MS: "Fewer but better games from now on"

[Alex W.]

Clearly you don't, Alex.  Sort it the fuck out.

Just to make things perfectly clear to you, then, in the most patronising manner possible:

It's based on a vertically scrolling shooter, that is, the interface and the basic relationship between the player, the targets, and the level is that of a game in which there is fixed vertical motion and the player fires projectiles towards opponents with the ultimate goal of destroying them or rendering them harmless. Extra play mechanics (colour system) layered on top of this, combined with the level layouts themselves, promote problem-solving, the defining aspect of a puzzle game. This provides most of the gameplay pleasure.

Do you see?

[One Man and his Dog]

I'm off to bed. Night chaps.

[Alex W.]

Come to think of it, that last post of mine just about completed everything I have to say. I've got nothing else to tell D-Side and he's not had anything else to tell me since about half an hour ago.

[The Liberal Elite]

Don't you just looove pigeonholing? Shades of grey my arse!

[Alex W.]

Don't you just looove pigeonholing? Shades of grey my arse!

I don't want to pigeonhole Ikaruga, it's a damn fine and very specially designed game, but the undeniable fact is that it has at its heart a familiar gameplay device which means it can be given a genre label. The fact that the label should never be mentioned in the same breath as the game becuase it would sell it short is entirely besides the point.

[MK-1601]

This time next week, why Gran Turismo isn't a driving game.

What pedantic fools we've been!

[The Liberal Elite]

I don't want to pigeonhole Ikaruga, it's a damn fine and very specially designed game, but the undeniable fact is that it has at its heart a familiar gameplay device which means it can be given a genre label. The fact that the label should never be mentioned in the same breath as the game becuase it would sell it short is entirely besides the point.

...so why do you say that now when you've been arguing for the past million pages that it should be pigeonholed because of the way it plays?

[Alex W.]

What pedantic fools we've been!

Didn't you hear? It's really got more in common with Elite, or indeed an RPG. Certainly the long-term appeal isn't that of a typical driving game, the driving game is just the heart of it.

[Alex W.]

...so why do you say that now when you've been arguing for the past million pages that it should be pigeonholed because of the way it plays?

I'm arguing that it can be, and that the label actually fits. I for one can see that a game is a vertically scrolling shooter at heart without automatically assuming it's Radiant Silvergun again and pigeonholing it.

Open your eyes! They're games with a seed of genre familiarity and a world of innovation!

[D-Side]

And let me make it equally clear:

The 'puzzle' aspect as you call it, is not an 'extra', moreover the core of how to play the game to any degree of competency. In short, immovable obstacles aside (such as the energy bearing crates on level 2), one could complete Ikaruga by simply charging off enemy fire and using the charge shot, which utterly removes the 'core dynamics' that you refer to, that being destroying enemies with vertical fire. Now read that again, just to be clear: one can complete Ikaruga without the need for shooting enemies in a conventional manner. How many vertically scrolling shooters can say the same? Yes, there are obvious similarities to other vertical scrolling shoot-em-ups. Yes, it can be classified as a vertically scrolling shooter. But that was never really my argument, nor the issue which, lest we forget, was the term 'FPS'. My point concerning Ikaruga is that it is so far removed from other vertically scrolling shooters that lumping it in with fairly (if not extremely) disimilar games seems wrong, no matter the terminology. You could call the genre 'hooj flaps' and I still wouldn't put it in the same fucking pot as 1942.

[The Liberal Elite]

Didn't you hear? It's really got more in common with Elite, or indeed an RPG. Certainly the long-term appeal isn't that of a typical driving game, the driving game is just the heart of it.

la la la...

So Burnout's your favourite game ever, eh? like racing games, eh? Trying Gran turismo! What do you mean it's nothing like outrun? they're both racing games, for crying out loud! fucking well enjoy the fucking game!

[Alex W.]

Come to think of it, of all the games to be arguing against pigeonholing for, who the fuck chose Ikaruga? Why not something genuinely antigenre like In Memoriam? That's certainly got no basis in any other game lineage.

[D-Side]

Didn't you hear? It's really got more in common with Elite, or indeed an RPG. Certainly the long-term appeal isn't that of a typical driving game, the driving game is just the heart of it.

I heard it was the same genre as Supercars.

[The Liberal Elite]

Double Dragon is just like Virtua Fighter 4!

[Alex W.]

la la la...

So Burnout's your favourite game ever, eh? like racing games, eh?  Trying Gran turismo!  What do you mean it's nothing like outrun? they're both racing games, for crying out loud!  fucking well enjoy the fucking game!

You seem to have totally ignored the bit where I make the point that the genre aspect is just a way of figuring out what the basis of the game is. They're both driving games, at no point have I said they're similar games, hence my description there comparing GT's longterm appeal to that of Elite or an RPG.

Or had you pigeonholed me and assumed I was being sarcastic, without looking back over my previous posts and realising I was trying, in vain, to provide a balanced viewpoint?

[Alex W.]

H4TW: Hey, I know, I can't provide anything meaningful to the discussion, so I'll just sit here and make out that Alex W. is trying to say everything is just a genre! That'll be fun.

[D-Side]

You seem to have totally ignored the bit where I make the point that the genre aspect is just a way of figuring out what the basis of the game is.

Why not just define the game on its' own terms, rather than another games'?

[D-Side]

H4TW: Hey, I know, I can't provide anything meaningful to the discussion, so I'll just sit here and make out that Alex W. is trying to say everything is just a genre! That'll be fun.

He's only doing what you did to me. Not fun is it, now that your little cohorts have gone to bed?

[Alex W.]

And let me make it equally clear:

The 'puzzle' aspect as you call it, is not an 'extra', moreover the core of how to play the game to any degree of competency. In short, immovable obstacles aside (such as the energy bearing crates on level 2), one could complete Ikaruga by simply charging off enemy fire and using the charge shot, which utterly removes the 'core dynamics' that you refer to, that being destroying enemies with vertical fire. Now read that again, just to be clear: one can complete Ikaruga without the need for shooting enemies in a conventional manner. How many vertically scrolling shooters can say the same? Yes, there are obvious similarities to other vertical scrolling shoot-em-ups. Yes, it can be classified as a vertically scrolling shooter. But that was never really my argument, nor the issue which, lest we forget, was the term 'FPS'. My point concerning Ikaruga is that it is so far removed from other vertically scrolling shooters that lumping it in with fairly (if not extremely) disimilar games seems wrong, no matter the terminology. You could call the genre 'hooj flaps' and I still wouldn't put it in the same fucking pot as 1942.

I'm not trying to say the puzzle aspect's a bloody extra, I'm trying to say that it's the meat that the scrolling shooter machinery chews through to provide fun.

[Alex W.]

Why not just define the game on its' own terms, rather than another games'?

Guess what? I stated that you could do that ages ago. I also stated that you could use genre templates as a quick and easy way of describing a game when you need speed and ease. The idea is that both are usable and in fact correct descriptions of the game in different contexts.

[D-Side]

I'm not trying to say the puzzle aspect's a bloody extra, I'm trying to say that it's the meat that the scrolling shooter machinery chews through to provide fun.

Basically, as far as I can tell, you're using more complex and convoluted metaphors to explain what I said around an hour and a holf ago: That Ikaruga's puzzling is its' key concept.

[Alex W.]

He's only doing what you did to me. Not fun is it, now that your little cohorts have gone to bed?

Where?

[Alex W.]

Basically, as far as I can tell, you're using more complex and convoluted metaphors to explain what I said around an hour and a holf ago: That Ikaruga's puzzling is its' key concept.

Yes! I'm also saying that it's also got a scrolling shooter at its heart too, and I'm trying to get you to accept that in fact it's possible for both to be parts of the same game.

[D-Side]

Guess what? I stated that you could do that ages ago.

Like fuck you did.

[Alex W.]

Like fuck you did.

1153:

I don't view the world in a black-and-white manner, or accept labels, though! I can, however, for speed, ease, and clarity, say that Halo combines a basic FPS backbone with strategic intricacies and numerous listed gameplay innovations. The term FPS there is simply a way of letting my contemporaries know what the hell I'm talking about. Likewise, I could say that Metroid Prime is fundimentally FPS-based but with a heavy adventure element.

I could ignore the simple way of describing the thing based on the titles it clearly takes its inspiration from (Metroid Prime, for example, lifts a great deal from System Shock 2, Half Life, and the other titles its team previously worked on), and start from the ground up describing the game in a different manner, perhaps based more on the differences than the similarities to existing titles, but to ignore one of those approaches completely would leave me at a huge disadvantage in terms of vocabulary.

A good example: if I'm talking to someone for five minutes about Metroid, I can say it's a platform shooter where you gather loads of cool abilities. When I'm yabbering on here, I'll use far more verbose nonsense.

It seems that it is you, not I, how is closed-minded. You refuse to use such a useful descriptive tool merely because it's a bit ineffective.

1205:

As I've stated time and again, just because the term FPS is a poor label does not mean it's an incorrect one. Get it into your head. Like calling someone male or female, it's fucking useless as a descriptor, but it's fundimental and true.

You, however, continue to refute this fact. That's narrow minded. I've argued on this forum and others more times than you would believe that System Shock 2 has more survival horror elements than FPS ones, and is in fact better described from the ground up to avoid misleading people, but the fact remains that it fits inside the genre definitions.

I've gone and stated both side of this argument twice in here now- that FPS is both a correct descriptor for Halo and a fairly poor and feeble one. You, however, continue to spout for one side, and have added insult to the mix because you simply can't provide anything meaningful anymore.

[D-Side]

Yes! I'm also saying that it's also got a scrolling shooter at its heart too, and I'm trying to get you to accept that in fact it's possible for both to be parts of the same game.

Indeed, but Ikaruga is just a vertical scroller, isn't it?

[Alex W.]

Indeed, but Ikaruga is just a vertical scroller, isn't it?

No, it's not just a scrolling shooter. As I stated before, twice (three times?), it's a fantastically intricate puzzle game, which just happens to be a scrolling shooter.

I've never said that anything is just anything here. Go on, look for it.

[D-Side]

I don't view the world blah blah blah

That's all very nice, but you're still relying on conventional terms.

...just because the term FPS is a poor label does not mean it's an incorrect one.

Well, in my eyes, it does. This world is made all the more shitty by ill-determined labels and statuses. We all have more than five minutes on this forum, as this thread clearly proves. Let's not start lumping stuff in together just because it's easy. Surely that's not the point of this forum?

[D-Side]

No, it's not just a scrolling shooter. As I stated before, twice (three times?), it's a fantastically intricate puzzle game, which just happens to be a scrolling shooter.

So why is it automatically classified as a scrolling shooter, rather than a puzzle game? Why does that element take precedence when the other is clearly more a defining asset? Come on Al, you're nearly there...

[Alex W.]

Well, in my eyes, it does. This world is made all the more shitty by ill-determined labels and statuses. We all have more than five minutes on this forum, as this thread clearly proves. Let's not start lumping stuff in together just because it's easy. Surely that's not the point of this forum?

I'm not lumping stuff togther, I'm connecting it. As I've stated God only knows how many times now, but you seem to insist on viewing me as some sort of genre-obsessed loon.

Just because you don't want to use a label for a genre as a way of saying something about how a game works, doesn't mean that everyone who does is wrong.