MS: "Fewer but better games from now on"

[dr_lha]

So why is it automatically classified as a scrolling shooter, rather than a puzzle game? Why does that element take precedence when the other is clearly more a defining asset? Come on Al, you're nearly there...

Because, as has been pointed out before, the puzzle aspect is not required for the game, but the shooting part is.

I've managed to get past levels in Ikaruga without performing a single chain. Surely if it were a puzzle game at its core then that couldn't be possible.

I'm sorry - but arguing that Ikaruga isn't a vertically scrolling shooter is pretty pointless. You might as well argue that black is white. The fact that it has puzzle elements doesn't take away from the fact that it is a vertically scrolling shooter at heart. I can't believe you'd argue otherwise.

[Alex W.]

So why is it automatically classified as a scrolling shooter, rather than a puzzle game? Why does that element take precedence when the other is clearly more a defining asset? Come on Al, you're nearly there...

It doesn't have to be, in anything other than someone's opinion, and I don't really think there's much point saying that one aspect is absolutely more significant than the other.

I'd say we've almost argued ourselves down to a compromise here, and we only had to break Rllmuk once.

[One Man and his Dog]

Why not just define the game on its' own terms, rather than another games'?

This is the basic problem. You obviously have a dislike for the concept of a genre.

[D-Side]

I've managed to get past levels in Ikaruga without performing a single chain. Surely if it were a puzzle game at its core then that couldn't be possible.

And surely if Ikaruga were a vertical shooter at its' core, you wouldn't be able to play the vast majority of the game without the need to left off a shot.

This is the basic problem. You obviously have a dislike for the concept of a genre.

I have a dislike for clumsy terminology. Nothing more.

[D-Side]

It doesn't have to be, in anything other than someone's opinion, and I don't really think there's much point saying that one aspect is absolutely more significant than the other.

But Ikaruga is more a vertical shooter than a puzzle game, right?

[One Man and his Dog]

I have a dislike for clumsy terminology.  Nothing more.

Like, in your opinion, Genres?

So far we've seen ridicule put upon first person shooters, vertical scrolling shooters and driving games as genres. Any genres you do accept the existence of?

[D-Side]

Some, specifically those which have outlived their usefulness (FPS, Fighter, Racing). Doom is not comparable to Flashpoint, Powerstone is not comparable to VF4, PGR2 is not comparable to F-Zero, but they are still considered the same genre in certain circles. Why?

[D-Side]

So far we've seen ridicule put upon first person shooters, vertical scrolling shooters and driving games as genres. Any genres you do accept the existence of?

And this sentence doesn't make a great deal of sense. If you're going to be facetious, you can just fuck off.

[One Man and his Dog]

Some, specifically those which have outlived their usefulness (FPS, Fighter, Racing). Doom is not comparable to Flashpoint, Powerstone is not comparable to VF4, PGR2 is not comparable to F-Zero, but they are still considered the same genre in certain circles. Why?

Because at the core the principles are the same. Surely even you can see the similarity between F-Zero and PGR2? Hint: it involves accelerating down the track in a motorised vehicle that you control the direction of.

[One Man and his Dog]

And this sentence doesn't make a great deal of sense. If you're going to be facetious, you can just fuck off.

Idiot-proof version:

Firest person shooters, vertical scrolling shooters and driving games are genres that have been dismissed as valid genres within this thread, mainly by you.

Thus, are there any genres you do accept the existence of?

If you can't see how I got that from my previous post then, well, I am not going to lower myself to the insults you have resorted to on many occasions in this thread.

[D-Side]

Because at the core the principles are the same. Surely even you can see the similarity between F-Zero and PGR2? Hint: it involves accelerating down the track in a motorised vehicle that you control the direction of.

You really aren't grasping this, are you? Going by that definition, we can include hundreds of titles that really have very little to do with racing. Hell, if we correct your little mistake concerning F-Zero (jet propelled, not motorised) then we can include games from other, well established (and equally misleading) 'genres'.

Thus, are there any genres you do accept the existence of?

FFS.

I accept the existence of genres, but I don't accept the vailidity of the concept. I don't see how you can summate a game, nor draw comparison between two very different games by simply using an anacronym or buzzword.

But what's the point in explaining it to you? Clearly you don't understand what I'm saying (through ignorance or stubborness, who's to say?), opting to defend your dislike of the 'FPS genre', which was never really the issue that I was bringing to bear.

Hooray for Rllmuk. It's the new Edge Forum.

[Comrade]

So, Microsoft are making less games then?

[One Man and his Dog]

http://www.uk.atari.com//?pg=game_detail&productID=96

"Ikaruga is a comprehensive, scrolling space shooter (with options for either a vertical or horizontal display) set in 2D, against a rich 3D backdrop."

Atari, the distributor of Ikaruga, seems to think that it is a scrolling shooter.

And on this page:

http://www.uk.atari.com//?pg=listing_games&platformID=10

They refer to it as a "shoot-em-up".

Of course, you know better than them, don't you?

[D-Side]

Well, that's me told.

Bet you're glad that Atari are here to do your thinking for you!

[One Man and his Dog]

Well, that's me told.

Bet you're glad that Atari are here to do your thinking for you!

Yes because I didn't think at all before I had a look at their site.

Is it so hard to understand. I have a certain opinion and it appears that the game's distributor, who probably had a bit more contact with the developers than you or I, agrees with me.

But of course, you are right.

Before anyone says, I had a look at Treasure's site but my complete and utter inability to inderstand any Japanese made things difficult.

[D-Side]

Is it so hard to understand. I have a certain opinion and it appears that the game's distributor, who probably had a bit more contact with the developers than you or I, agrees with me.

Righto.

In conclusion, you know nothing about Ikaruga and neither do Atari.

Everything is right with the world once more.

[One Man and his Dog]

Righto.

In conclusion, you know nothing about Ikaruga and neither do Atari.

Everything is right with the world once more.

Or the alternative way of looking that your inability to see the blindingly obvious is reaching quite comical proportions.

[kensei]

And you can name the good games on one hand before it died (after making that promise)

1. Zelda

2. Zelda

3. Paper Mario

....

Are you serious? The N64 has more truly AAA titles than any other format, ever.

[kensei]

You sounding like you're reaching. KOTOR marmite? since when? Ninja Gaiden not an option because its difficult? I bet you bought VJ, XBL is crap because of the size of its population? What has XBL uptake got to do with you enjoying Xbox games online?

Since the game came out, and there were a lot of people pointing out that it is in fact, ridiculously overrated.

[kensei]

Of course a quick forum search for the rllmuk awards threads would have told you otherwise...

For the Sega stuff alone an Xbox is worthwhile.

There were no points subtracted for people who hated the game. Or indeed another awards for being overrated. All that says is a lot of people liked it, which no one disputes.

[Alex W.]

But Ikaruga is more a vertical shooter than a puzzle game, right?

No. When have I ever said it was? I just made a colourful metaphor for what part each aspect plays in the way the game works.

I get the feeling we're battering eachother over the head different ends of the same stick, so to speak...

[Liquid Myth]

(jet propelled, not motorised)

Clutching at straws, there.

[One Man and his Dog]

Clutching at straws, there.

I didn't notice that the first time. That's just pathetic.

[D-Side]

No. When have I ever said it was?

Clutching at straws, there.

It wasn't really meant to be a serious point, more a demonstration of how the net can be widened to even more ridiculous limits. In light of his all encompassing definition, it seems OMAHD would consider Spy Hunter, Train Simulator and Roadblasters to be racers. Personally, I'd like to think that quite a few games defy definition, but I'm sure he'll pigeonhole those three to his liking.

[Alex W.]

Marvellous counterpoint there, D-Side. Marvellous.

I'm off to set myself on fire.

I think what OMAHD is trying to say is that to a certain extent most games can be placed in genres- although you did a good job of finding three games with similar things in them (moving vehicles) which don't in any way share a genre. Many games simply don't fit in genres, but many do. The concept of a genre isn't universally applicable, but nor is it universally false.

Edited May 8, 2004 by Alex W.

[D-Side]

Marvellous counterpoint there, D-Side. Marvellous.

I'm off to set myself on fire.

Don't forget to die.

[D-Side]

Actually, I totally recind all my previous points. It appears that I have overlooked an existing genre called 'Games'. It seems as if we can bung everything in that catagory and have done with it.

[Alex W.]

Actually, I totally recind all my previous points. It appears that I have overlooked an existing genre called 'Games'. It seems as if we can bung everything in that catagory and have done with it.

Never sat through Nightbreed: The Interactive Movie, then?

[dr_lha]

Wow - this is still going on? I think that the only thing that has been conclusively shown by this thread is that D-Side fits well into the genre of "knob".

[Alex W.]

Wow - this is still going on? I think that the only thing that has been conclusively shown by this thread is that D-Side fits well into the genre of "knob".

Okay, now I actually am going to set myself on fire.

dr_lha, you're a good guy, but please feel free to exercise your right not to upset the apple cart.