn't stop them both being platform games as the core of the game fits neatly into the genre of platformers. Much like the core concepts of Ikaruga, to scroll vertically and shoot things, fit in perfectly with the genre of vertical shooters.

Or do we now have an entire genre called "Ikarugas"?

Again I ask if you know what a genre actually is?

[The Liberal Elite]

Ikaruga is a puzzle game. The puzzle is: which ones do i shoot next in order to keep the combos increasing?

if any of you think that' it's simply a shoot 'em up you could do yourself a favour and try and find the video that's been doing the rounds of someone completing it in one credit, and watch what the player is trying to accomplish.

[Alex W.]

Lucky then that your contemporaries are as eager to use misleading and ultimately pointless terminology as you are.

I've nothing further to say on the matter really, other than that I'm a little disappointed in you three for being so utterly narrowminded, just for the sake of an argument. You need not agree, just simply understand the point I am trying to make. But then again, it's so much easier to be a bunch of fucking cocks.

As I've stated time and again, just because the term FPS is a poor label does not mean it's an incorrect one. Get it into your head. Like calling someone male or female, it's fucking useless as a descriptor, but it's fundimental and true.

You, however, continue to refute this fact. That's narrow minded. I've argued on this forum and others more times than you would believe that System Shock 2 has more survival horror elements than FPS ones, and is in fact better described from the ground up to avoid misleading people, but the fact remains that it fits inside the genre definitions.

I've gone and stated both side of this argument twice in here now- that FPS is both a correct descriptor for Halo and a fairly poor and feeble one. You, however, continue to spout for one side, and have added insult to the mix because you simply can't provide anything meaningful anymore.

Who's closed minded?

Also, you are Phreak, I claim my £50.

[D-Side]

http://www.sirkain.net/~kiken/Ikareplay.html

[Alex W.]

http://www.sirkain.net/~kiken/Ikareplay.html

*waves arms around in a demented manner*

I know it's mostly puzzle-based! But it's also a vertically scrolling shooter, in that you scroll vertically and shoot things!

It's both!

Do you see? Or do I need to draw a Venn Diagram?

[D-Side]

And the core dynamic of Ikaruga isn't the puzzle aspect, the very fundimental core dynamic is in fact having enemies come on top of the screen and you shoot them from below. It's the bare bones of the game. It's what you need to know to get started.

*waves arms around in a demented manner*

I know it's mostly puzzle-based!

Clearly you don't, Alex. Sort it the fuck out.

[MK-1601]

This is ridiculous. Predictably so.

[One Man and his Dog]

This is ridiculous. Predictably so.

This time next week, why Gran Turismo isn't a driving game.